'Cloverdale' (205) General Discussion

[Blackhole]

There is no argument here. None of us knows what Chloe has exactly. The only argument being made is that, if it is genetic (and there is a very good chance of that), then it's in her genes. If it's in her genes, then it's encoded into every part of her, which means it is transferable via any bodily fluid.

Yeah, but what we're dealing with here is Chloe infecting Scott. Scott is neither a woman, nor homosexual.

You really need to read what I post.

The cause of Chloe's changes is highly likely to be genetic, and she's been giving him her DNA for a fairly long time now.

Yes, but we're discussing Chloe infecting Scott, who is neither a woman nor homosexual. So what you said has no bearing on the discussion.

We're not talking about HIV, though. That's a virus. What's happening to Chloe is genetic. There is a clear difference between the two, so you can't reference things in response to HIV. Vaginal secretions hold Chloe's DNA.

Please try to keep things relevant to what we're discussing, thanks.

What you don't seem to understand is genetic material won't by itself transmute anyone. You need a virus or nanobytes to do so. They rewrite the hosts DNA and transmutes their cells. For Scott to be at risk a virus or nanobytes have to have been transferred to him. Receiving altered DNA by itself wouldn’t be harmful.

It should be stressed that Chloe IS doing something; we just don't know what. It may be course changes, or it may be just learning. Remember, Rush doesn't completely understand how to control the clock; Chloe could easily be uploading a program that takes effect when Rush drops the ship out of FTL. What Rush sees as "Hmm, that didn't quite go as I expected" could really be something by Chloe interfering.

Chloe is having blackouts and so far has been caught doing meaningless activities and wondering around aimlessly. They caught her twiddling her hands at a closed case. We don't know whether her activities have a purpose or not. So far, I don't think she is behaving like someone who is controlled. Why would she now have extensive mathematical knowledge or language skills? What is to be gained by giving her enhanced immune protection and recovery ability. If the aliens wanted to use her as a spy why bother with these enhancements? How would they further her spying ability?

I tend to think what is happening is an unintended side effect of the alien's experimentation. I am not suggesting she be ignored but I don't think it necessary to lock her up. Rush made a good point when he suggested they monitor her and see what happens.

If you remember after the aliens captured her they were trying to board Destiny. The only reason Chloe and Rush escaped is because Young interceded via the stones and freed Rush. It seems to me the aliens had no intention of returning her and her escape and return was a very fortunate happenstance for both of them. If this was the case why bother transforming her? Also, they had Rush much longer than Chloe why didn't they alter him?

[ArchaeoNerd]

NEWSFLASH:
From now on, every time a poster manages to make a comparison of an SGU episode to something OTHER THAN SG1 or SGA, I will green you, whether I like the comparison or not, agree or not. Green I say!

OK, carmencatalina... I was reminded of "Distant Voices", an excellent DS9 episode where Dr. Bashir is in a life-threatening coma and a little drama plays out in his head where all his friends take on roles which are really different aspects of his own personality. In Cloverdale, all of Scott's friends took on roles that he seemed to expect them to play. Except I don't know why Rush was a Justice of the Peace! But he was great in that role. I will place myself on the "liked it" side of this discussion. I enjoyed both the "dream" story (I got so that I was waiting to see what kind of part different people would play) and the story on the planet, which reminded me of the movie "Congo". Greer was his usual awesome self! I also liked how they used the kawoosh to fend off the aliens... stargate to the rescue!

ArchaeoNerd

[Blackhole]

Cloverdale is just like an avocado! It's soft and green with a hard core that's hardcore.

We mustn't. We, instead, should refer to the episode itself and see what happened and try to assume as little as possible.

At the end of Pathogen, Chloe and Rush's conversation was short with no obvious hints of hidden intentions. Similarily, no hints of any agreements was there in Rush's conversation with Gloria; rather it was just Rush saying that, in exchange for her freedom, she must play along.

Then, no mention was made of this until Chloe revealed her condition because she wanted to test her theory and stay with Scott; again, no hints of any agreements; Rush saw that the secret has been revealed, and made up an excuse, and that was that. Pathogen and Cloverdale showed no real evidence of any agreements between the two besides the blackmailing agreement.

That said, I don't completely dismiss your theory either; in fact, it'd be cool if they did turn around say that there was more to it; I just don't like how you completely dismissed my side of the discussion (calling it BS didn't help), as IMHO it's just what the episodes laid out and thus fairly plausible.

I don't believe that Rush is that good of a planner. He is very good, but not that good. He didn't have a plan for when Young stranded him on that planet, and his cover up of the bridge is wearing thinner and thinner by the day. IMHO Rush is flying by the seat of his pants making things up as he goes along. He recruited Chloe in the hopes that she'll help her solve problems, and if she does reveal the secret, then he has an excuse all prepared.

Let me ask you something. Your assertion is very open; "they must have an agreement" - how would that be proven? If there was no revelation of an agreement in the next episode, would you rethink your position, or will you think that it'll be revealed later? What if nothing happens in the episode after that? And after that? And so on?

What then? Will you stick to this even though there is no direct evidence?

Excellent Post

[carmencatalina]

OK, carmencatalina... I was reminded of "Distant Voices", an excellent DS9 episode where Dr. Bashir is in a life-threatening coma and a little drama plays out in his head where all his friends take on roles which are really different aspects of his own personality.

Green for you!

[Selene1212]

Dude, really? I had to hit page down 5 times to scroll through that wall of text. Whatever point you were making was missed, and it prolly wasnt that funny to begin with.

...And so you repost the whole thing without snipping it?

Also, they had Rush much longer than Chloe why didn't they alter him?

Smurf babies...

[[email protected]]

I have been a Stargate fan as long as I can remember!

I know SGU is not that rocking with the ratings and it has saddened me. But after watching the episode Cloverdale; I felt I should write this letter to you!

I have just one question for the SGU writing team? Where have you all been all this while? I strongly think episodes like Cloverdale is what the writers must strive to imagine and write. Cloverdale was unpredictable, kept me on the edge of the seat, and most importantly CLASSIC STARGATE!

I now feel that SGU deserves a third season if it can keep on airing episodes like Cloverdale for the rest of the season.

Also, I want to express that SGU and Stargate in general has a massive fan base outside of the US, especially in Asia. Thus, if the producers and executives at MGM can find a way to reach those loyal viewers through online streaming like Hulu.com (Hulu is not viewable outside the US), it could bring wonders for the franchise. It also can be a vast bonus revenue source since international companies like HP, Nokia, and Toyota can air their commercials on the streaming website. Most importantly, from the experience of an average fan streaming online officially would limit pirating effectively.

I hope you will react for sake of SGU for the sake of Gateworld (the fan site) by passing on my message to the writers and producers at SGU.

Thank You.

Ril Siraj

[alanp]

Sorry first post is a negitive. I am a massive Stargate fan, but even I have now finally had enough of Universe.

Dreams, visons, stupid emotional slow mo ends. What a shame to a show that could have been so good.

[Blackhole]

Smurf babies. . .

Funny

[Platschu]

I liked this episode, because it was only a setup for a symbolic marriage between Scott and Chloe. I hope they will stay together, whatever will their common fate be in the future. Nice idea from BW, but it was also a rip-off Changeling with some Starcraft Zerg feeling.

[sugarshaker]

Does anyone know what music they used for the wedding scene?

[Kaiphantom]

We mustn't. We, instead, should refer to the episode itself and see what happened and try to assume as little as possible.

At the end of Pathogen, Chloe and Rush's conversation was short with no obvious hints of hidden intentions. Similarily, no hints of any agreements was there in Rush's conversation with Gloria; rather it was just Rush saying that, in exchange for her freedom, she must play along.

Then, no mention was made of this until Chloe revealed her condition because she wanted to test her theory and stay with Scott; again, no hints of any agreements; Rush saw that the secret has been revealed, and made up an excuse, and that was that. Pathogen and Cloverdale showed no real evidence of any agreements between the two besides the blackmailing agreement.

That's just it. Blackmail is a more specific kind of agreement, which is why I just went with agreement itself. Without hard evidence, I went with the most open explanation. The main reason why I feel it isn't blackmail per se, is because we have already been shown that Rush and Chloe share a kind of kindship, due to their shared alien encounter. They understand each other on some level, and so I presume they come to some understanding of the alien situation. You can't blackmail someone who agrees with you.

Like one of those moments where you both did something awkward or stupid, and you both look at each other and say, "Let's never speak of this again." And you reply, "Yeah, I agree."

Consider a possible exchange, going from the end of Pathogen:


ARMSTRONG: I'm not cured, am I?

RUSH: No.

ARMSTRONG: They're going to lock me up again....

RUSH: I don't think locking you up, either is the best idea, either.

ARMSTRONG: Can't you just make it look like it worked? At least for awhile?

RUSH: They'll eventually find out, but I could do that. In return, I have some things I'd like your help with.

ARMSTRONG: Deal!

Made up, of course. But it clearly disproves the notion that what happened was blackmail. Instead, it looks like more like Rush and Chloe performing services for each other. As I said, an agreement.

You see, blackmail only works if the information you want kept secret never comes out, and only your blackmailer knows that information. You're scared of him revealing it. If neither you nor your "blackmailer" want the information released, and agree not to, then it's not blackmail. And I think it's obvious neither Rush, nor Chloe, want anyone else to know; Young would lock her up, and that's the last thing either of them wants.

Logically speaking, it has to be damn obvious that you can't keep her condition secret for too long. Like I said, I gathered that they would continue to observe her to see if the treatment worked, or her cover would be blown the first time she blacked out and fiddled with a console, or disappeared, etc. Both of them had to know that.

If the information you want kept secret is going to come out anyway, what point is there to playing along with a blackmailer? And that assumes malice on Rush's part, where we do NOT have any evidence of.

Let me ask you something. Your assertion is very open; "they must have an agreement" - how would that be proven? If there was no revelation of an agreement in the next episode, would you rethink your position, or will you think that it'll be revealed later? What if nothing happens in the episode after that? And after that? And so on?

These would be questions for your assertion, too. Thing is, mine is more open and general, while yours is more specific. Anyway, proof would come in the form of a flashback, or in showing them acting out whatever it is their agreement was. You have to remember, at this point, if it was blackmail, then the secret is out and the blackmail no longer works. Thus, Chloe would do nothing for Rush. So if we still see her doing stuff for Rush, it has to be because they had agreement that wasn't blackmail.

Remember also, Chloe knows Rush is the only other person who was kidnapped, and knows as much, if not more about the blues than anyone else. If there is anyone who is in a position to understand what is happening to her, it's him. Thus he's the natural choice for her to work with. She'd be willing to work with him so he could better understand what is happening to her, with the hope he can then figure out how to cure her.

So, not blackmail, just an agreement. There is no evidence for blackmail, thus Occam's Razor says to assume the simplest answer until we are shown otherwise.

[Kaiphantom]

What you don't seem to understand is genetic material won't by itself transmute anyone. You need a virus or nanobytes to do so. They rewrite the hosts DNA and transmutes their cells. For Scott to be at risk a virus or nanobytes have to have been transferred to him. Receiving altered DNA by itself wouldn’t be harmful.

You're still assuming you know what the aliens did to her. You don't. DNA encodes all the information regarding your genetic makeup; And Chloe's genetic code is most likely changing. That's all we know.

Chloe is having blackouts and so far has been caught doing meaningless activities and wondering around aimlessly. They caught her twiddling her hands at a closed case. We don't know whether her activities have a purpose or not. So far, I don't think she is behaving like someone who is controlled. Why would she now have extensive mathematical knowledge or language skills? What is to be gained by giving her enhanced immune protection and recovery ability. If the aliens wanted to use her as a spy why bother with these enhancements? How would they further her spying ability?

Well, it would suck to have their spy die. Doing what they can to keep her alive, means she can spy for them more (or whatever it is they want her to do). As for extensive mathematical knowledge, they could have given that to her, and hidden it in her subconscious. Remember, they know enough about Destiny to have James sabotage the FTL drives to stop the ship.

I tend to think what is happening is an unintended side effect of the alien's experimentation. I am not suggesting she be ignored but I don't think it necessary to lock her up. Rush made a good point when he suggested they monitor her and see what happens.

I agree with this. It could be an unintended side effect. We won't know until they reveal later, what the alien's plan was. Both Rush and Chloe know Young will lock her up, and neither one wants that.

If you remember after the aliens captured her they were trying to board Destiny. The only reason Chloe and Rush escaped is because Young interceded via the stones and freed Rush. It seems to me the aliens had no intention of returning her and her escape and return was a very fortunate happenstance for both of them. If this was the case why bother transforming her? Also, they had Rush much longer than Chloe why didn't they alter him?

Who knows? Perhaps they did some very light modifications on Rush. Perhaps they used Rush for study, so when they got Chloe, they knew better how to manipulate human DNA and thus did it. Perhaps they had a plan to give Chloe back, or make it look like she escaped or something, but Rush's escape preempted that. Given Rush's ease of escape, I'd say their thought processes were something like:

"Subject #1 is escaping; he's heading for subject #2, let's stop him!"

"No, wait, this works out perfectly. Let #1 free #2 and have them escape! We were trying to think of a plausible way of getting #2 onto the ship to work for us, and this will do nicely."

[PG15]

That's just it. Blackmail is a more specific kind of agreement, which is why I just went with agreement itself.

Interesting. That is not what I thought you meant; I thought you were thinking that Rush was planning something beyond just using Chloe's powers until they're discovered.

In that case, I think we pretty much agree. Your argument that the blackmailer wouldn't mind releasing the info vs. Rush obviously not wanting to lose Chloe as a helper is convincing.

Alright fine. No blackmail, and all that happened was Rush wanting to use Chloe's knowledge for as long as he can until the truth comes out (which it did, pretty fast).

That was surprisingly pleasant.

[Kaiphantom]

Interesting. That is not what I thought you meant; I thought you were thinking that Rush was planning something beyond just using Chloe's powers until they're discovered.

In that case, I think we pretty much agree. Your argument that the blackmailer wouldn't mind releasing the info vs. Rush obviously not wanting to lose Chloe as a helper is convincing.

Alright fine. No blackmail, and all that happened was Rush wanting to use Chloe's knowledge for as long as he can until the truth comes out (which it did, pretty fast).

That was surprisingly pleasant.

Communication may be difficult, but sometimes it pays off. ;p

Rush could be planning something bigger, but at this point, all I can see is him wanting to use Chloe's powers to solve equations and help figure things out. And in the process, better understand what the aliens did to her. He has to realize that she is a bit of a threat to the ship if she's been compromised, so it is imperative he understand her, and most likely ultimately curing her (unless he realizes he can't or doesn't want to, yet doesn't tell her that, but we have no evidence he may have done so).

That's why I don't believe blackmail is accurate, because they both want the same things. Thus, an agreement makes more sense.

[lopo30]

so people want a classic stargate ep, but when they get it they whine and complain, and don't even watch half of it...you guys make me sick

it was a filler and for a classic sg episode it would be new planet new problem to fix new tech to find or new friends
sg1 and sga were good cause they were action based adventure show with positive feelings
it's like tng what was good cause every episode was new adventure what was interesting to watch
i look from scient fiction series the positive future technology , space chips and space battle like in ds9 season 5 last episode to season 6 sixth episode
if i want to watch drama and all that i would watch 90210 ...
stargate is in the point what is like was with star trek , they made new series and the raitings went down and then they ended these series .. sgu will be the last stargate series if they dont come up with positive and interesting stories
sgu stargate episodes look like they are fillers
for the sgu grew they dont belong in the chip but still they come up with solutions to how solve the problem like this episode .. the medic they have , have no clue what she is doing but still have more medic skills then best doctors in earth