So that was pretty much the most underhanded thing we've ever done

[blackluster]

And it still destroys Woolsey's character as well, who has undergone considerable character growth. This episode undoes all that. He point blank said they'd have nothing to do with it, showing us the Woolsey we know, standing up for morals and the right thing... only to do a 180 a few scenes later. Character growth? Why have that when you can have character regression and destruction?

Nah, I think the course of the ep and Woolsey's attitude at the end shows that Woolsey was simply tricked. Plain and simple. Telford had managed to convince him that Langara had already betrayed Earth, implying the diplomacy had failed. At the end, Woolsey sees first hand evidence that Telford suckered him with an imminent danger scenario which wasn't accurate. Woolsey didn't flip into a anti-hero, he was just deceived.

#1. The bomb didn't go off. Had it done so, I might have been a bit more convinced, but only a bit, because...

That doesn't really matter. The cold reality of that averted disaster is that the Lucian Alliance were willing and able to put a nuclear weapon on Homeworld Command's doorstep and Earth could nothing to stop it. Earth was only saved by two spectacularly lucky twists of fate: the pilot's incompetence and access to Varro. Only a moron wouldn't consider a very drastic change of approach to defense.

#2. The Langaran situation is irrelevant compared to Earth. Langara leads to Destiny, and whether we control Destiny, or the LA do, is ultimately irrelevant compared to the safety and security of Earth. Had it been a possibility that the LA could have used Langara somehow to attack Earth badly, then I might have seen the actions as somewhat justified. Because ultimately...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that Langara is Earth's primary source of naquadah, the fuel that powers Earth's warships and defenses. (ref. see Woolsey's comment on sovereign nations) If Langara sides with the Lucian Alliance in any capacity, Earth's ability to defend itself or exert influence in the galaxy becomes severely compromised. I'd say that is pretty significant justification to get involved.

#3. None of our lives are at risk(both Destiny and Earth), and thus there is no reason to panic and take these drastic actions. Not when disconnecting the gate from the core and moving it elsewhere for at least two months solves the problem. The LA would not only have to invade, but move the gate back and hook it back up to the core. That's quite a tall order to do, and would take considerable time. Time that we'd have to mount a counterattack alongside the Langarans.

In light of my response to point #2, there is very imminent threat in both the short and long term. In the short term because Earth is desperate for intelligence on what the Lucian Alliance is up to (their only way to stop a cloak ship currently seems to be to know it is coming) and in the long term because the fuel supply for Earth's 302s and 304s is under threat. Without those Earth couldn't defend its interests from a tel'tak, never mind a ha'tak.

In the long term sense, disconnecting the gate is pointless if Langara ends up siding with the alliance. If Earth can't work out what is being offered, they will find it very difficult to deal with the Lanagarans.

[Kaiphantom]

In the long term sense, disconnecting the gate is pointless if Langara ends up siding with the alliance. If Earth can't work out what is being offered, they will find it very difficult to deal with the Lanagarans.

You aren't thinking this line of though through; if the Langarans were going to side with the LA anyway, would good would a raid have done? What would you do if they allied? Go to war with Langara? If they are thinking about allying with the LA, do you really want to give them good reason to, like say.. I don't know... show how untrustworthy and how willing Earth is to risk the lives of your entire planet? Sure, let's push the Langarans into the LA's arms.

I mean, because that's obviously how I convince someone to like me, is to deceive them and rifle through their stuff. Remember, after the dialing succeeded, we were apparently planning to reveal everything. And even if we didn't, it would have been obvious they would have known, because we had two of their people on Destiny.

In short, our actions should have driven the Langarans into the arms of the LA, and would have regardless of whether it had worked. So, our options are:

#1. Raid the Langarans and then say, "We abused your trust for your own good! Now let's be friends!"

#2. Tell them to disconnect the gate for two months and let them poor over the data, with the condition that if they find it to be safe, we can protect them since we'd also be protecting a supply line.

Which do you choose? If you said #1, then I want to be your friend, because apparently you are okay with me abusing your trust. And I also wanna go through your stuff.

[blackluster]

You aren't thinking this line of though through; if the Langarans were going to side with the LA anyway, would good would a raid have done? What would you do if they allied? Go to war with Langara? If they are thinking about allying with the LA, do you really want to give them good reason to, like say.. I don't know... show how untrustworthy and how willing Earth is to risk the lives of your entire planet? Sure, let's push the Langarans into the LA's arms.

I mean, because that's obviously how I convince someone to like me, is to deceive them and rifle through their stuff. Remember, after the dialing succeeded, we were apparently planning to reveal everything. And even if we didn't, it would have been obvious they would have known, because we had two of their people on Destiny.

In short, our actions should have driven the Langarans into the arms of the LA, and would have regardless of whether it had worked. So, our options are:

#1. Raid the Langarans and then say, "We abused your trust for your own good! Now let's be friends!"

#2. Tell them to disconnect the gate for two months and let them poor over the data, with the condition that if they find it to be safe, we can protect them since we'd also be protecting a supply line.

Which do you choose? If you said #1, then I want to be your friend, because apparently you are okay with me abusing your trust. And I also wanna go through your stuff.

Your point is overly simplistic. The problem for Earth was the time.

In a scenario where Langara had accepted to side with the Lucian Alliance, before engaging in hostile actions, Earth has to know what the Lucian Alliance did to convince the Langarans. Earth has to know what was offered and what the terms were in order to engage in a possible peaceful resolution in dealing with the Lagarans. If the Lagarans had already sided with the Lucian Alliance, there is no way they would divulge this information which was Telford's suspicion after they hastily walked out of Mckay's presentation without even looking at it. Note they didn't listen and then say they wanted it checked, they simply walked out. Thus, Earth started acting under this worst case scenario option.

Assuming Langara joined, they would block any attempt to use their gate under trumped up diplomatic pretenses. Letting the Langarans take their gate out and study data not only lets doubt fester, but it limits Earth's ability to rapidly address a potentially fluid political situation. It would start there and eventually culminate in a rapid degradation of diplomatic ties until the supply line is cut. So, under this bad scenario, Earth isn't getting straight answers from Langara (who have kept their communications with the Alliance a secret from Earth), but Earth also doesn't want to outright attack Langara in the hopes that there is a way to salvage the relationship. To even begin to do that however, Earth has to know what the bargaining chips were so they can properly counter offer. Gaining that info calls for a covert mission which is exactly what they do.

When the Alliance moved on Langara and their communication was kept secret, the diplomatic relation between Langara and Earth was doomed to become strained. Coming off a near disastrous attack on Washington, there was no way Earth could sit back and let the situation play out. They had to know exactly where Langara stood immediately. When the cat got out the bag then sure, it looked like Earth were a bunch of paranoid bullies, but that was doomed to happen the moment Langara was not completely upfront about the details of their talks with the Lucian Alliance.

[Kaiphantom]

In a scenario where Langara had accepted to side with the Lucian Alliance, before engaging in hostile actions, Earth has to know what the Lucian Alliance did to convince the Langarans. Earth has to know what was offered and what the terms were in order to engage in a possible peaceful resolution in dealing with the Lagarans. If the Lagarans had already sided with the Lucian Alliance, there is no way they would divulge this information which was Telford's suspicion after they hastily walked out of Mckay's presentation without even looking at it. Note they didn't listen and then say they wanted it checked, they simply walked out. Thus, Earth started acting under this worst case scenario option.

Question: What does this gain them? If the Langarans eventually did side with the LA, Earth would know. The Langarans would most likely tell them. So, assuming this worst case scenario... what would you propose that Earth do about it?

Assuming Langara joined, they would block any attempt to use their gate under trumped up diplomatic pretenses.

I'm sorry, you'll have to explain this further, because I'm not seeing what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that Earth should somehow block the Langaran's gate? If so, how would they go about this? Repeatedly dial it? Are you willing to risk the Earth in war over a single planet that made a decision themselves?

Letting the Langarans take their gate out and study data not only lets doubt fester, but it limits Earth's ability to rapidly address a potentially fluid political situation.

Again, you'll have to clarify. Whose doubts fester? Why would doubt fester at all? Or are you saying it is somehow terrible that Earth wouldn't know what Langara decides for two months?

To even begin to do that however, Earth has to know what the bargaining chips were so they can properly counter offer. Gaining that info calls for a covert mission which is exactly what they do.

So you're saying that, if I want to be your friend, it is okay for me to go through all your stuff first?

When the Alliance moved on Langara and their communication was kept secret, the diplomatic relation between Langara and Earth was doomed to become strained. Coming off a near disastrous attack on Washington, there was no way Earth could sit back and let the situation play out. They had to know exactly where Langara stood immediately. When the cat got out the bag then sure, it looked like Earth were a bunch of paranoid bullies, but that was doomed to happen the moment Langara was not completely upfront about the details of their talks with the Lucian Alliance.

Ah, I see. So if your girlfriend doesn't tell you 100% everything you want to hear, it is okay to spy on her, go through her stuff, etc. And will you tell me who you are in real life? No? You aren't going to be upfront with the details that I want to hear? I guess this means you are okay with me tracking you down? Obviously, you were doomed to have someone go through all your stuff the moment you decided not to share information that someone else wanted.

[garhkal]

#4. A number of other precautions can be taken, such as spikes at 45 degree angles, or remote-controlled guns or flashbangs.

I like that one... Or layer the entrance area with razors!!

I think this is an important point, realizing that the events in Seizure didn't happen in a vacuum. After an attempted nuclear attack on Washington, did anyone reasonably expect even Jack to take anything other than a hard line attitude toward anything that the Lucian Alliance was up to? Bear in mind as well that had it not been for Destiny and Varro, we'd be talking about the destruction of Washington and Homeworld Command.

That is a good point. We did almost get are butts whupped by the LA< so you can bet the bigwigs were in a "SMASH SOMETHING NOW" mentality.

[blackluster]

Question: What does this gain them? If the Langarans eventually did side with the LA, Earth would know. The Langarans would most likely tell them. So, assuming this worst case scenario... what would you propose that Earth do about it?

Earth goes about getting intel. I'm pretty sure I said it about 3 times in the same post. If Langara had sided with the Alliance you cannot assume that they will tell you. If they have already violated your trust under what system of logic do you assume that anything you get out them is truthful? Unless your assertion that "Earth would know" is in the event that Earth receives a booby-trapped naquadah shipment or something equally catastrophic. Why sit around waiting for potentially lethal evidence that you've been betrayed? That makes no sense. Its like someone refusing to believe there is a traitor in his midst until he feels a knife sliding into his back so we can finally declare "so he was a traitor".

I'm sorry, you'll have to explain this further, because I'm not seeing what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that Earth should somehow block the Langaran's gate? If so, how would they go about this? Repeatedly dial it? Are you willing to risk the Earth in war over a single planet that made a decision themselves?

You've completely misunderstood. The idea is about more than the gate. If someone is no longer your friend, it'll become more and more apparent as they become less and less willing to help you, finding more and excuses until you finally get the message. In Langara's case, Earth requires a lot of them, the most recent thing being their gate. The worried line of reasoning sees the Lanagrans becoming more and more resistant to not only assisting with their gate, but in assisting in any matter whatsoever.

Again, you'll have to clarify. Whose doubts fester? Why would doubt fester at all? Or are you saying it is somehow terrible that Earth wouldn't know what Langara decides for two months?

Yes, it is incredibly dangerous. The fact that you don't is something I simply can't relate to, since it seems bizarrely lackadaisical to have no interest in the meddling of your primary enemy in the affairs of one of your primary allies. Letting that situation lie seems colossally foolish to me.

So you're saying that, if I want to be your friend, it is okay for me to go through all your stuff first?

I'm not sure why you persist with this asinine analogy when it has no application to the situation. You are already my friend, but then you went ahead and spoke with my sworn enemy behind my back, then when I ask you about it, you are not truthful. So are you really still my friend, or do you intend to assist my hated enemy in hurting me more effectively? I could beat you up or renounce your friendship, or I can attempt to uncover the source of your dishonesty to understand why you did what you did.

Ah, I see. So if your girlfriend doesn't tell you 100% everything you want to hear, it is okay to spy on her, go through her stuff, etc. And will you tell me who you are in real life? No? You aren't going to be upfront with the details that I want to hear? I guess this means you are okay with me tracking you down? Obviously, you were doomed to have someone go through all your stuff the moment you decided not to share information that someone else wanted.

Yes, because a galactic political situation where billions of lives are at stake is exactly the same like dealing with an untrustworthy girlfriend. Don't post like an idiot please. You can at least have the decency to craft proper analogies.

[Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble]

Question: What does this gain them? If the Langarans eventually did side with the LA, Earth would know. The Langarans would most likely tell them. So, assuming this worst case scenario... what would you propose that Earth do about it?

I'm sorry, you'll have to explain this further, because I'm not seeing what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that Earth should somehow block the Langaran's gate? If so, how would they go about this? Repeatedly dial it? Are you willing to risk the Earth in war over a single planet that made a decision themselves?

Again, you'll have to clarify. Whose doubts fester? Why would doubt fester at all? Or are you saying it is somehow terrible that Earth wouldn't know what Langara decides for two months?

So you're saying that, if I want to be your friend, it is okay for me to go through all your stuff first?

Ah, I see. So if your girlfriend doesn't tell you 100% everything you want to hear, it is okay to spy on her, go through her stuff, etc. And will you tell me who you are in real life? No? You aren't going to be upfront with the details that I want to hear? I guess this means you are okay with me tracking you down? Obviously, you were doomed to have someone go through all your stuff the moment you decided not to share information that someone else wanted.

Doplomicy is not like relationships.

As far as Earth was concerned Langara was working with the LA therefore spying on them is something any sane person would use in this situation. What O'Neill sanctioned was not like Hammond using a nuke, as far as Jack is concerned there is no risk to human life. Sending that team is like sending a special forces team to North Korea or something, we only entered the amoral zone when we didn't leave as soon as we found out they had refused to ally with the LA. You saying they should just disconnect the gate but I am sure the LA could bring another one from another planet.

[The_Asgard_live]

But he still helped.. Many a time.

Todd helped when it was in his own self-interest. He is our closest thing to an ally in the Wraith, and one of my favorite characters. But, that said, our best ally in human terms is a sociopath. A better example that the Wraith might be redeemable was the young female wraith from "Instinct". Though we don't know if their evilness is nature that she would grow into or nurture, the results were the same though. Her need to feed forced her to take human life. There is no getting around it, save for the experimentation.

There is one hidden gem about this episode. Hard core SGU fans have had to revisit SG1/SGA and be kinder. For 2 years now those shows have been cast as the red headed step children, full of fluff and pew-pew. Now, to justify the silly events of this episode, there are people digging deep to the find the depth and dark edginess of those 2 shows.

With a handful of episodes left there was no reason to turn O'neill, 2 "L"s into a richard. But, then again, that is the opinion of someone who thought it was completely unnecessary to kill off the Asgard rather than letting them live on in fans imagination indefinitely, doing Asgardy things... they are still alive you know.

[LoneStar1836]

Yes, because a galactic political situation where billions of lives are at stake is exactly the same like dealing with an untrustworthy girlfriend. Don't post like an idiot please. You can at least have the decency to craft proper analogies.

Uh, how are billions of lives at stake?

The Ori were a threat to billions and billions of people in the galaxy and they were disposed of. Conveniently mind you, but same universe in the same franchise. They were an actual threat. The LA is a bunch of drug dealing thugs...that so far are evidently not that committed to the "cause" because if they had actually wanted to blow up the Pentagon and DC, they'd have sent some zealot who was willing to die in a suicide bombing. Thing would have blown on impact and not been on a nice little timer. Or they'd have rigged it to blow on impact and not informed the pilot. What is one little pilot in this war if they are that ruthless?

I still don't find this LA threat all that believable. I found them to be a joke in SG-1. I know in SGU we are told that they are more organized and threatening, but I still don't take them that serious as a threat because prior threats to Earth were much much much greater, and by all rights Earth should have been an enslaved planet or reduced to burning rubble already, but we survived all of that that came before. The LA is still pretty much a convenient joke for me, because if the Gou'ald and the Ori couldn't even mount a descent attack on Earth, then there is no way I'm gonna believe the LA ever could. Could they eventually slip another bomb in? Sure, but Earth needs to pull back its defenses to defend Earth.

Hey if they are going to be so callous and willing to risk blowing up millions of people to dial some rust bucket of a ship (which has absolutely nothing to do with the defense of Earth), then they should be more than willing to say "screw you guys, I'm outa here" to lots of other planets in the Milky Way. Make deals with the LA and let them build their little empire and sell their magic space corn or whatever it is they are after. I doubt the Jaffa Nation is just going to roll over and be conquered again. What do humans on other worlds matter to us? Most of those backwater planets never had much to offer anyway. (Or do we just love those Medieval villages so much. ) Pull back and protect Earth and also throw lots of bribes and military protection to the Langarans (and other strategic allies) to keep them on our side since they have naquadria...and forcibly occupy them militarily if necessary to protect that resource, but this bs of risking a dial to Destiny is ridiculous. Millions of lives were very much at stake when they tried to do that. And if we are that callous and don't care about the people, then think of the naquadria Earth could be potentially destroying. It's not like it is abundant in the galaxy, and last I remember, we still used the stuff. Destiny and its mythical mission are not that valuable...in an immediate tangible and practical way.


Another thing about this ep that bothered me. Why would the Langanrans willingly ally themselves with the LA? What would they have to gain? What could the LA possibly promise them that they would so willingly let them use their gate in some experiment that blew up the previous planet. The Langaran government is probably still very shaky at best, and the different factions are probably still distrustful of one another. People on this planet hated each other and were willing to nuke one another less than 10 yrs earlier. I doubt they have kissed and made up to the point where all factions on the planet walk lockstep with each other in every decision and especially not with something as dangerous as SG-whatever or the LA was wanting to do.

[Cold Fuzz]

I think this is an important point, realizing that the events in Seizure didn't happen in a vacuum. After an attempted nuclear attack on Washington, did anyone reasonably expect even Jack to take anything other than a hard line attitude toward anything that the Lucian Alliance was up to? Bear in mind as well that had it not been for Destiny and Varro, we'd be talking about the destruction of Washington and Homeworld Command.

I think this point is the most important factor as to why Homeworld Command chose to go forward with the Langara mission. Earth's currently most powerful adversary attempts to nuke Washington. The attempt is narrowly thwarted. The threat level is very, very high. My goodness, someone just tried to nuke Washington.

Shortly soonafter, Earth receives news that this same adversary has possibly turned one of its allies against it. Of course O'Neill and Homeworld Command are going to make a decisive move to make sure that doesn't happen and so they try to be more pro-active. Aid for the Destiny becomes incidental in this context. The big picture is making sure Langara doesn't switch sides. As far as Homeworld Command is concerned, getting those supplies onto Destiny was the perfect pretext to go about snooping on Langara and truly assess whether or not our allies have turned against us.

Agreed. Most of what we have has been scavenged, taken or been found. Except for what the Asgard gave us, what have we really made ourselves?

How Earth got its technology is completely beside the point. Earth is now the de facto power in the Milky Way because it has the most powerful technology. Whether that technology was given by someone else, invented, or scrounged has no bearing on how Earth policy in the Milky Way is set. Earth is trying to fulfill the role of the Asgard and it's made some mistakes. Then again, so did the Asgard. So did the Ancients... and so has every major power that has ever tried to protect other civilizations while simultaneously protecting its own interests. As Bennett has very correctly pointed out, Earth isn't the white knight and (to me) neither were Earth's past benefactors.

Doplomicy is not like relationships.

As far as Earth was concerned Langara was working with the LA therefore spying on them is something any sane person would use in this situation.

Exactly right. Going to Langara to assess whether or not they've betrayed Earth was a very realistic espionage scenario. Of course the way the plan was executed was problematic but the ethical problems themselves were realistic too.

[Kaiphantom]

Doplomicy is not like relationships.

As far as Earth was concerned Langara was working with the LA therefore spying on them is something any sane person would use in this situation. What O'Neill sanctioned was not like Hammond using a nuke, as far as Jack is concerned there is no risk to human life. Sending that team is like sending a special forces team to North Korea or something, we only entered the amoral zone when we didn't leave as soon as we found out they had refused to ally with the LA. You saying they should just disconnect the gate but I am sure the LA could bring another one from another planet.

In one respect, you're right; diplomacy isn't like relationships. But the analogy still holds: you don't win the trust and friendship of another entity by violating them.

To answer your other points: Yes, O'Nell would have been very much aware the risk was NOT zero. He would have read the report on Project Arcturus, where Rodney was completely assured he could make that work as well. And even if we accept that the risk is zero, the Langarans don't know that. All they were asking for, was some time to verify the equations, a completely reasonable request.

And even if the LA brought a gate from another planet, they would still have to hook it up to the core. This isn't exactly like the Plug-n-Play cards you toss in your computer. That takes work and time. If we were so worried, I'm sure we could spare the Apollo or Sun Tzu to hang out nearby. Or the Odyssy or the Daedelus or the Hammond, or one of the other ships we should have built by now.

I think this point is the most important factor as to why Homeworld Command chose to go forward with the Langara mission. Earth's currently most powerful adversary attempts to nuke Washington. The attempt is narrowly thwarted. The threat level is very, very high. My goodness, someone just tried to nuke Washington.

I keep seeing people say this, and you know what I hear? "We were attacked on 9/11, so we have to attack Iraq!" The two statements don't equate, and I see a lot of dangerous logic in trying to do so. Just because we were attacked (and I use that word for the sake of argument), does not mean we need to start screwing over our allies.

It reeks of a paranoid man who was mugged in an ally, and decides that his enemies could be everywhere, so he goes after and attacks his friends because they could be one of the muggers!

Poorly thought-out rationale that results in the destruction of 15 years of Stargate character development. End of story.

[garhkal]

How Earth got its technology is completely beside the point. Earth is now the de facto power in the Milky Way because it has the most powerful technology. Whether that technology was given by someone else, invented, or scrounged has no bearing on how Earth policy in the Milky Way is set. Earth is trying to fulfill the role of the Asgard and it's made some mistakes. Then again, so did the Asgard. So did the Ancients... and so has every major power that has ever tried to protect other civilizations while simultaneously protecting its own interests. As Bennett has very correctly pointed out, Earth isn't the white knight and (to me) neither were Earth's past benefactors..

Is it?? The Gou'ald were the most powerful people around, and they were that way cause of the same as us.. getting it via scavenging. That and the inherient evilness in the gou'ald. BUT humans are equally as evil, without any screwy piece of tech making it so.

[blackluster]

Uh, how are billions of lives at stake?

The Ori were a threat to billions and billions of people in the galaxy and they were disposed of. Conveniently mind you, but same universe in the same franchise. They were an actual threat. The LA is a bunch of drug dealing thugs...that so far are evidently not that committed to the "cause" because if they had actually wanted to blow up the Pentagon and DC, they'd have sent some zealot who was willing to die in a suicide bombing. Thing would have blown on impact and not been on a nice little timer. Or they'd have rigged it to blow on impact and not informed the pilot. What is one little pilot in this war if they are that ruthless?

Earth alone is inhabited by over a billion people. Every person's life on Earth is at risk since one has no idea how far the Alliance is willing to go to enforce their ideals. Earth's allies are also at risk since there is no guarantee that the Alliance will follow a diplomatic course in every case.

I'm not sure where you came upon the idea that people are only serious if they send zealots. That is rather ridiculous. The Alliance is coldly calculating, but their manpower is of value. Attacking your enemy and persevering your trained soldiers is a mark of intelligence, not lack of resolve. Sending soldiers to needlessly die in war is an act of desperation. The Alliance are in no such position.

I still don't find this LA threat all that believable. I found them to be a joke in SG-1. I know in SGU we are told that they are more organized and threatening, but I still don't take them that serious as a threat because prior threats to Earth were much much much greater, and by all rights Earth should have been an enslaved planet or reduced to burning rubble already, but we survived all of that that came before. The LA is still pretty much a convenient joke for me, because if the Gou'ald and the Ori couldn't even mount a descent attack on Earth, then there is no way I'm gonna believe the LA ever could. Could they eventually slip another bomb in? Sure, but Earth needs to pull back its defenses to defend Earth.

lol, well your lack of imagination is hardly something worth discussing...

Hey if they are going to be so callous and willing to risk blowing up millions of people to dial some rust bucket of a ship (which has absolutely nothing to do with the defense of Earth), then they should be more than willing to say "screw you guys, I'm outa here" to lots of other planets in the Milky Way. Make deals with the LA and let them build their little empire and sell their magic space corn or whatever it is they are after. I doubt the Jaffa Nation is just going to roll over and be conquered again. What do humans on other worlds matter to us? Most of those backwater planets never had much to offer anyway. (Or do we just love those Medieval villages so much. ) Pull back and protect Earth and also throw lots of bribes and military protection to the Langarans (and other strategic allies) to keep them on our side since they have naquadria...and forcibly occupy them militarily if necessary to protect that resource, but this bs of risking a dial to Destiny is ridiculous. Millions of lives were very much at stake when they tried to do that. And if we are that callous and don't care about the people, then think of the naquadria Earth could be potentially destroying. It's not like it is abundant in the galaxy, and last I remember, we still used the stuff. Destiny and its mythical mission are not that valuable...in an immediate tangible and practical way.

Earth adopting an isolationist policy must certainly be an opinion in the room in any HWC briefing. In fact, I think it has even come up in SG1 with a senator proposing the complete removal of the stargate because it brings nothing but trouble. The problem in this case is that some of those human populations have things we need to defend ourselves, such as Langara. So while the 'screw them and let them take care of themselves' viewpoint may have good reasons going for it, it doesn't work in every case. Interestingly enough though, Earth has actually been doing this in isolated case as brainwashed Telford pointed out. The catch 22 of that is, that it has been driving more and more human populations into the arms of the Lucian Alliance as Earth is portrayed as a heartless superpower who just leaves people to die when it suits them. Sure, it is true in isolated cases, but there in lies the complexity of this kind of political situation. It mirrors the kind of conflicts we see today and it sure be clear to everyone that there is no easy solution. The problem in itself produces lots of intrigue and drama, which makes it ideal to incorporate into a tv show.

Another thing about this ep that bothered me. Why would the Langanrans willingly ally themselves with the LA? What would they have to gain? What could the LA possibly promise them that they would so willingly let them use their gate in some experiment that blew up the previous planet. The Langaran government is probably still very shaky at best, and the different factions are probably still distrustful of one another. People on this planet hated each other and were willing to nuke one another less than 10 yrs earlier. I doubt they have kissed and made up to the point where all factions on the planet walk lockstep with each other in every decision and especially not with something as dangerous as SG-whatever or the LA was wanting to do.

lol, don't you get it yet? This is one of the major reasons why Earth engaged in the covert operation. That is the big mystery in all this. What is the Lucian Alliance now in the position to offer a sovereign world that could make them think about betraying Earth after everything we've been through together? When you ponder on that for a moment, it would make any strategist very concerned. Everyone has a price as the saying goes, and if the Alliance have somehow managed to meet that price, Earth has some very serious problems.

[Cold Fuzz]

Is it?? The Gou'ald were the most powerful people around, and they were that way cause of the same as us.. getting it via scavenging. That and the inherient evilness in the gou'ald. BUT humans are equally as evil, without any screwy piece of tech making it so.

Uh, no. For one thing, the Asgard GAVE us their technology. We didn't scavenge it from them. That and considering that Earth was trying to liberate various planets from the Goa'uld, and then protect them from the likes of the Replicators, the Ori and Wraith, calling humans equally as evil as the Goa'uld is just outright false. Sure there have been a few black marks, like what happened with the experiments in Pegasus or the Langara debacle. However, after just one act of the ends justifying the means at Langara and you're now ready to write off humanity as being as evil as the Apophis, Anubis, and the System Lords? Please. Like Flying Officer Bennett said, a lot less black-and-white thinking on this situation would be a plus.

[morrismike]

Uh, no. For one thing, the Asgard GAVE us their technology. We didn't scavenge it from them. That and considering that Earth was trying to liberate various planets from the Goa'uld, and then protect them from the likes of the Replicators, the Ori and Wraith, calling humans equally as evil as the Goa'uld is just outright false. Sure there have been a few black marks, like what happened with the experiments in Pegasus or the Langara debacle. However, after just one act of the ends justifying the means at Langara and you're now ready to write off humanity as being as evil as the Apophis, Anubis, and the System Lords? Please. Like Flying Officer Bennett said, a lot less black-and-white thinking on this situation would be a plus.

One needs to look no further than 20th century Germany to see how much "evil" potential there is in the human race.There is a lot of good in us but the evil is just below the surface. I'm sure that Neville Chamberlain was fond of the "shades of gray" argument back in the day.