What is Rush up to?

[tinerin]

Because he honestly felt it was safe. But it's good to see that you blame Eli, Park, Brody, and Volker as well, for withholding their analysis of the planet.

It's NOT his call. He is legally obligated to report that information to his superior, Young, which he failed to do. This is not something you can argue because it is a fact for all DoD civilian employees. And how is anyone else responsible for Rush's actions? Where is your evidence that the other scientists withheld information from Young? Just because it wasn't shown in the episode it didn't happen? So what you're saying is that the Lucian Alliance have never actually visited Earth and that entire storyline is a lie? Wray hasn't reported to her IOA superiors all season because we haven't seen it actually happen?

Uhmm...show me a single piece of evidence that any other scientist withheld information about the planet; or any mission-critical information thoughout the entire series. It's probably happened on average more than once per episode with Rush. You say that I am making alot of assumptions and yet you're entire argument is based on a completely unfounded assumption. Back up this statement and then we can continue this legal debate because right now your primary argument is baseless. Almost every gate room shot since Rush discovered the bridge has been, two or more people in the room trying to contact Rush and then him appearing out of nowhere with some lame excuse as to why he didn't answer his radio.

p.s. saying that someone else did it too is NOT a valid legal argument anywhere on Earth.

[Blackhole]

His analysis that the planet's atmosphere posed a significant risk to the safety of the shuttle due to the damage that the shuttle has accumulated over time. Keep in mind that this is HIS personal analysis of the situation. If Volker had come to a different conclusion it still wouldn't have made a difference; it was still his job to report that information to Young.

No. But like I said, that information is irrelevant to the crimes I am charging him of so bringing it up is pointless.

Uhmm...all we know is that they have access to the raw sensor data which is not what I am disputing. It's possible that the bridge has access to special systems to analyze this data. Specialized consoles for handling very specific data in very specific ways exist on Atlantis so why not Destiny? If Rush's hallucinations are manifestations of the ship then that proves my point.

Uhmm...what did they not tell Young? Nowhere in the episode did it suggest that they came across information that showed the shuttle was in danger. Anyways, like I said, it was Rush's duty to report his PERSONAL findings to Young regardless of whether or not it contradicted with information provided by any other member of the crew. If you are working on a team of scientists who come to the conclusion that a new product is safe but you come to the conclusion that it isn't are you just going to keep your mouth shut or report it to your boss?

And the point from this quoted section is that it is ALOT of information. Far more than a single person can fully analyze in a short amount of time. Rush came across something in his analysis of the information and decided not to tell Young. Keep in mind that Rush's own hallucinations state that the planet's atmosphere would have posed no risk for a shuttle in perfect condition. Rush is the only person on the ship who has real knowledge of Ancient technology (or at least that's how he perceives himself) so therefore, no other scientists would have been able to see the threat without Rush's help, which is impossible if he's hiding from them. Show me evidence that Volker's console would have been able to simulate the shuttle's entry into the planet's atmosphere based on the shuttle's specifications and factoring in the damage that the shuttle has sustained (which is something Rush was able to do either manually or with the assistance of the bridge).

You keep pointing blame to other scientists on the ship but after the whole attempted mutiny incident, show me evidence of any other scientists withholding information from Young that they know could have a direct impact on the safety of the crew. I can't think of any whereas this is occuring in every episode since Rush discovered the bridge and has also happened in season 1.

I really don't know why you have a hard time understanding the legal concepts I'm trying to explain so I'll try it one more time from the start. Rush is a civilian working for the US military. Refusing to forward mission-critical information up the chain of command (in this case, Young) is a crime (this is not something you can argue). Legally, if a death results during the commission of a crime, it is felony murder or involuntary manslaughter (depending on the person's state of mind at the time); again this is not something you can argue as I posted the legal definitions of these crimes in my previous posts. Rush committed a crime that resulted in Riley's death, therefore Rush is guilty. Whether or not the death would have occured had Rush given Young the information is irrelevant under the law. Yes, Young is the one who gave the order but that is his job which he did; Rush's job was to provide information to Young that could affect a mission which he refused to do.

I think the issue you are having with understanding this situation is the fact that Rush works for the military, which requires him to follow an additional set of laws which normal civilians are not required to follow. Assuming you are not what is called a mandated reporter, if you are driving by your local Bank of America and see guys in ski masks carrying assault rifles enter the bank you are not legally required to report that to the police and you are not responsible for any deaths that may occur during the robbery (obviously, lying to the police if they decide to question you is a felony though). This is not the case for DoD civilian employees. For example, if I were a civilian working on a military base and saw a suspicious person hop the fence with a backpack and didn't report it to the base security, I would be liable for any damages that may result from my silence. Or a more work appropriate example, if I were a satellite imagery analyst and looking at infrared satellite imagery of what a special ops team thinks is an abandoned building that they can set up shop in and see that the building is full of peope but decide not to report it, and it turns out the guys in the building were heavily armed and prepared and killed the special ops team, I would be liable for their deaths.

Outstanding Analysis!

[morbosfist]

As I have repeatedly pointed out. Eli, Volker, Brody, and Park didn't report any dangers. Either they were all grossly negligent all at the same time not to notice the planet had been locked out and had severe atmospheric turbulence or the pertinent information for them to make these determinations was not present. Imo it is unreasonable to suggest that all four of them would have missed the critical information all at the same time. Therefore, the penitent information must not have been present.

For them to be negligent they would all have had to miss the information at the same time.

Is this what you are suggesting?

It is the only possible answer. The data has to be there, because the ship has sensors. The database is available on the spot. The fact that the planet is locked out is apparent by the gate being inaccessible. Therefore, they must have missed it, because there is no reason they should not have had it.

As I have already posted it is very unlikely any significant food or water was obtained on their visit for the reasons I have already indicated. Not enough time to forage and very limited food availability in a forest.

Since there was no mention of anyone starving in the last episode your assertion of the severity of their supplies in unfounded.

Since there's mention of them nearing starvation in "Aftermath" yet no issue is made of it after, one can only assume it is no longer an issue. They had three hours to work. That's long enough to get supplies for a short while.

No that isn't the only lie. He lied about having the command code, why Destiny stopped, the fact that the planet had been locked out by the ship. He didn't tell Young about the atmospheric danger and the fact that the million year old shuttle would likely not survive it. He also falsely accused Chloe of being responsible for the Command changes he was secretly performing to cover his ass and maintain his deception.

He didn't lie about having the command code. He simply hasn't told anyone the truth about it. He didn't even lie about why Destiny stopped, really. He says, "Well, it's not magic! As I've been doing all along, I've been telling Destiny any way I can how short of resources we are." It's just that, in this case, he can tell Destiny a lot more directly. He told the shuttle crew about the danger, and it's not a lie to not tell Young. His accusation of Chloe is the only other lie, and he didn't even make that one up, just went along with it. He maneuvered Young into making that determination.

For a first I would like to see you actually address the point I made above concerning the likelihood that Eli, Volker, Brody and Park actually missed crucial data on the planet.

See above.

We don't know what has happened to Telford yet. If Young had known that Destiny was under their control it is very likely that something could have been done to rescue him. Destiny didn't have to go into FTL. There would have been time to mount a rescue.

Mount a rescue with what? The shuttles they don't have, the ship that needed to jump to restore power, the space suits they have only two of to a ship that could only be unlocked from the inside? Explain this rescue.

Rush told Young that Chloe was responsible for the strange behaviors in Destiny that he was actually responsible for. That is about as clear a false accusation as is possible.

No, Young assumed that, and Rush offered an explanation. He went along with the false accusation knowing better. Not much of a distinction, but there it is.

Your argument is ridiculous. Rush made a catastrophic mistake that cost them the shuttle and Riley's life. If Rush hadn't made the mistake circumstances would be far better on Destiny and Telford would likely also have survived.

Or everyone would have starved due to lack of food. Plus, does the seeder look like it has a shuttle dock to you?

So you are suggesting that all four all at the same time overlooked the sensor data on the planet?

They had to.

The fact that nothing concerning supplies was mentioned could just as easily mean that their supply situation wasn't nearly as desperate as you are trying to make it out as. I have spend extensive time hiking in the forest and I can say with absolute certainty that three hours is no where near enough time to successfully forage, especially if you have to carry it out on foot. Water weighs over 8 pounds per gallon, how much do you think a few people can carry?

Food was short, not water.

[Kaiphantom]

You consistently ignore arguments that you can counter. I can only assume that you are ignoring them or are unable to understand.

Look, in a debate it's polite to assume the other parties are making a good-faith effort to answer your points. This kind of flamebaiting isn't conducive to a civilized discourse. If you have trouble deciding what is appropriate to say, just imagine me saying it to you, and decide whether you'd have a problem with that. Ie, if I said, "You consistently ignore arguments that you can't counter, thus I'm assuming you are ignoring them or unable to understand." Now, how do you feel?

As I have repeatedly pointed out. Eli, Volker, Brody, and Park didn't report any dangers. Either they were all grossly negligent all at the same time not to notice the planet had been locked out and had severe atmospheric turbulence or the pertinent information for them to make these determinations was not present. Imo it is unreasonable to suggest that all four of them would have missed the critical information all at the same time. Therefore, the penitent information must not have been present.

For them to be negligent they would all have had to miss the information at the same time.

Is this what you are suggesting?

I am suggesting that you if you are going to hold Rush accountable for not informing Young of the planetary conditions, then you must also hold the others accountable as well, because we have been shown several times in the past that the core room can access a multitude of data regarding planets. Ergo, they had access to 99% of the data that Rush did. There is no "Oh, I only hold Rush accountable and not them" because that would be flying in the face of heavily established evidence. You'd have to ignore at least 6 previous episodes.

As I have already posted it is very unlikely any significant food or water was obtained on their visit for the reasons I have already indicated. Not enough time to forage and very limited food availability in a forest.

They'd only need one stream to get water (can always filter it out later). And I'm not saying they got food and water, just that the possibility exists. I mean, they mentioned that supplies were a problem at least 4 times in Aftermath. Now, here we are two episodes later and not a peep about them. I find it rather... odd. If it was that bad in Awakening, then it should be an ongoing issue that deserves at least a line or two. I suspect that, if no one says anything the next few episodes, then odds are good they got some.

Probability. That's what this is all about.

Since there was no mention of anyone starving in the last episode your assertion of the severity of their supplies in unfounded.

I'm sorry, did you watch Aftermath, where they mention several times how bad it is? The LA chick said they were underfed. Wray said supplies were low and that they could all starve. Brody said the meager amount they got was hardly worth sitting down for. And on and on.

No that isn't the only lie. He lied about having the command code, why Destiny stopped, the fact that the planet had been locked out by the ship. He didn't tell Young about the atmospheric danger and the fact that the million year old shuttle would likely not survive it. He also falsely accused Chloe of being responsible for the Command changes he was secretly performing to cover his ass and maintain his deception.

I'll give you the codes. But we don't really know if Chloe did something; after all, she's been wandering around fiddling with things for awhile, and clearly knows things that Rush doesn't. As for the planet, I'll leave that to the other sections of our discussions (although I answered that above).

For a first I would like to see you actually address the point I made above concerning the likelihood that Eli, Volker, Brody and Park actually missed crucial data on the planet.

Answer already. Please consult: Darkness/Light, Life, Faith, and Incursion for further answers. If you need clarification, I can quote you all the sections, but I'm assuming you can find the transcripts on your own, and there's no need to make this post bigger.

Again, as a first I would like you to address the point I am making below. How does your dubious trial experience with entrapment have absolutely anything to do with Young's situation?

Entrapment means to “lure into performing a previously or otherwise uncontemplated illegal act”. How does entrapment in any possible fashion apply when Rush chose to withhold crucial information from Young? How does it reduce or prevent any legal culpability on Rush's part?

It wasn't so much Entrapment itself, as I was using it in the bounds of the case I was a part of. As I have mentioned before, legally speaking, the FBI has strict guidelines they have to follow when they baiting a suspect. It's to prevent them from walking up to you, whispering in your ear that they have your family hostage, and in order to save them, you must say out loud that you wnat to buy a hitman to kill someone. And then arresting you for conspiracy to commit murder. Understand why that is a bad thing?

If so, we can move on. The basic principle is this: They can open the door, show you an opportunity to commit a crime. But they can't coerce you in ANY way. They can tell you a shop is empty and easy pickings to be robbed. Or that they have a hitman who can kill someone for $30,000. The point remains that it has to be your choice as to whether you fall prey to the temptation or not.

How does this fit in with Young and Rush?

Because, legally speaking, all Rush did was open the door. He presented the opportunity. Just like the FBI in the case I was a part of did, they merely provided the chance, and didn't coerce in any way. Young was completely okay to say yes or no; that's the important part. The subject has to be free to say no if they want to. Because Young had a clear choice, like the man in the trial I was a part of, that means all fault lies with him. You saying Rush is at fault, is like blaming the FBI for using an undercover agent to pose as a hitman. I can say "It's the FBI's fault I paid that guy to kill someone!" all I want, but I'd be laughed out of court. I had the choice, therefore all blame lies with me. I could have said, "No, I don't want you to kill someone afterall." And that would have been that; they wouldn't have been able to charge me with a crime.

Is this clear?

We don't know what has happened to Telford yet. If Young had known that Destiny was under their control it is very likely that something could have been done to rescue him. Destiny didn't have to go into FTL. There would have been time to mount a rescue.

It's easy to look back in hindsight, when we're sitting here in our comfy chairs, and have all the time in the world. Can you not cut any slack to people under pressure due to time constraints and a very real threat of being stranded in space? It was Telford's choice to stay, and Young allowed him to. Young could have enforced the order for him to withdraw. And yet, despite that, I don't blame Telford nor young, nor Rush. Each did what they thought was right to save the ship and the people on it. Telford took a risk, and it backfired. Just like Scott's crew took a risk and it backfired on Riley. You can't expect everyone to come back okay every time they go out and do something risky.

Rush told Young that Chloe was responsible for the strange behaviors in Destiny that he was actually responsible for. That is about as clear a false accusation as is possible.

It's possible, but then again, we don't have full information as to whether she did have something to do with it. Not saying you're wrong, just that we don't know. I assume we'll find out in the future.

Your argument is ridiculous. Rush made a catastrophic mistake that cost them the shuttle and Riley's life. If Rush hadn't made the mistake circumstances would be far better on Destiny and Telford would likely also have survived.

Just like if Young hadn't made his mistake. Or the SGC hadn't made their mistake in putting Telford among the LA, to where he could be brainwashed and lead them straight to Icarus. Because the chain of blame stretches out quite a bit: Young -> Rush -> Brainwashed Telford -> SGC -> Ancients, etc. You want to skip the Young step and go straight to Rush, but you can't do that. If you're gonna assign blame, you at least have to start with the nearest decision that led to the situation. That would be Young's order.

So you are suggesting that all four all at the same time overlooked the sensor data on the planet?

Pretty much. As I said, though, I find it pretty stupid in general, and thus a plot hole. Just like I found Young's actions stupid with regards to the LA incursion. Of course, there, people wanted to write off Young being stupid as a human thing (and not blame him for the ship being taken over).

The fact that nothing concerning supplies was mentioned could just as easily mean that their supply situation wasn't nearly as desperate as you are trying to make it out as. I have spend extensive time hiking in the forest and I can say with absolute certainty that three hours is no where near enough time to successfully forage, especially if you have to carry it out on foot. Water weighs over 8 pounds per gallon, how much do you think a few people can carry?

Do you really want me to quote Aftermath to you to show how desperate they thought their situation was? As for water, they seemed to have lugged quite a bit from the Faith planet okay. Those water drums they have can be carried by two military personnel easily enough.

[Kaiphantom]

It's NOT his call. He is legally obligated to report that information to his superior, Young, which he failed to do. This is not something you can argue because it is a fact for all DoD civilian employees. And how is anyone else responsible for Rush's actions? Where is your evidence that the other scientists withheld information from Young? Just because it wasn't shown in the episode it didn't happen? So what you're saying is that the Lucian Alliance have never actually visited Earth and that entire storyline is a lie? Wray hasn't reported to her IOA superiors all season because we haven't seen it actually happen?

Yes, a lot happens off camera that we don't see. We don't see it, because it is assumed to be not important. But we aren't referring to that; we are referring to what is happening on camera, because that is what you need to back up things.

And let's be clear here: YOU are the one making the unfounded assumptions. Our line has been: "we don't know, but based on past evidence, this seems to be the likely course." You are the one saying, "It has to be this way, no ifs, ands, or buts." So, you are required to present evidence to show why we should ignore the norm, and consider your new theory.

IE, if we've been shown several times in the past that planetary information is available from the core room, then that becomes the norm. If you believe it isn't, then it is your job to present evidence, which you haven't done yet.

Uhmm...show me a single piece of evidence that any other scientist withheld information about the planet; or any mission-critical information thoughout the entire series. It's probably happened on average more than once per episode with Rush. You say that I am making alot of assumptions and yet you're entire argument is based on a completely unfounded assumption. Back up this statement and then we can continue this legal debate because right now your primary argument is baseless. Almost every gate room shot since Rush discovered the bridge has been, two or more people in the room trying to contact Rush and then him appearing out of nowhere with some lame excuse as to why he didn't answer his radio.

You are confusing two things. The legal stuff refers to Rush creating the opportunity, and Young's decision to act on it. As far as your "show me somewhere else where people withheld information" that is irrelevant. I don't believe the scientists did; I was only bringing up the point to showcase how nonsensical blaming Rush was. I personally feel it was a plot hole that they didn't, but failing that, that they were stupid enough to miss that information. In short, a bad episode in general.

[Kaiphantom]

It is the only possible answer. The data has to be there, because the ship has sensors. The database is available on the spot. The fact that the planet is locked out is apparent by the gate being inaccessible. Therefore, they must have missed it, because there is no reason they should not have had it.

Since there's mention of them nearing starvation in "Aftermath" yet no issue is made of it after, one can only assume it is no longer an issue. They had three hours to work. That's long enough to get supplies for a short while.

He didn't lie about having the command code. He simply hasn't told anyone the truth about it. He didn't even lie about why Destiny stopped, really. He says, "Well, it's not magic! As I've been doing all along, I've been telling Destiny any way I can how short of resources we are." It's just that, in this case, he can tell Destiny a lot more directly. He told the shuttle crew about the danger, and it's not a lie to not tell Young. His accusation of Chloe is the only other lie, and he didn't even make that one up, just went along with it. He maneuvered Young into making that determination.

See above.

Mount a rescue with what? The shuttles they don't have, the ship that needed to jump to restore power, the space suits they have only two of to a ship that could only be unlocked from the inside? Explain this rescue.

No, Young assumed that, and Rush offered an explanation. He went along with the false accusation knowing better. Not much of a distinction, but there it is.

Or everyone would have starved due to lack of food. Plus, does the seeder look like it has a shuttle dock to you?

They had to.

Food was short, not water.

Outstanding Analysis!

Most of your replies are BS and you are arguing nits.

By the way, this would be an example of someone not arguing the points, thus showing he has no counters. You know, what you accused me of earlier? Either answer the man or declare that you have no interest in arguing further. We can respect that decision, at least.

[tinerin]

Yes, a lot happens off camera that we don't see. We don't see it, because it is assumed to be not important. But we aren't referring to that; we are referring to what is happening on camera, because that is what you need to back up things.

And let's be clear here: YOU are the one making the unfounded assumptions. Our line has been: "we don't know, but based on past evidence, this seems to be the likely course." You are the one saying, "It has to be this way, no ifs, ands, or buts." So, you are required to present evidence to show why we should ignore the norm, and consider your new theory.

IE, if we've been shown several times in the past that planetary information is available from the core room, then that becomes the norm. If you believe it isn't, then it is your job to present evidence, which you haven't done yet.



You are confusing two things. The legal stuff refers to Rush creating the opportunity, and Young's decision to act on it. As far as your "show me somewhere else where people withheld information" that is irrelevant. I don't believe the scientists did; I was only bringing up the point to showcase how nonsensical blaming Rush was. I personally feel it was a plot hole that they didn't, but failing that, that they were stupid enough to miss that information. In short, a bad episode in general.

You have to realize that humans have a very limited understanding of science and two scientists looking at the exact same data can come to different conclusions which is why they're supposed to be working together. Even if the data existed not every single scientist could have come to the same conclusion in the same amount of time as Rush. You've yet to provide a single piece of evidence to counter my legal argument other than the other scientists hid information from Young too. Rush committed a crime (a fact) that resulted in a death (a fact) therefore Rush is legally responsible for the death.

The other scientists don't matter at all legally. Even if they had come to the same conclusion as Rush and told Young, that still wouldn't change the fact that Rush withheld information and he would still be liable for Riley's death. If the other scientists withheld information, they would also be liable.

[morbosfist]

You have to realize that humans have a very limited understanding of science and two scientists looking at the exact same data can come to different conclusions which is why they're supposed to be working together. Even if the data existed not every single scientist could have come to the same conclusion in the same amount of time as Rush.

"Hey look, the atmosphere is spinning several times faster than the planet which it's on." If we can tell this now (in real life) by looking at Venus, I think a bunch of scientists can spot the same phenomenon on a planet using advanced sensor technology.

You've yet to provide a single piece of evidence to counter my legal argument other than the other scientists hid information from Young too. Rush committed a crime (a fact) that resulted in a death (a fact) therefore Rush is legally responsible for the death.

They didn't hide any information, but they did fail to make a proper risk assessment both before and during the mission.

The other scientists don't matter at all legally. Even if they had come to the same conclusion as Rush and told Young, that still wouldn't change the fact that Rush withheld information and he would still be liable for Riley's death. If the other scientists withheld information, they would also be liable.

"Looks safe." *disaster* "Guess not." Yeah, this is the kind of thing people would get blamed for.

[Gollumpus]

So, as I'm reading the "pro-Rush" side of this argument:

1.) Rush knows what is best, always.

2.) Rush is not culpable for anything negative which occurs due to his actions. Any negative results are due to the actions or inaction of any of the "unqualified" people on board. Further, Rush is allowed to not accept any blame or to even admit to himself that there might be fault on his part.

3.) Rush has extensive knowledge of how Destiny works, ergo, he should be allowed to do what he wants, with minimal interruption and everything will be alright.

4.) Rush is the only person on Destiny (and possibly in the entire human race) who is qualified to know of the existence of the bridge let alone be allowed to set foot on it.


I find it to be an extreme irony that since they've arrived on Destiny, almost everything being spoken of which is a negative to Rush is a direct result of his own actions:

a.) The fact that there are all of these unqualified people on board is because of an action by Rush. I do not place blame or suggest wrong-doing on his part, but rather that he made a conscious decision to dial the Destiny gate rather than any other gate within the Milky Way galaxy.

b.) That these people are unable to understand systems as well as Rush is because Rush refuses to supply them with any information. Rather than help to bring others up to (almost) his speed, Rush is permitted to belittle them, keep them un-informed, and generally be unpleasant enough to deter anyone from wanting to bother him with questions.

I suggest that Rush is extremely selfish in his actions. He is unwilling to involve anyone in his pursuit of controlling Destiny. And this could lead to the greatest irony of all, for should Rush become incapacitated at a critical juncture (say due to overwork and lack of sleep), an opportunity for control of Destiny could be lost... but that would be the fault of everyone else, right?

regards,
G.

[Achilles]

Come on! Have you forgotten why everyone is stranded on Destiny a universe away from their family and friends? He wasn't tweaked by aliens. Cracking the code presented Rush with an opportunity to further his agenda - and true to his arrogant and self-serving core personality he took it; and damn the consequences to everyone else.

Exactly!! I see there are quite a large number of Rush sympathizers here ha yes he can rationalize it was for the good of the crew, but just because he hid it from them, and POSSIBLY if they did discover it they could get themselves into far more trouble than they are, but lets not forget that he ISN'T doing it for the sake of the crew, he's doing it for his own selfish agenda, he is a scientist but the worst kind of scientist one that would rationalize the sacrifice of other human lives just to say he is saving more in the process. If he was caught he would say it was for everyone's good but it is only for the good of the ship, he loves the ship, I doubt he would even turn the ship around or if it meant sacrificing the ship he wouldn't even send them home, scientific discovery is worth more to him and his own selfish quest to figure out things that are beyond him. Face it! He's obsessed! He wants to know where this ship is going more than anything and why the Ancients sent it from Earth and didn't hitch a ride instead of staying behind.

[Bagpuss]

Just a little reminder to all : heated discussion of Rush's actions and motivations is fine.He's controversial and this is an open discussion.

It's a good time to point out though ,that ALL of you are entitled to your opinion,and anyone who defends Rush as a sympathiser or anyone who blames him for the situations is still entitled to that opinion without being singled out.

Lose the finger-pointing and dismissal of others' opinions ,thanks !

[SBN]

Just a little reminder to all : heated discussion of Rush's actions and motivations is fine.He's controversial and this is an open discussion.

It's a good time to point out though ,that ALL of you are entitled to your opinion,and anyone who defends Rush as a sympathiser or anyone who blames him for the situations is still entitled to that opinion without being singled out.

Lose the finger-pointing and dismissal of others' opinions ,thanks !

LOL, this discussion did get a little heated, but hot damn if it wasn't one of the most interesting discussions I have read in ages here.

P.s....Your all wrong. Sorry, that was the only side left I could join.

[Achilles]

Lol it did, didn't it? especially on pages 8-10 I think haha I spent this whole time reading it, a good debate keeps the blood pressure up, luckily I can raise and lower mine at will...I know what you're thinking, "why would you want to raise it??" .. Simple, so I can lower it again.

I think Rush is trying to figure out how to Lose friends and Alienate people

[Blackhole]

Look, in a debate it's polite to assume the other parties are making a good-faith effort to answer your points. This kind of flamebaiting isn't conducive to a civilized discourse. If you have trouble deciding what is appropriate to say, just imagine me saying it to you, and decide whether you'd have a problem with that. Ie, if I said, "You consistently ignore arguments that you can't counter, thus I'm assuming you are ignoring them or unable to understand." Now, how do you feel?

It may be polite in a debate to assume the other party is making a good faith effort to answer their points but the fact remains I answer all your points and you don't answer mine.

I am suggesting that you if you are going to hold Rush accountable for not informing Young of the planetary conditions, then you must also hold the others accountable as well, because we have been shown several times in the past that the core room can access a multitude of data regarding planets. Ergo, they had access to 99% of the data that Rush did. There is no "Oh, I only hold Rush accountable and not them" because that would be flying in the face of heavily established evidence. You'd have to ignore at least 6 previous episodes.

I have never suggested that I am not holding Eli, Volker, Brody and Park accountable. I am suggesting that to suggest they all overlooked vital information all at the same time to be unreasonable. They have never done it in the past why should they do it now. It is far more likely that the pertinent information was not available at the time.

They'd only need one stream to get water (can always filter it out later). And I'm not saying they got food and water, just that the possibility exists. I mean, they mentioned that supplies were a problem at least 4 times in Aftermath. Now, here we are two episodes later and not a peep about them. I find it rather... odd. If it was that bad in Awakening, then it should be an ongoing issue that deserves at least a line or two. I suspect that, if no one says anything the next few episodes, then odds are good they got some.

Probability. That's what this is all about.

Anyone who has ever hiked in a forest knows foraging for food is extremely difficult and very time consuming. There aren't abundant fruit tree around to pick from. Besides the shuttle crew had less than six hours to deal with a dying man and uncover a buried vertical gate covered in rocks and dirt. There is absolutely no way any meaningful food would have been found. Water weighs over 8 pounds per gallon. Even with a well constructed backpack how much do you think one person could carry? How many backpacks and containers do you think they had with them?

I am talking about probability and there isn't any chance of getting any meaningful food or much water.

I'm sorry, did you watch Aftermath, where they mention several times how bad it is? The LA chick said they were underfed. Wray said supplies were low and that they could all starve. Brody said the meager amount they got was hardly worth sitting down for. And on and on.

I am not disagreeing that supplies were short just that nothing meaningful would have able to have been obtained on the planet.

I'll give you the codes. But we don't really know if Chloe did something; after all, she's been wandering around fiddling with things for awhile, and clearly knows things that Rush doesn't. As for the planet, I'll leave that to the other sections of our discussions (although I answered that above).

We don't know what Chloe has done but we do know she wasn't responsible for anything Rush had done; which is what he told Young.

Answer already. Please consult: Darkness/Light, Life, Faith, and Incursion for further answers. If you need clarification, I can quote you all the sections, but I'm assuming you can find the transcripts on your own, and there's no need to make this post bigger.

See above

It wasn't so much Entrapment itself, as I was using it in the bounds of the case I was a part of. As I have mentioned before, legally speaking, the FBI has strict guidelines they have to follow when they baiting a suspect. It's to prevent them from walking up to you, whispering in your ear that they have your family hostage, and in order to save them, you must say out loud that you wnat to buy a hitman to kill someone. And then arresting you for conspiracy to commit murder. Understand why that is a bad thing?

If so, we can move on. The basic principle is this: They can open the door, show you an opportunity to commit a crime. But they can't coerce you in ANY way. They can tell you a shop is empty and easy pickings to be robbed. Or that they have a hitman who can kill someone for $30,000. The point remains that it has to be your choice as to whether you fall prey to the temptation or not.

How does this fit in with Young and Rush?

Because, legally speaking, all Rush did was open the door. He presented the opportunity. Just like the FBI in the case I was a part of did, they merely provided the chance, and didn't coerce in any way. Young was completely okay to say yes or no; that's the important part. The subject has to be free to say no if they want to. Because Young had a clear choice, like the man in the trial I was a part of, that means all fault lies with him. You saying Rush is at fault, is like blaming the FBI for using an undercover agent to pose as a hitman. I can say "It's the FBI's fault I paid that guy to kill someone!" all I want, but I'd be laughed out of court. I had the choice, therefore all blame lies with me. I could have said, "No, I don't want you to kill someone afterall." And that would have been that; they wouldn't have been able to charge me with a crime.

Is this clear?

Threat is never involved in entrapment. If a law enforcement office threatens you to commit a crime that isn't entrapment it is coercion. Entrapment involves inducement or persuasion never coercion. If someone induces or persuades someone to commit a crime they had no intention of doing so from the beginning that is entrapment. A good example would be if a women officer approaches a man on the street and hits on him to spark interest. Once aroused she then tells him that he is going to have to pay for her company. If he does so and she then arrests him that would be entrapment.

Legally or otherwise entrapment wasn't involved in Young and Rush's situation in any fashion whatsoever. Entrapment involves inducement or persuasion to commit a crime. Rush didn’t open the door in any way for Young. Trying to draw an analogy from your make believe trial makes absolutely no sense. As tinerin has so skillfully described, it is Young’s job to make decisions and it is the scientists’ jobs to provide him with accurate and truthful information so he can make the best possible decision. The salient point you have steadfastly refused to acknowledge is Rush had a legal obligation to provide truthful and accurate information to him. He refused and as such committed a crime. As a consequence the shuttle crashed and a life was lost. Legally Rush is now held responsible for that loss of life and property. Trying to muddy the waters with your nonsensical and made up legal gobbledygook won't make Rush any less guilty.

It's easy to look back in hindsight, when we're sitting here in our comfy chairs, and have all the time in the world. Can you not cut any slack to people under pressure due to time constraints and a very real threat of being stranded in space? It was Telford's choice to stay, and Young allowed him to. Young could have enforced the order for him to withdraw. And yet, despite that, I don't blame Telford nor young, nor Rush. Each did what they thought was right to save the ship and the people on it. Telford took a risk, and it backfired. Just like Scott's crew took a risk and it backfired on Riley. You can't expect everyone to come back okay every time they go out and do something risky.

Again, as tinerin has pointed out so skillfully several times:

“Just to be clear about my point, Rush's ACTION was his decision to not notify Young/Volker/Park about his analysis of the sensor data that showed a significant risk to the shuttle. Under the circumstances, this ACTION would be legally considered to be a crime. A death occurred as a result of the commission of this crime. Under US laws, this fits the definition of felony murder (or involuntary homicide due to his mental state). Whether or not this death would have occurred had Rush notified the crew is irrelevant to the laws that I am stating.”

It's possible, but then again, we don't have full information as to whether she did have something to do with it. Not saying you're wrong, just that we don't know. I assume we'll find out in the future.

What we do know is Rush lied and falsely accused her and Young locked her up for it.

Just like if Young hadn't made his mistake. Or the SGC hadn't made their mistake in putting Telford among the LA, to where he could be brainwashed and lead them straight to Icarus. Because the chain of blame stretches out quite a bit: Young -> Rush -> Brainwashed Telford -> SGC -> Ancients, etc. You want to skip the Young step and go straight to Rush, but you can't do that. If you're gonna assign blame, you at least have to start with the nearest decision that led to the situation. That would be Young's order.

See above, this point is irrelevant.

Pretty much. As I said, though, I find it pretty stupid in general, and thus a plot hole. Just like I found Young's actions stupid with regards to the LA incursion. Of course, there, people wanted to write off Young being stupid as a human thing (and not blame him for the ship being taken over).

I have always maintained that Young made a serious error in judgment and was responsible for the loss of the ship.

Do you really want me to quote Aftermath to you to show how desperate they thought their situation was? As for water, they seemed to have lugged quite a bit from the Faith planet okay. Those water drums they have can be carried by two military personnel easily enough.

See above, again, the desperateness of their supply situation in not relevant. Young committed a crime withholding information from Young and is legally responsible for the consequences of that action.

[garhkal]

-young is the commanding officer and should be kept in the loop, he made mistakes and is a bad commander in many aspects but since he has no knowledge of technical matters he would trust rush and the other scientists unconditionally, especially if assisted by earth experts

rush is just a little kid/dog that found a shiny toy/bone and doesn't want to share

When has young trustd their knowledge up till now?? see how he overrode eli when he said the gate home would not have worked even after eli went over it 7 or more times? Or when they were firing on the blue's ship and eli mentioned about a power overload?

Does everyone else know if it worked or not? Rush told Chloe it didn't, but we don't know if everyone else knows that or not. Logically speaking, they'd be quite aware if it worked or not very shortly, as I suspect they would observe her and see if she goes into one of those moments again.

Wasn't brody also monitoring?? Would he not know if it worked or not?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Good point.

Again, within the context of the show that means that either all four of them were grossly negligent or the pertinent information on the planet wasn't available to them. I could see one of them being negligent but all four at the same time, not likely. Since Rush is in control of the bridge, imo it is far more reasonable to conclude that Rush may have done something to hide it.

But why would he hide info on the planet? What would his reasoning be?

It is unreasonable to suggest that all four of them would have missed the critical information. Therefore, the penitent information must not have been present. I ask you why was the information not present? In the past they were able to evaluate the sensor information why not this time?

Ding.. Point blackhole.

So it's okay to accuse someone just because they're under influence?

legally if she is under the influence of somethig (drugs, coersion etc) she is not culpable. Ergo she is innocent.

Telford isn't dead yet. But I find this to be a common thread with those who seek to demonize him, against all logic. They want Telford to be dead, so they can hang something else on Rush's neck. Of course, the fact that Telford himself chose to stay behind, knowing the risk, apparently has no bearing. It's apparently all Rush's fault, and it's always Rush's fault, no matter what, eh?

Plus as i have mentioned elsewhere, YOUNG himself wanted Rush in the control room to do JUST WHAT HE DID, in de-dock the ships.

Again, where is your proof? Because what we have are people complaining of low supplies in Aftermath... and two episodes later, no one is complaining anymore. Also, three hours is plenty of time to head into a forest and pick a bunch of fruit and fill up barrels of water with plenty of people helping to do so.

Very true. We didn't see if they had others going to gather supplies, while the rest were dealing with the shuttle being down.