'Awakening' (203) General Discussion

[morbosfist]

Well, when Destiny makes a pit stop on a star, to re-fill it's power supply, then it stands to reason that the ancients were forward thinking enough to understand that the Destiny was going to be on a long, long journey.
Since Universe is infinite, and if Destiny never stopped, the amount of data would be unimaginable.
Rather than that, the base of the Stargate being able to retain all the info of all gates within the galaxy would be more feasible. Within the galaxy, although the gates wouldn't be able dial to every gate, it could update the info, as more gates are seeded, some become disabled. etc...
Additionally, changes in planetary conditions would be another important set of data that would be updated.
Destiny, itself would only need the data of few galaxies in it's path, and probably overall summaries.

And how are you supposed to retrieve all that data then? Fly back through every galaxy?

[garhkal]

I'm starting to think something else is going on between Young and Rush. Oh, they're not going to go all BFF any time soon but I think Young scuttled the plan in the incursion to save Rush. I think the last thing Rush wanted Young to do in Sabotage was sit in that chair - to keep him alive or to keep him from power, I don';t know. I have a sneaking suspicion that he stranded Telford for Young. Either because he thinks Young is easier to deal with or, as I'm starting to suspect, there is some sort of whacky respect going on there. And yes, he needs a crew, of course, but these guys have been pitted against each other for a while and part of having an enemy is getting to know them pretty well. I think that's what's happening

Yup. Better the devil you know... imo that might be what his mentality was..

What would Rush have to gain by transferring power from Destiny to the seeder? If he wanted to stop the gate dialing, he would have just stopped the transfer and not reversed it....which then puts Destiny at risk.

Precicely the reason i do not think it was rush... but the browns.

That's not even close to impossible, not when the same species created the Ancient Repository of Knowledge.

A device small enough to fit on a wall.... Agreed. BUT i would LVOE to see the ships memory core.

I suppose they have run out of Gate ID numbers too (like IP addresses you'd think there would be some form of identifier apart from Gate Address) because if say 10 000 gates were seeded per year that's 10 billion gates or more - really the question is how forward thinking were the Ancients?

Say they do 20000 per galaxy.. that is not that many, since each galaxy is its own network so could reuse the numbers.



On a different note. I am getting sick and tired of the back and fourt over who is responsible, at fault since it filed up last weeks ep thread, and is taking over this one. I may not be a mod but for frak sake, take that to the tread on that ep!

[Misfits]

Having said that, I don't think it's too likely. The seeder ships can already relay information back to Destiny, so why would there be a need to dock to get information? The spare parts theory sounds plausible, but without evidence, my personal theory is that it docked to get information about the seeder ship itself, to see what may be broke and why it stopped. It would explain why there were no gates coming up, and why the Aftermath planet was the last planet with a gate. It would also explain why there was no countdown clock. The ship should have known how long the data transfer would take, and set the clock accordingly.

I believe my theory, which you did a very good job explaining up to a point, is the best answer.

It may also explain the sizable energy reserve, necessary if you're going to leap frog the other seeder ships ahead.

If periodic docking-data-transfer is not the situation, then you would have to propose that this may be the first. Over million years on the project, and this is first? That makes less sense.

And all the data transfer from Seeder to Destiny was going to take about 2 hours?
After million+ years, that would be inane.

Lastly, what is the central question is was this a one-time event or part of regular routine.

For example, Destiny stop in 'Faith' was a one-time event.
Destiny' trajectory toward the sun in 'Darkness/Light was part of regular routine, which the crew did not know at the time.

All indication, as far as i can see, point this event as another part of a routine.

Agree here. Information storage would not have been a problem for the Ancients. Even on Earth, the amount of information we can store on smaller and smaller drives is increasing at an incredible pace. Give us a 1000 years, and we'd have drives that fit all the data about Earth and humanity, on a drive that's the size of your fingertip. And that's a conservative estimate. The Ancients, at the point they launched Destiny, would most likely be able to do far better.

As we have seen in current technological progress, the more we're able to fit in a space, the more we find to store. In another words, Digital data storage capacity for the entire planet in 1950 might have been a gigabyte.
When I first bought a home computer, the data storage requirement was so small at the time that I thought 2 boxes of 3.5 inch floppies, about 15 meg would last me a lifetime. Boy was I wrong.

Currently I'm using 1 TB 3.5 drives as storage and I'm running out of space periodically.
I'm sure we'll be able to squeeze more and more in smaller spaces and and our desire to keep more and more will only increase.
And that is why, to believe that Destiny has kept everything that it was able to ontain in million+ years would be inane.

[PG15]

Although your hypothesis would fit the current set of circumstances, the more logical theory would be a rotating seeder ships sequence.

Since you did not say why your theory is more logical, I'm going to assume it's because of:

Yes it would be impossible. No matter how much storage device you started with, eventually you would run out of room, and we're talking about million + years.

The most sensible solution would be a rotating system of FIFO.

In which case, I reply with: unless the ships were designed to fit in that much data in the first place. Again, I point to the vast amount of data stored in the Repository of Knowledge; clearly the Ancients can make databases of vast storage space.

Now, can you answer me something? I missed where you detailed your theory of data transfer, so I'm confused. Are you saying that Destiny periodically docks with Seed Ships so as to download data from them (which is what happened in the show)? Well then, doesn't that mean that Destiny has enough storage space for all that data in the first place? So why are we arguing about it?

I mean, assuming no data is turfed, something has to store it all, right?

Unfortunately, I can't find the exact quote, but I'm pretty certain that Mallozzi said on his blog that Destiny shouldn't ever reach a seeder ship unless something was wrong with the seeder (in this case, probably the alien residents)...

Last season, I got more than a few fans asking about the possibility of Destiny running into one of the Ancient seed ships, those trailblazing vessels launched well in advance of Destiny, charged with the task of seeding suitable planets with stargates and establishing the path to follow. My response to those who asked has always been to point out that, short of some sort of mechanical or system failure stranding a seed ship, it’s highly unlikely the Destiny would cross paths with one. Yep, HIGHLY unlikely.

http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/...fy-travel-day/

So, if Word of God is important to you, then this part of the debate is over.

[morbosfist]

If periodic docking-data-transfer is not the situation, then you would have to propose that this may be the first. Over million years on the project, and this is first? That makes less sense.

Only if you stick to the theory that it was solely to transfer data, rather than mechanical failure.

And all the data transfer from Seeder to Destiny was going to take about 2 hours?
After million+ years, that would be inane.

Maybe by our standards. You don't think the Ancients have moved beyond binary computing?

Lastly, what is the central question is was this a one-time event or part of regular routine.

For example, Destiny stop in 'Faith' was a one-time event.
Destiny' trajectory toward the sun in 'Darkness/Light was part of regular routine, which the crew did not know at the time.

All indication, as far as i can see, point this event as another part of a routine.

You've made this determination based on nothing. There's no evidence it ever happened before, no indication it will ever happen again.

As we have seen in current technological progress, the more we're able to fit in a space, the more we find to store. In another words, Digital data storage capacity for the entire planet in 1950 might have been a gigabyte.
When I first bought a home computer, the data storage requirement was so small at the time that I thought 2 boxes of 3.5 inch floppies, about 15 meg would last me a lifetime. Boy was I wrong.

Currently I'm using 1 TB 3.5 drives as storage and I'm running out of space periodically.
I'm sure we'll be able to squeeze more and more in smaller spaces and and our desire to keep more and more will only increase.
And that is why, to believe that Destiny has kept everything that it was able to ontain in million+ years would be inane.

Flawed logic. As data storage abilities increase, so to does our ability to create and store larger and more complex code using that space. But, if you have a project which uses a set medium, the data storage of which you can quantify and predict, you can design a system which will contain more data storage than you will ever need.

Finally, see PG15 above. Word of God shoots down the entire idea. The seeders were never intended to stop, thus this must be mechanical failure.

[SciFiRick]

Oh, I definitely agree Young was not given all the appropriate information.... I still think though that at the time, given the information Rush knew and Young was told, the right decision was made. Was Rush neglectful? Sure. Given the access he had in the bridge, he should have done a more thorough analysis of the planet. But is he to blame? Eh... I still think no, but I also understand why if someone was to place blame somewhere, it would be on Rush...

And another thing, who's to say that there wasn't something horribly wrong with the shuttle that would have broke anyway, regardless of how turbulent the atmosphere was? Maybe the shuttle failing in a planet's atmosphere was a blessing in disguise, instead of it failing in the dead of space and dooming the entire crew instead of just one.... And if that was the case, and the shuttle would have failed eventually anyway, then Rush stopping the ship to explore this planet actually saved people....unfortunately, at the expense of Riley's life of course....

What is interesting about the shuttles loss of flight controls that caused the crash that no one has suggested that they could have run out of fuel. I just don't recall anyone stating how the shuttle/s were powered. It doesn't appear to be using solar power but some other type of fuel. Maybe somebody can remember when that aspect was discussed. If not, then you have to include running out of fuel to be another possibility.

[morbosfist]

What is interesting about the shuttles loss of flight controls that caused the crash that no one has suggested that they could have run out of fuel. I just don't recall anyone stating how the shuttle/s were powered. It doesn't appear to be using solar power but some other type of fuel. Maybe somebody can remember when that aspect was discussed. If not, then you have to include running out of fuel to be another possibility.

The shuttle has to be powered/refueled by Destiny, so it couldn't possibly have just run out. Power failed to half the systems, but the ship's subspace communication still worked.

[PG15]

Can I say something really random right now?

So, after linking to that TVTrope page, I started browsing it (obviously), and ended up reading the entire entry for Inception. I then came here and realized how strange it is that I was reading a thread about Awakening.

Oh, reality.

[morbosfist]

TVTropes will do that to you.

[SciFiRick]

Quote Originally Posted by SciFiRick View Post
I agree and I see it exactly the same in regard to your remarks. However, in my post I also spoke about the Eli, Brody, Volker, Park blame, I can not see from my point of view how Eli, Brody, Park, Volker can be included in the blame. From their point of view, they obviously don't know what Rush knows (The Bridge) and none of those people would take it upon themselves to alert the leadership every time they pass a planet or group of planets because unless the ship drops out of FTL there is nothing that can be done. When the ship drops out then everyone has a sense of urgency about them to have as much info gather to give Young or Rush when they get to the gate room. They are all expecting that Rush continues to tell Destiny that they are low on resources. I think it is safe to say that only Rush knows how to tell the ship of their needs. Rush just doesn't tell them everything.

Quote Originally Posted by Kaiphantom

You'd be assuming everyone else is an idiot, then. Which is, ironically, the reasoning Rush uses to convince himself to keep the bridge secret. The only reason I bring blame onto Eli, Park, Brody, and Volker, is because people want to blame Rush due to him knowing about conditions on the planet and not telling anyone. But as we've seen from past episodes, everyone else has access to the same information. They can pull it up from the database or use the ship's scanners. So one can either blame them equally with Rush for not saying anything, or don't blame anyone at all.

I agree that Rush believes that everyone is an idiot but your assumption of my assumption that everyone is an idiot would be incorrect. I think the science team is pretty bright. As far as the science team being blamed. I do not see, from my point of view any evidence that points to them being blamed. I will not be convinced otherwise just as you will also not be convinced otherwise. Deadlocked on this point.

[Misfits]

In which case Young was an idiot for trusting Rush, heh.

I knew you would put the blame on Young. I agree. Young should have shot and killed Rush in the Alien ship planet in 'Justice.'

But yes, I expect an astrophysicist to be able to glance at a planet and be able to quickly tell what conditions are like (that would be Volker, the guy that realized the Faith planet and star were funky based on sensor readings).

So, what you're saying is that Rush, who is the best Young has in every field that he can think of, Young's words here. didn't notice in 45+ minutes what Volker should notice at a glance?
You sure you want to say that?

If they assumed Destiny thought it was perfectly 100% safe, then they truly are a ship of fools. Given all the planets that Destiny has stopped at, Destiny has a fairly poor definition of "safe." Then again, it was programmed with Ancients in mind, not lowly humans.

Where did I say 100%?

If Rush stated it was non-functioning, then that information had to be there. Otherwise, they'd probably say something like, "Where did you get that information?" But I don't really think whether it shows up on a list of dial-able gates is important. Even if it didn't, normal sensors should tell them everything they need to know. Hell, even the shuttle can scan planets and give you readings.

Like I already explained it, since the planet was not dialable, it wouldn't show in the list of planets available to dial, therefore, nobody would know whether it was locked or not.
And, since when does because Rush says something, it is a fact? Just like when Rush said Gen. O'Neill placed him in charge? or maybe like when he declared the Icarus type planet on Destiny's path 1 year ahead?

I get what you're saying here. I really do. You're trying to say that, because Rush stopped the ship, somehow that gave him authority over everything that happened from that point on. So you'd totally believe that, if I then sprained my ankle walking down the hallway of Destiny, I could then blame Rush because he stopped the ship 10 minutes earlier? Really, I love this line of reasoning, because I can now absolve myself of any responsibility for my actions, merely by saying someone did something else. "Oh hey, it's not my fault he's dead. Yeah, I pushed him off a cliff, but someone else removed the railing here first."

Rush didn't have the authority to stop Destiny, that's why Rush is sorely responsible.

In that situation, Jack was only risking himself. Not the safety and lives of 80+ people.

The question was has Jack ever done something purely emotional. Please try to keep up with you own questions.

False Analogy. Rush didn't falsify any records pertaining to the planet. All the data was there for others to take. Even if you ignore the database, they can access Destiny's sensors, scan the planet, and have all the information they need. They didn't, for whatever reason.

How about the false info he gave everybody else when he claimed Destiny stopped. Why didn't he tell the truth? The truth would have been, 'I stopped Destiny even though there is a big Red X on it.'

It doesn't sound like we're quite clear. Let's say I make an offhand comment sometime, that I wanted Jack dead. You get worried, and go to the FBI. They produce an undercover agent to pose as a hitman and approach me, saying he can kill for cash. At that point, all the FBI has done is furnished an opportunity. If I say, "Okay, here's the money, go kill Jack" then they can arrest me, and I am guilty. All the FBI did was create an opportunity, a temptation if you will. It was MY choice to act on it; perhaps stupidly for not doing any research into this choice.

Ok, let's look at it this way, Let's say instead of FBI, I actually got you a hitman, You said yes, here's the ,omey, go kill Jack. He kills Jack.
Even though you didn't actually shoot Jack, You decided to make it happen. Do you have any responsibility?

Not according to US laws.

Thank god they weren't in US when this happened.

Nope. You misunderstand Entrapment if so. Entrapment cannot happen if all the person did was present a choice, or open a door. It would be like me holding up a cookie and saying, "Take it." If you took it, what happens to you because of it is your fault, legally speaking.

Even if you want to believe it was, "locked out" can mean a lot of things. Like Rush said, he wasn't sure why it was, other than the gate was non-functional.

I just love when you guys start parsing words, find some way of saying what it says doesn't mean what it says. It means what You say it means. By the way, are you running for office? This sounds like practice.

So Rush failing to notice isn't reasonable, and thus he can't be blamed, thank you. And I do agree, the more I look at this, the bigger a plot hole I'm seeing. For Volker, a trained astrophysicist, to NOT take a look at the planet via sensors before going, is highly stupid.

So, according to you, if Rush makes mistakes, it's reasonable and excusable. If Rush makes decisions without authority, that's fine, too.

legally, Rush is completely innocent in Riley's death.

And you wonder why Young gave him a beating.

The problem is, you don't have evidence for what you believe. It's just a theory. In the absence of hard evidence, science demands Occam's Razor: the simplest solution is usually the correct one. That means, don't make it more complex than you have to.

Please don't admit to us that you're a simpleton, I never accused you of being one.
I don't think Occam knew Rush before he said that, because, if he did, he wouldn't have said that.

And usually is not always.

Well, you were the one who didn't think much of the other scientists, heh. They get away scot-free because they're dumb?

You think Rush should go free because he's so smart. Sounds like same difference to me.

I have to start with Rush stopping Destiny, because that was the initiating event.

You finally got it right. That was the initiating event, That's why he bears the sole responsibility. And he did it without Authority.

Heh, tricky question. Mostly yes, but only because the military have the guns. Remember, the civilians mutinied before and lost. Was Saddam the commander of Iraq at one time? Yep, technically speaking.

Not tricky at all. Who is the Commander of Destiny?
Here's an easier one Who has the authority to select the Commander of Destiny?
Mostly doesn't work. It's like pregnancy, either you're pregnant or you're not. You can't be mostly pregnant or slightly pregnant.

Heh, Young also told him it didn't work that way, and it led to a mutiny when he tired. But now Young seems to be reversing course and becoming the dictator again. I won't argue as to the rightness or wrongness of it, though.

Wray would have staged a mutiny, regardless.
You call him dictator, I call it him asserting his dully authorized command of the ship.

No. Your analogy is still false, because you aren't giving me a chance to say yes or no. That's Young's role in all this; he was ultimately the person who had the yea/nay on the shuttle going or not.

Nothing will work for you because Rush had no authority to make the decision to stop Destiny. Just like you said, it set the whole episode in motion. And everybody knows how that worked out.

[Misfits]

Even if they rotate, you have a situation where your ships get inevitably closer to Destiny no matter how you slice it. Each time a seeder stops to dock, it has to be starting from the same position as Destiny. Even assuming it never stopped, it would take forever to get back to the front spot, because it has to catch up to the ships that are still going and still dropping gates. Meanwhile, the next ship in the chain stops, and it too gets closer to Destiny. The cycle repeats and repeats, and each time your ships would fall behind because they're busy. Depending on how long you have this cycle set for and however far back Destiny is, you end up getting to a point where your entire armada is stopped dead waiting for a dock.

To think that this has ever happened before, when it wouldn't need to with real-time data transfer between the ships, is ludicrous.

Actually, where did you get real-time data transfer between ships theory?
Just because Rush theorized this doesn't make it a fact.

The amount of data Destiny has would make sense if there was periodic dock-data transfer.

And what happens when the seeder ships, which have been running longer than ever intended, reach capacity? This is where your idea falls apart. If there's limited data storage, then the seeder ships would have to start trashing data just to keep going.

Seeder ship wouldn't need to keep much to get to the front of the line, start collecting data until the next time it docks with Destiny. And then the process starts all over.

This makes the most sense, doesn't it.

Just for once, try to take what we're suggesting as a given, then look at the situation and try to extrapolate.

[Misfits]

Unfortunately, I can't find the exact quote, but I'm pretty certain that Mallozzi said on his blog that Destiny shouldn't ever reach a seeder ship unless something was wrong with the seeder (in this case, probably the alien residents)...

So, this was a one-time event. too bad. Maybe they'll change their plan.

[morbosfist]

Actually, where did you get real-time data transfer between ships theory?
Just because Rush theorized this doesn't make it a fact.

It isn't theory, it's fact, as established back in "Life".

The amount of data Destiny has would make sense if there was periodic dock-data transfer.

Or if the seeders were sending it back in real-time.

Seeder ship wouldn't need to keep much to get to the front of the line, start collecting data until the next time it docks with Destiny. And then the process starts all over.

This makes the most sense, doesn't it.

Just for once, try to take what we're suggesting as a given, then look at the situation and try to extrapolate.

Even taking your situation as a given, it does not pan out. The Ancients sent this ship out intending to collect data on the worlds they pass. So if data storage were an issue, both the seeders and Destiny itself would run out because that data isn't going anywhere unless it gets trashed.

[Misfits]

And how are you supposed to retrieve all that data then? Fly back through every galaxy?

Why not? It would be fun.

Anyway, on a more serious note, iIf they have the means to connect to Destiny, then they also could connect to each galaxy, right?

All you would need to do is connect to a gate in the galaxy and you would get a data dump of the current info it has.

If Destiny had kept all the data it's ever traveled, then the Galaxy right after Pegasus would be million + years ago, right? Would you think there may have been some changes since it originally got the data? How accurate do you think Destiny's data would be?