303 and 304 Building Logistics.

[McAvoy]

We know that SGC had mining operations offworld which isn't a problem. The problem is how that ore got to the building sites of the 303 and 304. Cheyenne Mountain isn't exactly a place where it would allow a smooth flow of ore, processed or not to those building sites. Look at the hallways, they are narrow and the elevators we have seen are small. Presumably we could say there are larger elevators for this type of thing.

However, 303 and 304s are much larger than any wiki figure. 303 is between 370 to 450 meters long and 304 as long as 600 meters long. Both much larger overall than a Nimitz class carrier. If this ore came through the Stargate and even if they had a way of transporting the ore quickly, it would use alot of time with the gate being active in conjunction with other normal offworld operations.

The other thing too is the 303. It seems the 303 was built rather quickly. I mean obviously the 303 is after the failed 301 project, and presumably the 302 Project was either first or same time authorized as the 303 Project. Which means, the 303 was designed and built rather quickly.

My theory is that systems were designed and built as needed and resources were stocked up until enough technology was gathered and reverse engineered that a ship could be built.

The other thing too is where the 303 and presumably the 304s are built. The hanger where the 303 was built is several hundred feet underground so how did they dig all of that out without anyone knowing about something was going on in that area? The 303 hanger is also too small for the 304, but I guess they could have expanded upon it. It also seems that multiple 304s are built at the same time in a short amount of time as well. Which means more underground hangers had to built.

Thoughts?

[max_omega]

Well considering the fact that they were using Area 51, in a desert, where not a lot of people live, could conceal the amount of construction for digging it out. Or they began with natural underground caves and expanded from there.
As for getting the ore into than out of Cheyenne mountain, it was revealed in season 7 that they lowered the gate trough a tunnel above the gate room, they would also using something similar to get large amounts of raw ore out of the gate room, rather than using hallways and going through the front door.

Just my thoughts, good question.

P.S. I like your name. Is that in reference to James McAvoy who planned in Children of Dune?

[thekillman]

The other thing too is the 303. It seems the 303 was built rather quickly. I mean obviously the 303 is after the failed 301 project, and presumably the 302 Project was either first or same time authorized as the 303 Project. Which means, the 303 was designed and built rather quickly.

It is likely that the 303 was already in design before the 301. They could've finished most of the construct before the 302 was successfully taken into production.

Because of the experience with Goa'uld ship designs, a lot would've been deducted from that for the initial design. It seemed the biggest challenges were getting the Hyperdrive technology, and getting a sufficient powersource.

[McAvoy]

Well considering the fact that they were using Area 51, in a desert, where not a lot of people live, could conceal the amount of construction for digging it out. Or they began with natural underground caves and expanded from there.
As for getting the ore into than out of Cheyenne mountain, it was revealed in season 7 that they lowered the gate trough a tunnel above the gate room, they would also using something similar to get large amounts of raw ore out of the gate room, rather than using hallways and going through the front door.

Just my thoughts, good question.

P.S. I like your name. Is that in reference to James McAvoy who planned in Children of Dune?

It seems to be in the middle of nowhere as it makes sense when the Prometheus has to take off, something that large should be able to be seen for miles.

My name is my real name. Yes, I am related to James McAvoy, we share a great grandfather from the mid-1800s.

[thekillman]

It seems to be in the middle of nowhere as it makes sense when the Prometheus has to take off, something that large should be able to be seen for miles.

various people have confirmed that most of the stuff happening in orbit would be seen from the ground with a telescope, and some things even without. I mean, i can see the ISS flying over. an 11km and 3+ kilometer object would be noticeable with the naked eye.

[McAvoy]

Ok let's assume a few things. We have no idea how much the fictional Stargate metals weigh so let's assume they weigh as much as steel, which for a 1ft^3 (one cube 1x1x1ft.) weighs 480 pounds. Let's also assume that one shipment of Stargate metal is a pallet size (about 4 feet by 4 feet) and is four feet tall. That would make it weigh 13 tons per pallet.

Stargate can easily accomodate this and any crane above the Stargate can obviously too. However what about platform leading down from the Stargate. Probably not.

However, let's assume it can and it takes one minute to take that one 13 ton pallet of metal up to the surface and one minute to bring it down (probably faster than that anyway), and the Stargate remains open for the full 38 minutes. That means 19 13 pallets can be shipped up to the surface for a total of 247 tons. To make a Nimitz class carrier out of this metal, it would take 192 days if done once a day every day.

However can the mining operations offworld can sustain nearly 250 tons per shipment? Probably if there are more than one mining operation on each world.

Also, there could be more than one crane, two or three going at the same time and the ascent and descent times can be increased to less than a minute each. Which could increase the daily load to nearly 1,500 tons per day or have enough metal to build a Nimitz class carrier in 32 days.

The Stargate could be open more than once per day also. However this all depends on how much those miners can mine per day and how many mining operations there are.

Having the Stargate open like that costs alot of money because of the power requirements, though I suspect a naquadah generator or two can do that for a mere fraction of the money.

Refining the ore offworld would decrease (or require an increase in personnel) production of the metal. If it was done on Earth then it would require people nearly or complete aware of the Stargate because these metals are not found on Earth.

Not to mention the manufacture of certain parts that realistically speaking cannot be done entirely by Area 51 or SGC personnel. It would have to be spread out to civilian contractors who would only see a very small part of it where it would be assembled onsite somewhere.

It also seems that there are more than one 304 being built any one time too.

I guess if SGC acquired a few of those cargo ships, it would certainly be possible to ship far more in a nearly convoy like way, but would run the risk of being stolen by whoever.

[thekillman]

To make a Nimitz class carrier out of this metal, it would take 192 days if done once a day every day.

this is the part where i disagree.

Our starships are not made of Naquahdah and Trinium entirely. It's mostly steel, some of which is reinforced with Trinium. Furthermore, only specific components (shields, hyperdrive, etc) would require Naquahdah. There's probably naquahdah in the railguns, and in the main and secondary conduits.

I think a handful of shipments would be enough per starship.

However can the mining operations offworld can sustain nearly 250 tons per shipment? Probably if there are more than one mining operation on each world.

Because of the above, i would say the mining operations can manage just fine. Anyway, i think there's more operations than just the planet with the Unas mining for us. It's also possible we had other people shipping stuff to us as a thank you (Planet from "Need" ?), and we had other planets with naquahdah that we found.

Having the Stargate open like that costs alot of money because of the power requirements, though I suspect a naquadah generator or two can do that for a mere fraction of the money.

I don't think the electricity is the main bill. It's likely the amount of people on the base who are still active and present. During that one 38 minute dial, you have hundreds of people eating out of their noses.

Refining the ore offworld would decrease (or require an increase in personnel) production of the metal. If it was done on Earth then it would require people nearly or complete aware of the Stargate because these metals are not found on Earth.

Anyone with some sense of material science (every engineer) would be quick to find out it's not an earthly material.

A far more likely alternative to the original story is that a few companies had some disclosure, made safe by very fat NDA's. A select group or division of that company could be created to deal with the SGC contracts about alien materials.

Anyway, those ships also have a TON of earthly technology, so plenty of manufacturers could simply deliver such systems without ever knowing what it was for.

[McAvoy]

this is the part where i disagree.

Our starships are not made of Naquahdah and Trinium entirely. It's mostly steel, some of which is reinforced with Trinium. Furthermore, only specific components (shields, hyperdrive, etc) would require Naquahdah. There's probably naquahdah in the railguns, and in the main and secondary conduits.

Where was is said that they are mostly made of steel or any other earthly metal/composite?

SIF I am sure can be used to reinforce any natural weakness in the structure, though that seems like a waste of energy that can go somewhere else if you can reinforce it with a stronger or thicker metal. The point is, the 303 and 304 are not made of 100% of non-Earth metals, but a very large portion of it. The spaceframe, and outer hull (which could be fairly thick to be like armor) plus whatever that is needed. Keep in mind that even a Nimitz class carrier is not 100% steel as non-structural areas wood, or aluminium could be used. Kevlar is used as armor in key areas.

[thekillman]

The point is, the 303 and 304 are not made of 100% of non-Earth metals, but a very large portion of it.

we're not disagreeing on this.

I am learning to be an engineer (2 years to go), and i can tell that you dont NEED it to be all trinium. Most of the skeleton likely has varying amounts of trinium mixed in. Naquahdah for the advanced alien components, and the railguns.

Keep in mind that even a Nimitz class carrier is not 100% steel as non-structural areas wood, or aluminium could be used. Kevlar is used as armor in key areas.

yes, yes.


Anyway, back to the point. A 303/304 isn't made large out of naquahdah or trinium. So you don't need thousands of tonnes of alien material shipped through, so logistics in terms of gate-based ore transport would not be the bottleneck you said it would be.


I think that the Area 51 site is still... meh i don't know. something the size of Prometheus, it would be VERY noticeable that dozens of trucks move back and forth all day. Unless they somehow managed to dump it nearby inconspicuously. Area 51 is a famous spot, it's unthinkable that there wouldn't be some conspiracy theorist with a telescope putting every move on tape. So the dug up earth could never have made it far. Not sure what the effect of dumping the sand in the desert and waiting for the wind to blow it away would be. Also i don't know when the rock layer starts there. If they had to dig up rocks all the time, it would be an even more difficult thing to do.

[McAvoy]

we're not disagreeing on this.

I am learning to be an engineer (2 years to go), and i can tell that you dont NEED it to be all trinium. Most of the skeleton likely has varying amounts of trinium mixed in. Naquahdah for the advanced alien components, and the railguns.



yes, yes.


Anyway, back to the point. A 303/304 isn't made large out of naquahdah or trinium. So you don't need thousands of tonnes of alien material shipped through, so logistics in terms of gate-based ore transport would not be the bottleneck you said it would be.


I think that the Area 51 site is still... meh i don't know. something the size of Prometheus, it would be VERY noticeable that dozens of trucks move back and forth all day. Unless they somehow managed to dump it nearby inconspicuously. Area 51 is a famous spot, it's unthinkable that there wouldn't be some conspiracy theorist with a telescope putting every move on tape. So the dug up earth could never have made it far. Not sure what the effect of dumping the sand in the desert and waiting for the wind to blow it away would be. Also i don't know when the rock layer starts there. If they had to dig up rocks all the time, it would be an even more difficult thing to do.

If these ships are built like naval ships then absolutely yes, they would require thousands of tons of naquadah or trinium. Yes, the ship can have steel or even aluminium incorporated into the design for non-structural or even minor structural support.

Prometheus is much larger than 195 meters. The U-shaped superstructure has visible decks with windows that can give you a size. Using the 302s as a reference also would work. The Prometheus's size ranges from 300 to 450 meters. A Nimitz class carrier is about 330 meters in length and not nearly as massive in size, as the three hangers inside the carrier are of open space and very large.

In general in large naval ships like the Nimitz class, the hull plating and frame take up between 25% to 40% of the total weight of material.

[McAvoy]

Oh and I am studying to be an engineer myself. Civil Engineer.

[thekillman]

If these ships are built like naval ships then absolutely yes, they would require thousands of tons of naquadah or trinium. Yes, the ship can have steel or even aluminium incorporated into the design for non-structural or even minor structural support.

"ton" is a quite dangerous term here. A ton of naquahdah (1000kg) would be MUCH, MUCH less than 1000 kg of trinium.

Secondly, If they're built like Naval ships, they would still not require thousands of tons of the stuff. they'd be mostly steel.

Prometheus is much larger than 195 meters. The U-shaped superstructure has visible decks with windows that can give you a size. Using the 302s as a reference also would work. The Prometheus's size ranges from 300 to 450 meters. A Nimitz class carrier is about 330 meters in length and not nearly as massive in size, as the three hangers inside the carrier are of open space and very large.

again i do not disagree.


What we are disagreeing on is how much we think the ship needs. I'd estimate about 300-400 tons of naquahdah, and about 50 tons of trinium for a Prometheus class. In terms of volume, that's probably much more trinium than naquahdah.


Based upon the stargate, i would estimate a hyperdrive to weigh some 150-200 tons. I assume a similar weight for the shield generator. I would add a few dozen tons for the conduits and misc. parts, and that's about it.

Trinium would most likely be mixed with Steel. low carbon steel + trinium would likely result in a product rivaling the strongest steel forms. Even then, i think most of the ship can easily be made from steel. The reason we have all those space fancy nickel superalloys is because of the weight. With Naquahdah power and inertial dampeners, steel has all the quality you'll ever need for such a spaceship.

Trinium would thus likely be applied to the highest performance parts, namely the systems surrounding the Engines, Hyperdrive, Shields, Railguns and probably certain critical stress points in the frame.

[McAvoy]

I think underestimate how small 50 or even 400 tons really is. Take for example 1 ton of steel is roughly a 2x2x1ft. block. Steel weighs about 40 lbs. per one square foot, one inch thick.

However, I haven't yet heard anything where the Prometheus or the 304s being mostly constructed of steel. While it would certainly make the logisitics easier for the SGC to construct them, I still doubt they are mostly made of it.

Iron cannot be mixed with other elements like concrete. Carbon is unique that it does alot which is why iron becomes steel when mixed with carbon at certain percentages. So mixing trinium with steel probably won't work, just like you can't mix titanium with steel.

[thekillman]

I think underestimate how small 50 or even 400 tons really is. Take for example 1 ton of steel is roughly a 2x2x1ft. block. Steel weighs about 40 lbs. per one square foot, one inch thick.

Well, we don't precisely know the sizes of it all. I think the entire spaceship doesn't use that much naquahdah.

I mean, if you were to use Nq and Tr for all sorts of other applications the required tonnage would go up super-fast, but i think the engineers would've been rather conservative with the stuff.

Iron cannot be mixed with other elements like concrete. Carbon is unique that it does alot which is why iron becomes steel when mixed with carbon at certain percentages. So mixing trinium with steel probably won't work, just like you can't mix titanium with steel.

Concrete is something vastly different from steel.

Carbon is unique that it does alot which is why iron becomes steel when mixed with carbon at certain percentages.

Steel is only useful below about 3% carbon, and 0.03% carbon is common. Above that, and it's no longer a mix of iron and carbon, but a salt (as in chemistry) called Fe3C.

It strongly depends on the crystal configuration of Trinium. If it can't be mixed, it's probably in a composite.

[McAvoy]

Naquadah seems to be more used like fuel than as a structural material. Trinium seems to be the high strength material.

Not to mention weapons grade naquadah is extremely heavy as it took two Jaffas to carry a handful of bars.

You are also assuming that trinium would be extremely heavy. That would not be the case, as for example titanium can lighter than steel and comparable in strength.

The whole point is these two fictional materials is that we just don't know. We do not know if they can be made into a composite nor as an allow with steel or other Earthly metals.

Again, you can get a really good estimate on the size of the 303 by the row of windows on the U-shaped superstructure. It is an excellent judge of size because the U-shaped superstructure is built like a stack with each window row fitting neatly with each deck. You could also use the 302 as basis because they would have to fit within the hangers comfortably.

There is alot of assumptions that you have made. The whole point of the topic is to figure out of the logistics of SGC in building and upkeeping these ships. My guesstimates are just that guesttimates. I put out numbers just to show how it could be done. Look at the post: I said it all depended on how large and how many offworld mining operations there are.