Gates and Power

[garhkal]

I think with these gates, it is more that the additional power unlocks the gates capacity to go further... and as to why they needed the seeder ship, i feel it is cause if i hae one hose with holes in (remember destinies power conduits are damaged), i won't get all the water out i need. BUT if i have 2, i will...

[blueintegraboy]

Anybody figure out why the Atlantis gate was the only gate in the Pegasus that was capable of dialing Earth, while the Asuran gate could not even though they had many ZPMs?

I mean, if we are saying that any gate can go anywhere with enough energy, then why did the Asurans not go to Earth?

[MattSilver 3k]

Anybody figure out why the Atlantis gate was the only gate in the Pegasus that was capable of dialing Earth, while the Asuran gate could not even though they had many ZPMs?

I mean, if we are saying that any gate can go anywhere with enough energy, then why did the Asurans not go to Earth?

A special control crystal was required if I recall correctly.

[blueintegraboy]

A special control crystal was required if I recall correctly.

So the Pegasus gates were built with a lock-out to dial Earth. I guess they were stargate v.3, so I guess they could have been built like that.

[Hohenzollern]

Most importantly; the power reversal... Rush is now quite obsessed knowing what Destiny's true mission is (Aftermath). He was unfazed by the gate foundry; and the new Alien standing right there; as he worked on the console.

Consider how he, again, as in first season was maneuvering for the crew to get off/home and he is left behind alone. When it became obvious Young would not allow this (stated he was sending reinforcements); Rush initiated the power reversal to kill the gate possibly sending EVERYONE home (Young would have taken Rush back); and thus everyone continuing (with Rush) on Destiny. Re Rush's "conscience?Franklin?" comments at the epilogue.

[Kaiphantom]

Its not about the generation though, its about the storage. So this begs the question. The ancients 1 million years ago give or take, built ships that when fully powered had the power by your calculations of 'several' zpms. 1 million years later their ships are powered with tech less powerful than a single zpm? Aurora class?

The only thing that had the power of several ZPM's was their Atlantis-type cities, and that was the zenith of their civilization. An Aurora class was a smaller ship with more mass-production type qualities. Think of it this way:

Destiny was designed to be one-of-a-kind. There was a lot of hi-tech stuff that went into it, but as a result, it would have "cost" more (even if money was no object, there is a cost in resources used). It's not the type of thing to mass produce. For the Ancients, a ZPM powered Aurora worked perfectly fine for cruising about the local galaxy.

In other words, a fully charged destiny with shields should be able to hold off an attack by the wraith for how long? Why wouldn't they just fly Atlantis into the sun, park it there, use the scoopers and never leave. They could fend off an attack as long as the sun was viable, indefinitely.

There is seemingly a bit of a disconnect because TPTB introduced the sun-refueling technique in SGU. But ultimately, I don't think it matters. Even if they could fly Atlantis into the sun and scoop up energy, they would be trapped there. They wouldn't be able to attack back, and all the wraith had to do would be to blockade them. If all you can do is sit there in the sun, trapped in your city, then what is the point of being there?

Also, remember the Ancients lost because the Wraith had massive numbers. That means that, even if their weapons were weaker, they were multiplied by an incredibly large number. Sooner or later, shields are going to fail.

Its like there is a disconnect, power supply/storage got less efficient the more advanced they got? and not just like 20 or 50 years, but 1,000,000 years advancement

A ZPM handles both power generation and storage. In that light, once the ZPM was developed and they realized it was in a handy-dandy size, there wouldn't have been much need to continue advancement of regular storage. Not when you can just plug in a fresh new battery and you can manufacture those fairly easily. So yes, in one respect, Destiny probably was the peak of their traditional energy storage. Once the ZPM came along, it was no longer necessary.

In some respects, it's like someone saying: "Why buy a solar-powered car? I can buy a gasoline one for much cheaper, and refueling isn't an issue." Destiny is Solar-powered, but the Ancients had plenty of gas to refuel their tech a million years later.

[Descended]

I think Rush did reverse the power transfer and the aliens messing with the controls was just a red herring... he then was really quick to separate and leave the seeder ship behind.

There were a dozen aliens but Destiny has many more military personnel (even more if you armed the LA to fight the aliens) - I don't understand why Young didn't send a military team over there to kill the aliens. Even if all the power was drained from Destiny as long as you seized control of the seeder ship you could repower it (and its not like it could go anywhere with a totally disable Destiny docked on it)

He gave up on that way home pretty damn quickly considering it is the first real chance we have seen them have. Reminds me of Voyager where every week they were shown a way home but they never really pursued them beyond trying once and never tried to make them work.

[The_Asgard_live]

We don't really know what it takes to construct a ship like Destiny.

Not in an explicit sense we don't, but we do know it takes 1 million year old ancient tech to build one. Should be a breeze a million years later.

Tapping the power of stars may require specialized shields that are not adequate for combat and creating shields that work fine for both tasks might be so hard that it's not worth it.The ancients left after the plague might not had the resources and the man power to build more. Or maybe they developed shields that were impenetrable with less power delivered to them and the capability of storing so much energy was not necessary anymore. I mean with all that power and Destiny's shield doesn't seem to be more powerful than that of a Ha'tak. Once they made advancement in shield technology and in more energy efficient systems they figured that they'll do just fine powered only by ZPMs.

It just doesn't make sense to me. Its the storage of power that important. A Destiny class ship (or at least the seeder variety) can store multiple ZPM's worth of power.

Now I know the ancients were portrayed as tactical morons, but if you could build ships with the power storing capabilities of Destiny, that can deliver multiple ZPMs worth of power in a battle or whatever, and to recharge need only seek out the nearest star, why build ships and send them out to battle powered with a single ZPM device or less that can only be replaced by visiting the nearest ZPM factory.

A special control crystal was required if I recall correctly.

Hmmmm sounds right, but now that I think of it, thats kind of useless isn't it? Unless all MW gates are locked out? Bad guy would just dial a different gate in the MW. Twice through the gate instead of once.

[The_Asgard_live]

Destiny was designed to be one-of-a-kind. There was a lot of hi-tech stuff that went into it, but as a result, it would have "cost" more (even if money was no object, there is a cost in resources used). It's not the type of thing to mass produce. For the Ancients, a ZPM powered Aurora worked perfectly fine for cruising about the local galaxy.

Hi-tech 1 million years ago. Though, I agree, a ZPM was perfectly fine until it wasn't.

There is seemingly a bit of a disconnect because TPTB introduced the sun-refueling technique in SGU. But ultimately, I don't think it matters. Even if they could fly Atlantis into the sun and scoop up energy, they would be trapped there. They wouldn't be able to attack back, and all the wraith had to do would be to blockade them. If all you can do is sit there in the sun, trapped in your city, then what is the point of being there?

Not true. First, individuals could gate in an out to anywhere they want. And since they would be essentially plugged into a power source at all times, their shields should never give way. So why couldn't they park themselves there, launch drones and pick off wraith indefinitely? If drones weren't manufactured on site, again, the gate works. If for some reason they should want to leave, their fully charged shields would only need to sustain hits until they enter into hyperspace.

[OboeTheres]

Not in an explicit sense we don't, but we do know it takes 1 million year old ancient tech to build one. Should be a breeze a million years later.

Theoretically, yes. Unfortunately, society doesn't always progress in what might seem like a logical pattern.

When looking at our own society, maybe the Apollo program would be a good thing to compare Destiny to. We built spaceships that could go to the moon, and we went there. Then, instead of using new technology to build better spaceships to go to the moon, we just sort of stopped. Going to the moon just wasn't that important to us anymore, and we built a different sort of spaceship that could do different things.

Maybe Destiny was like this. Maybe for a while there was a lot of interest in the 'great unknown' and the ancients got all excited about it, and made all the seeder ships and the destiny. Maybe after a few generations interest simply waned, and they went about doing things closer to home, things that didn't require the technology that they used for the destiny. They simply started developing in a different direction, and didn't necessarily look back. After half a million years, Destiny would probably be no more than a footnote in history, and by the time of Atlantis, very few probably even knew it had ever set out.

Just a maybe.

[Kaiphantom]

Now I know the ancients were portrayed as tactical morons, but if you could build ships with the power storing capabilities of Destiny, that can deliver multiple ZPMs worth of power in a battle or whatever, and to recharge need only seek out the nearest star, why build ships and send them out to battle powered with a single ZPM device or less that can only be replaced by visiting the nearest ZPM factory.

You're assuming all shields are created equal. If you get into physics, you'll learn that there are different particles that can only be blocked certain ways. Thus it makes logical sense that the more things a shield can defend against, the more power it draws. Also, any other special functions you tie into the shields can cause it to draw more power. I get the feeling Destiny's shield is a power hog because it was deliberately built with the function to go into a star and draw power. Destiny wasn't a battleship; it wasn't designed for extended firefights. And I'd be willing to bet Aurora class ship shields were designed to be more power efficient so they could last longer, rather than add the "be able to go into a sun and draw power" variety. I think if they added that function, Aurora-class shields wouldn't have been nearly as strong.

Also, you have to recall that matter was actually passing through Destiny's shields. Thus, any ship going into a sun to recharge is technically vulnerable to enemy weapons.

Hi-tech 1 million years ago.

You should realize that your age range isn't quite exact, and we aren't sure exactly when Destiny was launched. It's possible that Destiny was launched only a thousand years before the Ancient civilization fell. Maybe only a couple hundred. The ship is "billions of light years" from Earth, but it's traveling Faster Than Light and we don't know how much faster than light it's traveling. Seems to be pretty darn quick, though.

Not true. First, individuals could gate in an out to anywhere they want. And since they would be essentially plugged into a power source at all times, their shields should never give way. So why couldn't they park themselves there, launch drones and pick off wraith indefinitely? If drones weren't manufactured on site, again, the gate works. If for some reason they should want to leave, their fully charged shields would only need to sustain hits until they enter into hyperspace.

Drones would be destroyed in the Sun's corona; it's really frickin' hot in the Sun's corona, hotter than deeper inside the star. Also, as we learn in "Red Sky" the ancients had put safety protocols into the gate to prevent the wormhole from crossing a star, as Bad Things could happen. Thus, gating in and out while inside a star is a bad idea.

As for "fully charged shields would only need to sustain hits until they enter hyperspace" that wouldn't work if their shields failed 5 seconds after leaving the sun due to massed wraith presence sitting outside with weapons locked, ready to shoot. And they don't have to even fail, really. As we've seen, Atlantis shields require very little power when nothing is hitting it, but power is drained proportionally to the forces being applied. And the startup to the star drive requires 3 ZPM's; in other words, a whole LOT of power. The wraith would only need to mass enough firepower to drain Atlantis's power via their shields until the star drive didn't have enough juice to enter hyperspace.

[The_Asgard_live]

You're assuming all shields are created equal.

Yes and no. I agree that everything you said is possible. Its more about the power storage for me, but yes, I was assuming like a hyperdrive, a shield, the more power, the better performance. For example, when they plugged in the single ZPM into Atlantis they were able to sit back and watch several wraith hives bombard Atlantis to no effect other than a light show.

Also, you have to recall that matter was actually passing through Destiny's shields. Thus, any ship going into a sun to recharge is technically vulnerable to enemy weapons.

True but drones are able to pass through shields, as were the bad Asgard, yet the city was still protected, so I was figuring they weren't vulnerable.

You should realize that your age range isn't quite exact

Yeah, I know there is some question about it. Somewhere between hundreds of thousands and millions?

Drones would be destroyed in the Sun's corona; it's really frickin' hot in the Sun's corona, hotter than deeper inside the star.

Thought of this, decided they would work anyway 50/50 shot.

Also, as we learn in "Red Sky" the ancients had put safety protocols into the gate to prevent the wormhole from crossing a star, as Bad Things could happen. Thus, gating in and out while inside a star is a bad idea.

Didn't think of this, good point. Though since they are not actually engulfed in the sun, I think this just means the gates they could get to would be limited to what side of the sun they are on if that makes sense.

As for "fully charged shields would only need to sustain hits until they enter hyperspace" that wouldn't work if their shields failed 5 seconds after leaving the sun due to massed wraith presence sitting outside with weapons locked, ready to shoot. And they don't have to even fail, really. As we've seen, Atlantis shields require very little power when nothing is hitting it, but power is drained proportionally to the forces being applied. And the startup to the star drive requires 3 ZPM's; in other words, a whole LOT of power. The wraith would only need to mass enough firepower to drain Atlantis's power via their shields until the star drive didn't have enough juice to enter hyperspace.

Yeah but see above they plugged just *1* ZPM into Atlantis and took a bombardment to no effect. And didn't McKay say they could go on like that for days? If Atlantis was in the sun, plugged in and fully powering itself and shields to the tune of several or more ZPMs I don't see it being an issue. The hives would exhaust themselves (can they fire indefinitely? don't they have power issues of their own?) And if the wraith were stupid enough to bring in the bulk of their hives to one place, it'd be the best trap ever.

Interesting about the star drive, I always thought that had more to do with getting the city into space? If its already in space is it still such a hog?

[The_Asgard_live]

Theoretically, yes. Unfortunately, society doesn't always progress in what might seem like a logical pattern.

When looking at our own society, maybe the Apollo program would be a good thing to compare Destiny to. We built spaceships that could go to the moon, and we went there. Then, instead of using new technology to build better spaceships to go to the moon, we just sort of stopped. Going to the moon just wasn't that important to us anymore, and we built a different sort of spaceship that could do different things.

Maybe Destiny was like this. Maybe for a while there was a lot of interest in the 'great unknown' and the ancients got all excited about it, and made all the seeder ships and the destiny. Maybe after a few generations interest simply waned, and they went about doing things closer to home, things that didn't require the technology that they used for the destiny. They simply started developing in a different direction, and didn't necessarily look back. After half a million years, Destiny would probably be no more than a footnote in history, and by the time of Atlantis, very few probably even knew it had ever set out.

Just a maybe.

All plausible I suppose. Though not very satisfying. Ignore everything I was saying about shields and this and that. The argument has been (by those that take this point of view) that Destiny is more or less unreachable. That even the ancients couldn't get there because its farther out than even they had anticipated, let alone the Asgard or their knowledge, and nothing short of a ridiculous number of ZPMs or Icurus planet can do it. And yet in this episode a million+? year old space ship can do it. And the ship doesn't do it with a magic power generating device, but your average sun + good power storage.

I think the writers have some work to do.

[Kaiphantom]

True but drones are able to pass through shields, as were the bad Asgard, yet the city was still protected, so I was figuring they weren't vulnerable.

I can rationalize that as drones being specifically designed to pass through, and thus more difficult for the Wraith to reproduce that. Sun gases, however, are a more known quantity.

Yeah, I know there is some question about it. Somewhere between hundreds of thousands and millions?

Impossible to say. We have no real time frame, except before the Ancient ATA gene technology.

Didn't think of this, good point. Though since they are not actually engulfed in the sun, I think this just means the gates they could get to would be limited to what side of the sun they are on if that makes sense.

For them to be far enough in to scoop up energy, they would be in it enough. Remember, the issue with Red Sky was the wormhole picking up an element and landing it in a sun.

Yeah but see above they plugged just *1* ZPM into Atlantis and took a bombardment to no effect. And didn't McKay say they could go on like that for days? If Atlantis was in the sun, plugged in and fully powering itself and shields to the tune of several or more ZPMs I don't see it being an issue. The hives would exhaust themselves (can they fire indefinitely? don't they have power issues of their own?) And if the wraith were stupid enough to bring in the bulk of their hives to one place, it'd be the best trap ever.

Yeah, but under that bombardment, they were informed the shield would only last a limited time(I can't remember exactly how long, but it came up twice; once with wraith and once with Asurans). The Atlantis shield is very special, in that it can block everything as long as power is supplied. It's not like other shields which can fail eventually, even when there is still power.

But you can also look at this as part of the Ancient stupidity (they did a LOT of dumb things). No one thought to ask, "Hey, now that we have this new, nifty Atlantis-type shield which can block anything as long as it has power, why don't we dig up that old star-power harvesting tech we abandoned long ago and park our city in the sun?" I mean, they pretty much forgot about Destiny, so it wouldn't be too surprising they forgot about other old tech. For an advanced race, they weren't too bright...

Interesting about the star drive, I always thought that had more to do with getting the city into space? If its already in space is it still such a hog?

According to McKay, the Star Drive uses most of the energy for powering up and entering hyperspace. Once it is in hyperspace, it requires very little. It's unclear whether part of that is leaving a planet's atmosphere or not, though they did use a that drilling station for a good deal of power before they left the atmosphere. At any rate, the wraith would only need X amount of ships to deliver Y amount of firepower in order to deplete the shields in Z amount of time before it had time to jump.

[geddarkstorm]

All plausible I suppose. Though not very satisfying. Ignore everything I was saying about shields and this and that. The argument has been (by those that take this point of view) that Destiny is more or less unreachable. That even the ancients couldn't get there because its farther out than even they had anticipated, let alone the Asgard or their knowledge, and nothing short of a ridiculous number of ZPMs or Icurus planet can do it. And yet in this episode a million+? year old space ship can do it. And the ship doesn't do it with a magic power generating device, but your average sun + good power storage.

I think the writers have some work to do.

No one said the Ancients couldn't reach Destiny. They never actually tried. Their civilization fell and then the few remnants went on to ascend. Destiny was totally forgotten in favor or ascension. Moreover, who said the Asgard ever knew about Destiny?

Power might not even be that big an issue, knowing the actual address however, is. I don't remember them ever saying a ZPM couldn't reach Destiny, but I do know ZPMs are too precious too few, and Earth has all of two. One almost depleted (in Atlantis) and one locked into Odyssey, that's it.

Now, if we knew how ZPMs were made.. that'd add a lot to the discussion.