What is Rush up to?

[Blackhole]

Military commanders make decisions based on intelligence they have available to them. Rush came upon a vital piece of information that could have affected the mission and decided to not tell the commanding officer while there was still time to stop the mission. The argument that Rush isn't responsible because the sensor data was available to everyone is wrong because it's the scientists' job to analyze that data and report any meaningful conclusions up the chain of command which Rush decided not to do.

Rush/Franklin actually mentioned that a shuttle in perfect condition would have survived without any problems but it was because of all the damage that the shuttle might not make it. If Destiny's systems were not designed to compensate for possible damage to the shuttle (the Ancients would have been able to repair it with little effort) it might not have reported any risks to Volker/Park. Rush was able to put everything together and realize the damaged shuttle wouldn't survive and then decided not to tell Young.

I agree.

[tinerin]

... the innocent woman, regardless of what she's being accused of, is still under alien influence.

So it's okay to accuse someone just because they're under influence?

[Blackhole]

You do realize that you just quoted part of my post that taken out of context supports your point while completely ignoring the part where I prove Rush's guilt (at least under current US laws)? The whole point of my post is that scientists are supposed to work as a team for a reason! Rush is intentionally hiding information from the rest of the team while being solely responsible for the situation that they were in.

Here are the four levels of culpability for crimes in the US:
* A person causes a result purposely if the result is his/her goal in doing the action that causes it,
* A person causes a result knowingly if he/she knows that the result is virtually certain to occur from the action he/she undertakes,
* A person causes a result recklessly if he/she is aware of and disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk of the result occurring from the action, and
* A person causes a result negligently if there is a substantial and unjustifiable risk he/she is unaware of but should be aware of.

Depending on Rush's mental state, he would be somewhere between the 2nd and 4th levels. An exception to these rules is felony murder where if the prosecution proves beyond reasonable doubt that one commits a qualifying felony during which death results, one is held strictly liable for murder and the prosecution does not have to prove any of the normal culpability requirements for murder.

Excellent post. Thanks for the legal clarification.

[Kaiphantom]

You do realize that you just quoted part of my post that taken out of context supports your point while completely ignoring the part where I prove Rush's guilt (at least under current US laws)? The whole point of my post is that scientists are supposed to work as a team for a reason! Rush is intentionally hiding information from the rest of the team while being solely responsible for the situation that they were in.

HOW is he hiding it? Where is your evidence that he did? The seeder ships scan planets and send the data back. Destiny has scanners sufficient to analyze a planet. The shuttles have scanners sufficient to analyze a planet. That's three sources that would need to be manipulated in a very short time span, and we have no evidence of that.

As far as criminal negligence goes, you'd have a hard time proving it. Conditions aboard Destiny necessitate a great deal of risk, and it's impossible for anyone to guarantee 100% that everything will be okay. And you're missing the most important part in all four situations you listed: Rush didn't cause the shuttle to go to the planet. All four situations you listed would apply more to Young, then Rush.

Show me where Rush ordered the shuttle to go, and you'll have a point. Show me where Rush put a gun to Young's head. Show me where he intimidated the other scientists into not speaking up about the planet. Show me where he manipulated data.

Show me SOMETHING he did. Because all you have right now, is that he stopped the ship at the planet. That was his ONLY action. That was the only thing he caused. Those are your words, above. Rush caused the ship to stop. That was his only action.

If you reply to me, would you blame me for your reply because it was my fault for posting? Or would you say it was your choice to post?

As usual you ignore or are incapable of understanding my arguments.

Ad hominem doesn't help you. If your arguments are sound, you shouldn't have to resort to it.

Eli, Volker, Brody, and Park didn't report any dangers. Either they were all grossly negligent not to notice the planet had been blocked out and had severe atmospheric turbulence or the pertinent information for them to make these determinations was not present. It is unreasonable to suggest that all four of them would have missed the critical information. Therefore, the penitent information must not have been present. I ask you why was the information not present? In the past they were able to evaluate the sensor information why not this time?

As others have pointed out to you, the others were negligent. It really confuses me, because one one hand, people want to argue that only a team can make the call about the planet, and then turn around and somehow say it was all Rush's fault, while absolving anyone else of responsibility. That's highly illogical.

The decision to visit a planet is based on a proper risk assessment, i.e., how dangerous is the planet. Young would only have been negligent if a proper risk assessment not been made.

Wouldn't it be part of his job to ensure that a proper risk assessment had been made, prior to mission launch?

His advisers of which Rush is the main one did not alert him to any significant threats so he ordered the mission. He didn't know that Rush had lied about why the ship had stopped and that the planet had been locked out. It was Rush's false information that directly led to Young's bad call. I don't know if you are simply stubborn or really can't understand that the Earth sending people through the gate, or Ancients constructing the gate system or Adam and Eve have absolutely no logical connection or bearing on this situation.

Yep. Obviously, we can't blame people who had input into how things turned out, can we?

If Rush hadn't interceded then Destiny would have flown right by the planet and the disaster would have been averted. Again, I don't know if you are simply stubborn or really can't understand this point. Rush made a horrible call. The shuttle crashed and a man died. Obviously going there was a catastrophic mistake. The ship's AI and/or Rush's own sub-conscious mind (Gloria and Franklin's dialog) clearly and without a doubt confirm this fact and Rush's negligence. Suggesting their statements aren't reliable or valid is just plain head in the sand obstinate.

And if he had bypassed the planet, and people started getting weak or dying from starvation, you'd probably blame Rush for not stopping. Pretty much, damned if he does, damned if he doesn't, eh?

Young relied on Rush to provide truthful and accurate information. That didn't happen he lied. Any chain of command in the world would hold Rush responsible not Young.

As morbosfist and others have pointed out, the only lie Rush has told has concerned the bridge. But let me get this straight: Do you hold the other scientists in any sort of blame for failing to notice the data concerning the planet? Or do you absolve them because you feel they were somehow too stupid to interpret the data?

What does your dubious trial experience have to do with anything? Both tinerin and I "really have no idea why you keep bringing up the term entrapment because that has absolutely nothing to do with this situation".

I understand you wanting to shy away from this point. But I was just stating my qualifications and knowledge from where I base my decision. I notice you have not backed up your assertions of law with any qualifications, so we are left to assume it is just your opinion, and not based upon any strong legal foundation. It might be wise, then, for you to abandon this point. Legally, Rush is clear of blame. However, you can still argue on moral or ethical grounds, and you'd have an argument.

Just a suggestion.

I disagree. Whether they are manifestations of the ship's AI and/or Rush's mind they both hold Rush fully responsible for two deaths and the loss of the shuttle. Why would the “Gloria and Franklin” characters be present if not to demonstrate Rush’s clear guilt? Do you really expect anyone to believe that later episodes will suggest that both the ship and his own conscience were judging poor Rush unfairly? Your assertion is dramatically outlandish. At this point we can more than certainly take their comments at face value.

Telford isn't dead yet. But I find this to be a common thread with those who seek to demonize him, against all logic. They want Telford to be dead, so they can hang something else on Rush's neck. Of course, the fact that Telford himself chose to stay behind, knowing the risk, apparently has no bearing. It's apparently all Rush's fault, and it's always Rush's fault, no matter what, eh? I've watched many shows where someone holds that viewpoint. No matter what person A does, person B will always blame them for something. Somehow, it's always supposed to be their fault.

That kind of thinking isn't conducive to logical thought.

Rush lied to Young and all the crew and told them Chloe was responsible for all of his bridge actions.

The relevant transcript excerpt follows:

BRIDGE. Gloria is standing behind Nick as he sits in the command chair.

GLORIA: Do you really think she can help you?

RUSH: I do, yes. If she values her freedom, she'll play along without telling anyone. I need it to be this way - for now, anyway.

GLORIA: But can you trust her?

(Nick has no answer for her.)

In their quarters, Matt is fast asleep. Chloe lies beside him, her eyes fixed and locked as she gazes sightlessly upwards.

Look, no one is saying your interpretation is invalid, so you don't need to get defensive nor quote sections. We understand that this is your interpretation of events, but it isn't the only one. Until we have more facts on the situation, it might be wise to refrain from insisting this is how it is.

One man has died, another abandoned, their only shuttle lost and an innocent woman falsely accused. This is proof Rush's actions have been for the greater good how?

Oh dear lord, "falsely accused"? How exactly has Chloe been falsely accused? But to answer your question: Riley died and the shuttle lost so that the greater majority could live. One man has been abandoned, so that the greater majority wouldn't be stranded. Anytime the greater majority benefits from an action, then that action has served the greater good. FYI, there's an episode titled that coming up, and if you don't mind spoilers, you might wanna check out what it entails. It implies certain things about Rush, the mission, and everyone else.

As I have said Ad nauseam, Eli, Volker, Brody, and Park all didn't report any planetary dangers. The only way that could happen with all four of them at the same time is if the pertinent information wasn't available for them to see. And if the pertinent information wasn’t available for them to see how could they be blamed for Young’s decision?

If it wasn't, you'd be right. But you have no evidence. In the absence of said evidence, you are merely making a wild theory with no basis. Everyone else here already knows that Seeder ships scan planets and send the data back. They know that Destiny has sufficient scanners to analyze planets in system. And even the shuttles have sufficient scanners to analyze a planet. You really expect us to believe that Rush somehow manipulated all three? Or that NONE out of all those registered anything about the planet? Do you realize what kind of leap of faith you're asking people to make?

One last thing, since it was in your reply to morbosfist:

No food was likely obtained. There wasn't sufficient time to forage.

Again, where is your proof? Because what we have are people complaining of low supplies in Aftermath... and two episodes later, no one is complaining anymore. Also, three hours is plenty of time to head into a forest and pick a bunch of fruit and fill up barrels of water with plenty of people helping to do so.

[tinerin]

HOW is he hiding it? Where is your evidence that he did? The seeder ships scan planets and send the data back. Destiny has scanners sufficient to analyze a planet. The shuttles have scanners sufficient to analyze a planet.

You are confusing raw data with analysis of that data. No he didn't hide the raw data but he did hide his expert analysis that showed a significant risk to the shuttle and its crew.

As far as criminal negligence goes, you'd have a hard time proving it. Conditions aboard Destiny necessitate a great deal of risk, and it's impossible for anyone to guarantee 100% that everything will be okay. And you're missing the most important part in all four situations you listed: Rush didn't cause the shuttle to go to the planet. All four situations you listed would apply more to Young, then Rush.

Yes there is a great deal of risk but proper risk analysis requires the commanders to have access to all of the information that has been collected. If the lead scientist intentionally withholds information from the commander that he knows has a very high chance of negatively affecting the mission than he is at fault for that mission's failure. Had he given the information to Young and Young decided to continue, than Young would have been at fault.

Show me where he manipulated data.

Show me SOMETHING he did. Because all you have right now, is that he stopped the ship at the planet. That was his ONLY action.

No his action was making the decision to not notify the commanding officer that he came to the conclusion that the planet's atmosphere posed a very significant risk to the damaged shuttle. His job is to analyze raw data and report his conclusions based on that data to his commander. Choosing not to report that information to Young is his action that makes him at fault for the loss of the shuttle and the death of Riley.

As others have pointed out to you, the others were negligent. It really confuses me, because one one hand, people want to argue that only a team can make the call about the planet, and then turn around and somehow say it was all Rush's fault, while absolving anyone else of responsibility. That's highly illogical.

Rush is at fault for intentionally withholding information from the rest of the team. Everyone else is working together sharing their findings which is the whole point of teamwork.

Wouldn't it be part of his job to ensure that a proper risk assessment had been made, prior to mission launch?

Risk assessment does not stop when a mission launches. Rush came across vital information prior to the shuttle reaching the planet and did not report it to Young. Hell, as a very extreme fictional example of this in a tv show I watched, a CIA team discovered that a mission to attack a high valued target was compromised after the special ops team had gone radio silent so they're method of notifying the team to call off the mission was to crash a Predator drone into a building. In this case, had Rush notified Young of the new analysis and Young decided to call off the mission, all he would have had to do is radio the shuttle.


Also, you guys are making the assumption that Volker would have had access to all of the data that Rush had access to which is not necessarily the case. For example, there are three separate networks used by the US intelligence agencies: NIPR which handles unclassified data, SIPR which handles data up to SECRET, and JWICS which handles data up to TS/SCI. While it stands to reason that the Volker's console would have had access to all the raw sensor data, it's possible that the console in the bridge would have had access to more sophisticated software to analyze the raw data and come up with more meaningful conclusions that were beyond Volker and Park's combined capabilities.

Just to be clear about my point, Rush's ACTION was his decision to not notify Young/Volker/Park about his analysis of the sensor data that showed a significant risk to the shuttle. Under the circumstances, this ACTION would be legally considered to be a crime. A death occured as a result of the commission of this crime. Under US laws, this fits the definition of felony murder (or involuntary homicide due to his mental state). Whether or not this death would have occured had Rush notified the crew is irrelevant to the laws that I am stating.

[morbosfist]

So it's okay to accuse someone just because they're under influence?

No, my point is that Blackhole is making out as much more black and white than it is.

It is not Young's job to personally evaluate the sensors. He relies on the scientists. How could Eli, Volker, Brody, and Park missed the sensor data? I didn't say Rush did lock out the sensor data, I said he may have. I put it forth as a possible explanation for why all four of them didn't report anything.

Ergo, you're demonizing him. You take a leap to paint Rush as evil or vindictive here, and there is no other interpretation of him locking out sensor data.

As I already have explained in great detail the shuttle crew didn't have anytime to forage. They had less than six hours to tend to a dying man and uncover a vertically buried gate. When would they have had time to forage in a forest?

The three hours when Destiny was stopped.

He didn't tell Young that the gate had been blocked by the ship. He also didn't contact Young when he found out about the turbulence. The prudent action would have been to tell the shuttle to assume orbit until the atmospheric danger could be more carefully evaluated. Instead Rush made a snap decision and the shuttle crashed.

He very clearly tells Young that the gate was blocked. The only thing he didn't tell Young was why the ship stopped.

The shuttle crew was informed of the turbulence. You think the decision would have changed if Young knew? I think not.

No food was likely obtained. There wasn't sufficient time to forage.

Then they'd be starving now, yet clearly aren't. Ergo, they found food.

Chloe has been affected by aliens but it is unclear what that influence was and if it posed a threat. So far she hadn't done anything threatening and imo didn't deserve to be locked up.

The aliens who infected her have shot at the ship in every appearance. How is that not a threat?

[Blackhole]

No, my point is that Blackhole is making out as much more black and white than it is.

Ergo, you're demonizing him. You take a leap to paint Rush as evil or vindictive here, and there is no other interpretation of him locking out sensor data.

Given everything Rush has done I don't think I have demonized him at all.

The three hours when Destiny was stopped.

The shuttle had less than six hours on the planet to recover from the crash, tend to a dieing man and uncover a vertically buried gate.

He very clearly tells Young that the gate was blocked. The only thing he didn't tell Young was why the ship stopped.

He told Young the gate was not functioning not that the planet had been locked out by the ship. If he had Young and staff would have been for more careful sending a mission there.

The shuttle crew was informed of the turbulence. You think the decision would have changed if Young knew? I think not.

Shortly before it happened. And yes I think Young would have been far more careful and aborted the mission.

Then they'd be starving now, yet clearly aren't. Ergo, they found food.

You don't know that.

The aliens who infected her have shot at the ship in every appearance. How is that not a threat?

The aliens themselves may be a threat but what is happening to Chloe isn't known yet. As far as we know it may be an unintended side effect of their investigations and pose no danger. I think she should be accompanied but not confined.

[Kaiphantom]

You are confusing raw data with analysis of that data. No he didn't hide the raw data but he did hide his expert analysis that showed a significant risk to the shuttle and its crew.

Just like Volker did. Gotcha.

Yes there is a great deal of risk but proper risk analysis requires the commanders to have access to all of the information that has been collected. If the lead scientist intentionally withholds information from the commander that he knows has a very high chance of negatively affecting the mission than he is at fault for that mission's failure. Had he given the information to Young and Young decided to continue, than Young would have been at fault.

Ah, I see. So yeah, I guess Volker really is at fault, considering he didn't give Young the information, and it led to the failure. Thanks for clearing that up!

No his action was making the decision to not notify the commanding officer that he came to the conclusion that the planet's atmosphere posed a very significant risk to the damaged shuttle. His job is to analyze raw data and report his conclusions based on that data to his commander. Choosing not to report that information to Young is his action that makes him at fault for the loss of the shuttle and the death of Riley.

As a lawyer would say if you were on the stand: "Yes or no. Did Rush order the shuttle mission?"

Rush is at fault for intentionally withholding information from the rest of the team. Everyone else is working together sharing their findings which is the whole point of teamwork.

Yep. Great teamwork there. They completely missed data from three separate locations, and also failed to analyze it properly! I guess Rush is the only qualified person on the ship, eh?

Risk assessment does not stop when a mission launches. Rush came across vital information prior to the shuttle reaching the planet and did not report it to Young. Hell, as a very extreme fictional example of this in a tv show I watched, a CIA team discovered that a mission to attack a high valued target was compromised after the special ops team had gone radio silent so they're method of notifying the team to call off the mission was to crash a Predator drone into a building. In this case, had Rush notified Young of the new analysis and Young decided to call off the mission, all he would have had to do is radio the shuttle.

Oh. Well, if you saw it on TV, it must be true. I mean, I watch CSI all the time, and everytime they go "ENHANCE!" I get goosebumps. They're good! And thus, my watching of a TV show completely makes me an expert in matters related to this science fiction show. Gotcha!

Also, you guys are making the assumption that Volker would have had access to all of the data that Rush had access to which is not necessarily the case. For example, there are three separate networks used by the US intelligence agencies: NIPR which handles unclassified data, SIPR which handles data up to SECRET, and JWICS which handles data up to TS/SCI. While it stands to reason that the Volker's console would have had access to all the raw sensor data, it's possible that the console in the bridge would have had access to more sophisticated software to analyze the raw data and come up with more meaningful conclusions that were beyond Volker and Park's combined capabilities.

Where is your evidence? It contradicts current findings, so you'll have to provide evidence. That's the way it works in science. When we have a baseline, if someone chooses to contradict the norm, they must provide sufficient evidence for doing so. Not merely unsubstantiated theory.

[tinerin]

Just like Volker did. Gotcha.

Ah, I see. So yeah, I guess Volker really is at fault, considering he didn't give Young the information, and it led to the failure. Thanks for clearing that up!

WRONG. Volker was cooperating with the rest of the team. Rush was not. Unless you have evidence to the contrary. Yeah, the episode did not show Volker giving information to Young but it didn't show him withholding information either. Whereas it did show Rush withholding information

As a lawyer would say if you were on the stand: "Yes or no. Did Rush order the shuttle mission?"

Did you even bother to read the laws I stated? I am not accusing Rush of committing first, second or even third degree murder. Read the laws and then get back to me because like I said, based on the laws I am using, whether or not the death would have occured had Rush provided Young with the information is irrelevant to whether or not Rush is guilty under those laws under these circumstances.

Yep. Great teamwork there. They completely missed data from three separate locations, and also failed to analyze it properly! I guess Rush is the only qualified person on the ship, eh?

Read my entire post because you're assumption that everyone had access to all the same data Rush did is wrong based on the way that the US government handles classified data. Also, the crews qualifications are irrelevant. Rush came to his own conclusion and refused to tell anyone. As for the rest of the crew not being able to bounce ideas off Rush, who's fault is that? The crew spends hours trying to get in contact without Rush and he doesn't bother responding even though he knows they're trying to contact him.

Oh. Well, if you saw it on TV, it must be true. I mean, I watch CSI all the time, and everytime they go "ENHANCE!" I get goosebumps. They're good! And thus, my watching of a TV show completely makes me an expert in matters related to this science fiction show. Gotcha!

Uhmm...this sort of decisions happens in the military and in the intelligence community all the time in real life (like I said this was an extreme fictional example). You just don't won't find anyone talking about it on Gateworld because that information would be classified and revealing that information is a violation of federal law. Actually, now that I think about it, go check out WikiLeaks and I'm sure you could find some classified examples of this happening in actual, recent US military operations. Hell, it even happens in local law enforcement. If a SWAT team is about to enter a fugitive's apartment and a cop waiting outside sees the fugitive walk into the building you think he's not going to warn his buddies about the potential danger and do you think they're not going to reassess the situation based on that new information?

Where is your evidence? It contradicts current findings, so you'll have to provide evidence. That's the way it works in science. When we have a baseline, if someone chooses to contradict the norm, they must provide sufficient evidence for doing so. Not merely unsubstantiated theory.

What current findings? Considering that Rush is the only one who even has access to the bridge how could you possibly know whether or not all data accessible from the bridge is accessible from Volker's console? My evidence is that that is how the US government handles data and we even know from Atlantis that the Ancients do have methods of compartmentalizing data. You are the one making an "unsubstantiated theory". In fact, it is a common theory on this site that Rush's hallucinations are manifestations from the ship. Considering that noone else is seeing them and that Rush is only seeing them while on the bridge that is actually evidence that supports my theory. Where's the evidence that supports yours?

[morbosfist]

Given everything Rush has done I don't think I have demonized him at all.

Yet you're acting like he must have hidden the clearly important data from everyone else, i.e. demonizing.

The shuttle had less than six hours on the planet to recover from the crash, tend to a dieing man and uncover a vertically buried gate.

Then another three hours when the ship stopped again to pick them up, by which time they were done.

He told Young the gate was not functioning not that the planet had been locked out by the ship. If he had Young and staff would have been for more careful sending a mission there.

It wouldn't have made a difference. They needed food, and Young would have authorized a mission, locked-out planet or not.

Shortly before it happened. And yes I think Young would have been far more careful and aborted the mission.

Or he'd have ok'd it, based on Rush's own belief that the shuttle could survive the turbulence, which it did, even if it dropped out of the sky minutes later.

You don't know that.

I do know they aren't starving, because no mention is made of it and it was an issue then.

The aliens themselves may be a threat but what is happening to Chloe isn't known yet. As far as we know it may be an unintended side effect of their investigations and pose no danger. I think she should be accompanied but not confined.

If she was infected by them, it must be treated as a threat. These aliens want Destiny, and Chloe's infection should, first and foremost, be treated as something that will contribute to that goal.

[Kaiphantom]

WRONG. Volker was cooperating with the rest of the team. Rush was not. Unless you have evidence to the contrary. Yeah, the episode did not show Volker giving information to Young but it didn't show him withholding information either. Whereas it did show Rush withholding information

What information did he withhold?

Did you even bother to read the laws I stated? I am not accusing Rush of committing first, second or even third degree murder. Read the laws and then get back to me because like I said, based on the laws I am using, whether or not the death would have occured had Rush provided Young with the information is irrelevant to whether or not Rush is guilty under those laws under these circumstances.

Answer the question: "Yes or no. Did Rush order the shuttle mission?" It's a simple question.

Read my entire post because you're assumption that everyone had access to all the same data Rush did is wrong based on the way that the US government handles classified data. Also, the crews qualifications are irrelevant. Rush came to his own conclusion and refused to tell anyone. As for the rest of the crew not being able to bounce ideas off Rush, who's fault is that? The crew spends hours trying to get in contact without Rush and he doesn't bother responding even though he knows they're trying to contact him.

The way the US government handles information is irrelevant. They are on Destiny, and they don't have a CIA or FBI on Destiny. Based on several previous episodes, everyone has access to the same information on planets (as long as you can read ancient and work the controls). That is a fact.

Uhmm...this sort of decisions happens in the military and in the intelligence community all the time in real life (like I said this was an extreme fictional example). You just don't won't find anyone talking about it on Gateworld because that information would be classified and revealing that information is a violation of federal law. Actually, now that I think about it, go check out WikiLeaks and I'm sure you could find some classified examples of this happening in actual, recent US military operations. Hell, it even happens in local law enforcement. If a SWAT team is about to enter a fugitive's apartment and a cop waiting outside sees the fugitive walk into the building you think he's not going to warn his buddies about the potential danger and do you think they're not going to reassess the situation based on that new information?

Yeah, so shame on Eli, Park, Brody and Volker for not telling Young. I mean, what were they thinking?

What current findings? Considering that Rush is the only one who even has access to the bridge how could you possibly know whether or not all data accessible from the bridge is accessible from Volker's console? My evidence is that that is how the US government handles data and we even know from Atlantis that the Ancients do have methods of compartmentalizing data. You are the one making an "unsubstantiated theory". In fact, it is a common theory on this site that Rush's hallucinations are manifestations from the ship. Considering that noone else is seeing them and that Rush is only seeing them while on the bridge that is actually evidence that supports my theory. Where's the evidence that supports yours?

In Darkness/Light, we are shown that the shuttle can sufficiently analyze planets (as long as the star isn't in the way).
In Life, we are shown that the seeder ships sends a LOT of information on planets back to Destiny to help plot the course. The information is detailed enough to showcase mineral composition, among other things.
In Faith, we are shown that the ship's scanners, accessed from the core room, can sufficiently analyze a planet in system (Volker had quite a detailed analysis of the sun). Also, Incursion shows them analyzing a binary pulsar from the core room.

That's the evidence. Do I need to quote you specific sections? If you have a new theory, you have to account for all three of these possibilities, and you haven't yet done so. If you feel up to doing so, we'd all love to hear it, however.

[Gollumpus]

Then they'd be starving now, yet clearly aren't. Ergo, they found food.

No evidence of food acquisition was seen. Not saying it wasn't found, just saying we did not see anything to suggest that they did.

C'mon, EVERYBODY knows that Riley had a huge appetite. His overactive metabolism required he eat as much as 10 people in order to remain alive. If they lost Riley, they suddenly gained enough rations to feed additional people. This allowed Young to keep the LA people he wanted and still have a surplus at the end of the day.

Way to go, Rush.

regards,
G.

[tinerin]

What information did he withhold?

His analysis that the planet's atmosphere posed a significant risk to the safety of the shuttle due to the damage that the shuttle has accumulated over time. Keep in mind that this is HIS personal analysis of the situation. If Volker had come to a different conclusion it still wouldn't have made a difference; it was still his job to report that information to Young.

Answer the question: "Yes or no. Did Rush order the shuttle mission?" It's a simple question.

No. But like I said, that information is irrelevant to the crimes I am charging him of so bringing it up is pointless.

The way the US government handles information is irrelevant. They are on Destiny, and they don't have a CIA or FBI on Destiny. Based on several previous episodes, everyone has access to the same information on planets (as long as you can read ancient and work the controls). That is a fact.

Uhmm...all we know is that they have access to the raw sensor data which is not what I am disputing. It's possible that the bridge has access to special systems to analyze this data. Specialized consoles for handling very specific data in very specific ways exist on Atlantis so why not Destiny? If Rush's hallucinations are manifestations of the ship then that proves my point.

Yeah, so shame on Eli, Park, Brody and Volker for not telling Young. I mean, what were they thinking?

Uhmm...what did they not tell Young? Nowhere in the episode did it suggest that they came across information that showed the shuttle was in danger. Anyways, like I said, it was Rush's duty to report his PERSONAL findings to Young regardless of whether or not it contradicted with information provided by any other member of the crew. If you are working on a team of scientists who come to the conclusion that a new product is safe but you come to the conclusion that it isn't are you just going to keep your mouth shut or report it to your boss?

In Darkness/Light, we are shown that the shuttle can sufficiently analyze planets (as long as the star isn't in the way).
In Life, we are shown that the seeder ships sends a LOT of information on planets back to Destiny to help plot the course. The information is detailed enough to showcase mineral composition, among other things.
In Faith, we are shown that the ship's scanners, accessed from the core room, can sufficiently analyze a planet in system (Volker had quite a detailed analysis of the sun). Also, Incursion shows them analyzing a binary pulsar from the core room.

And the point from this quoted section is that it is ALOT of information. Far more than a single person can fully analyze in a short amount of time. Rush came across something in his analysis of the information and decided not to tell Young. Keep in mind that Rush's own hallucinations state that the planet's atmosphere would have posed no risk for a shuttle in perfect condition. Rush is the only person on the ship who has real knowledge of Ancient technology (or at least that's how he perceives himself) so therefore, no other scientists would have been able to see the threat without Rush's help, which is impossible if he's hiding from them. Show me evidence that Volker's console would have been able to simulate the shuttle's entry into the planet's atmosphere based on the shuttle's specifications and factoring in the damage that the shuttle has sustained (which is something Rush was able to do either manually or with the assistance of the bridge).


You keep pointing blame to other scientists on the ship but after the whole attempted mutiny incident, show me evidence of any other scientists withholding information from Young that they know could have a direct impact on the safety of the crew. I can't think of any whereas this is occuring in every episode since Rush discovered the bridge and has also happened in season 1.

I really don't know why you have a hard time understanding the legal concepts I'm trying to explain so I'll try it one more time from the start. Rush is a civilian working for the US military. Refusing to forward mission-critical information up the chain of command (in this case, Young) is a crime (this is not something you can argue). Legally, if a death results during the commission of a crime, it is felony murder or involuntary manslaughter (depending on the person's state of mind at the time); again this is not something you can argue as I posted the legal definitions of these crimes in my previous posts. Rush committed a crime that resulted in Riley's death, therefore Rush is guilty. Whether or not the death would have occured had Rush given Young the information is irrelevant under the law. Yes, Young is the one who gave the order but that is his job which he did; Rush's job was to provide information to Young that could affect a mission which he refused to do.

I think the issue you are having with understanding this situation is the fact that Rush works for the military, which requires him to follow an additional set of laws which normal civilians are not required to follow. Assuming you are not what is called a mandated reporter, if you are driving by your local Bank of America and see guys in ski masks carrying assault rifles enter the bank you are not legally required to report that to the police and you are not responsible for any deaths that may occur during the robbery (obviously, lying to the police if they decide to question you is a felony though). This is not the case for DoD civilian employees. For example, if I were a civilian working on a military base and saw a suspicious person hop the fence with a backpack and didn't report it to the base security, I would be liable for any damages that may result from my silence. Or a more work appropriate example, if I were a satellite imagery analyst and looking at infrared satellite imagery of what a special ops team thinks is an abandoned building that they can set up shop in and see that the building is full of peope but decide not to report it, and it turns out the guys in the building were heavily armed and prepared and killed the special ops team, I would be liable for their deaths.

[Kaiphantom]

His analysis that the planet's atmosphere posed a significant risk to the safety of the shuttle due to the damage that the shuttle has accumulated over time. Keep in mind that this is HIS personal analysis of the situation. If Volker had come to a different conclusion it still wouldn't have made a difference; it was still his job to report that information to Young.

Because he honestly felt it was safe. But it's good to see that you blame Eli, Park, Brody, and Volker as well, for withholding their analysis of the planet.

No. But like I said, that information is irrelevant to the crimes I am charging him of so bringing it up is pointless.

So, it was Young's decision that led to the shuttle to the shuttle being launched? It was solely his choice to send the shuttle or not?

Uhmm...all we know is that they have access to the raw sensor data which is not what I am disputing. It's possible that the bridge has access to special systems to analyze this data. Specialized consoles for handling very specific data in very specific ways exist on Atlantis so why not Destiny? If Rush's hallucinations are manifestations of the ship then that proves my point.

Why not destiny? Because we've deliberately been shown that isn't the case. In fact, time and time again it has been pointed out that Destiny isn't Atlantis. And we've been shown many times that the consoles in the core room had access pretty much everything. The only problem has been finding the necessary data (such as where the engine data is, etc.). Once they know where to find it (I liken it to where in the menu/folder system it is), they can go back there. They already know about the database and the scanners, so that information would be easily pulled up again.

Uhmm...what did they not tell Young? Nowhere in the episode did it suggest that they came across information that showed the shuttle was in danger. Anyways, like I said, it was Rush's duty to report his PERSONAL findings to Young regardless of whether or not it contradicted with information provided by any other member of the crew. If you are working on a team of scientists who come to the conclusion that a new product is safe but you come to the conclusion that it isn't are you just going to keep your mouth shut or report it to your boss?

The one kink in that is that Rush felt the risk was minimal. There is always risk. If you tell someone it's safe to step outside, and they do so and are immediately hit by a falling meteor, are you to blame? And keep in mind, there is considerable risk even for hardened SG teams going through the gate normally. There is always an assumption that once you step through, you may not be coming back. When that actually happens, you can't simply blame someone, because you knew in advance it was possible. That's why I ultimately don't blame Young, or anyone else. Bad **** happens. Whinging about it and looking for someone to blame is counter-productive.

And the point from this quoted section is that it is ALOT of information. Far more than a single person can fully analyze in a short amount of time.

Um, remember Faith?

RUSH: I've been over the database a dozen times. No evidence of any glitch or anomaly.

WALLACE: Yeah, I couldn't find anything either. It's like this star just appeared out of nowhere.

(Dale Volker has joined them and is looking at his own console.)

VOLKER: Well, vigorous surface activity, strong stellar winds, bipolar outflow. It's brand new, all right. It's straight out of T Tauri phase.

WALLACE: Which would still make it, like, what, a hundred million years old?

VOLKER: Two hundred million.

WALLACE: And how far ahead of us are those Gate-seeding ships?

RUSH: It doesn't make any sense. The ships would have noticed it.

WALLACE: And dropped a shiny new Stargate on the planet.

VOLKER: That's the weird thing about this. I mean, if this star really is this young, then that planet should still be a ball of molten rock.

Volker doesn't seem to have much trouble analyzing data in his area of expertise (which happen to include stars and planets).

[quote]Rush came across something in his analysis of the information and decided not to tell Young. Keep in mind that Rush's own hallucinations state that the planet's atmosphere would have posed no risk for a shuttle in perfect condition. Rush is the only person on the ship who has real knowledge of Ancient technology (or at least that's how he perceives himself) so therefore, no other scientists would have been able to see the threat without Rush's help, which is impossible if he's hiding from them. Show me evidence that Volker's console would have been able to simulate the shuttle's entry into the planet's atmosphere based on the shuttle's specifications and factoring in the damage that the shuttle has sustained (which is something Rush was able to do either manually or with the assistance of the bridge).

First off, we haven't been shown whether they are hallucinations or not (and since they only appear on the bridge, evidence would suggest they aren't). And second of all, you're another person who seems to imply that Rush is supposed to be all-knowing, and that everyone else is an idiot. That's why you can blame him and not anyone else. I suppose, if you really hold that view, your explanations make sense.

You keep pointing blame to other scientists on the ship but after the whole attempted mutiny incident, show me evidence of any other scientists withholding information from Young that they know could have a direct impact on the safety of the crew. I can't think of any whereas this is occuring in every episode since Rush discovered the bridge and has also happened in season 1.

Heh, cute. "Before the whole attempted mutiny incident." Thus showcasing times when the other scientists were doing exactly that. But I'll spare you, because this really isn't the point. A number of us believe it's a big plot hole, and that based on past evidence, the others should have been able to tell what the planetary conditions were like. So the only explanations left, is that Rush is right and they really are idiots. Which then lends strength to his argument about keeping the bridge secret, because no one else is qualified. Since you seem to be suggesting that Rush, being the smartest, is the only one to blame because of his knowledge, then it stands to reason that the other side of coin fits as well: you'd have to agree that he's right in keeping the bridge secret because he's the only one who could understand it.

[Blackhole]

Ad hominem doesn't help you. If your arguments are sound, you shouldn't have to resort to it.

You consistently don't respond to arguments that you can't counter. I can only assume that you are ignoring them or are unable to understand.

As others have pointed out to you, the others were negligent. It really confuses me, because one one hand, people want to argue that only a team can make the call about the planet, and then turn around and somehow say it was all Rush's fault, while absolving anyone else of responsibility. That's highly illogical.

Wouldn't it be part of his job to ensure that a proper risk assessment had been made, prior to mission launch?

Yep. Obviously, we can't blame people who had input into how things turned out, can we?

As I have repeatedly pointed out. Eli, Volker, Brody, and Park didn't report any dangers. Either they were all grossly negligent all at the same time not to notice the planet had been locked out and had severe atmospheric turbulence or the pertinent information for them to make these determinations was not present. Imo it is unreasonable to suggest that all four of them would have missed the critical information all at the same time. Therefore, the pertinent information must not have been present.

Again for them to be negligent they would all have had to miss the information all at the same time. Considering this hasn't happened in the past before why would it happen now?

Is this what you are suggesting?

And if he had bypassed the planet, and people started getting weak or dying from starvation, you'd probably blame Rush for not stopping. Pretty much, damned if he does, damned if he doesn't, eh?

As I have already posted it is very unlikely any significant food or water was obtained on their visit for the reasons I have already indicated. Not enough time to forage and very limited food availability in a forest.

Since there was no mention of anyone starving in the last episode your assertion of the severity of their supplies in unfounded.

As morbosfist and others have pointed out, the only lie Rush has told has concerned the bridge. But let me get this straight: Do you hold the other scientists in any sort of blame for failing to notice the data concerning the planet? Or do you absolve them because you feel they were somehow too stupid to interpret the data?

No that isn't the only lie. He lied about having the command code, why Destiny stopped, the fact that the planet had been locked out by the ship. He didn't tell Young about the atmospheric danger and the fact that the million year old shuttle would likely not survive it. He also falsely accused Chloe of being responsible for the Command changes he was secretly performing to cover his ass and maintain his deception.

For a first I would like to see you actually address the point I made above concerning the likelihood that Eli, Volker, Brody and Park actually missed crucial data on the planet.

I understand you wanting to shy away from this point. But I was just stating my qualifications and knowledge from where I base my decision. I notice you have not backed up your assertions of law with any qualifications, so we are left to assume it is just your opinion, and not based upon any strong legal foundation. It might be wise, then, for you to abandon this point. Legally, Rush is clear of blame. However, you can still argue on moral or ethical grounds, and you'd have an argument.

Just a suggestion.

Again, as a first I would like you to address the point I am making below. How does your dubious trial experience with entrapment have absolutely anything to do with Young's situation?

Entrapment means to “lure into performing a previously or otherwise uncontemplated illegal act”. How does entrapment in any possible fashion apply when Rush chose to withhold crucial information from Young? How does it reduce or prevent any legal culpability on Rush's part?

Please explain I am at a loss to understand?

Telford isn't dead yet. But I find this to be a common thread with those who seek to demonize him, against all logic. They want Telford to be dead, so they can hang something else on Rush's neck. Of course, the fact that Telford himself chose to stay behind, knowing the risk, apparently has no bearing. It's apparently all Rush's fault, and it's always Rush's fault, no matter what, eh? I've watched many shows where someone holds that viewpoint. No matter what person A does, person B will always blame them for something. Somehow, it's always supposed to be their fault.

That kind of thinking isn't conducive to logical thought.

We don't know what has happened to Telford yet. If Young had known that Destiny was under their control it is very likely that something could have been done to rescue him. Destiny didn't have to go into FTL. There would have been time to mount a rescue.

Look, no one is saying your interpretation is invalid, so you don't need to get defensive nor quote sections. We understand that this is your interpretation of events, but it isn't the only one. Until we have more facts on the situation, it might be wise to refrain from insisting this is how it is.

Oh dear lord, "falsely accused"? How exactly has Chloe been falsely accused?

Rush told Young that Chloe was responsible for the strange behaviors in Destiny that he was actually responsible for. That is about as clear a false accusation as is possible.

But to answer your question: Riley died and the shuttle lost so that the greater majority could live. One man has been abandoned, so that the greater majority wouldn't be stranded. Anytime the greater majority benefits from an action, then that action has served the greater good. FYI, there's an episode titled that coming up, and if you don't mind spoilers, you might wanna check out what it entails. It implies certain things about Rush, the mission, and everyone else.

Your argument is ridiculous. Rush made a catastrophic mistake that cost them the shuttle and Riley's life. If Rush hadn't made the mistake circumstances would be far better on Destiny and Telford would likely also have survived.

If it wasn't, you'd be right. But you have no evidence. In the absence of said evidence, you are merely making a wild theory with no basis. Everyone else here already knows that Seeder ships scan planets and send the data back. They know that Destiny has sufficient scanners to analyze planets in system. And even the shuttles have sufficient scanners to analyze a planet. You really expect us to believe that Rush somehow manipulated all three? Or that NONE out of all those registered anything about the planet? Do you realize what kind of leap of faith you're asking people to make?

So you are suggesting that all four all at the same time overlooked the sensor data on the planet?

One last thing, since it was in your reply to morbosfist:

Again, where is your proof? Because what we have are people complaining of low supplies in Aftermath... and two episodes later, no one is complaining anymore. Also, three hours is plenty of time to head into a forest and pick a bunch of fruit and fill up barrels of water with plenty of people helping to do so.

The fact that nothing concerning supplies was mentioned could just as easily mean that their supply situation wasn't nearly as desperate as you are trying to make it out as. I have spend extensive time hiking in the forest and I can say with absolute certainty that three hours is no where near enough time to successfully forage, especially if you have to carry it out on foot. Water weighs over 8 pounds per gallon, how much do you think a few people can carry?