Anyone else still not buying the LA as the major antagonist?

[Gollumpus]

I don't have a problem with the LA as the *current* major antagonist. They are the logical choices for a group to take advantage of the power vacuum left with the departure of the goa'uld. Other groups might be slower to take advantage of the situation.

However, if the SG franchise continues for years to come, I imagine that a different antagonist would have to be developed. Assuming a Milky Way based show, I suspect it would have to be someone we have already met. Candidates might be: replicators (yes, I'm tired of them as well); the Aschen might expand with the absence of the goa'uld; or the aliens from "Foothold" could be brought forward, assuming they were able to gain control of another Milky Way planet. They could also be used as a tie-in with SGU as these guys are supposed to be from a different galaxy.

Why would it be an known foe? The reason for this is that there has been a lot of exploration of the MW through the stargate. We would have already heard of a different race, even if only in rumours. Yes, the galaxy is a *BIG* place and we have only visited a small number of planets. This being said, I see what the SGC has done as being a scatter gun effect in exploration. They would have covered as much territory as possible: divide the galaxy in half; quarter it; then to eighths and so on. Assuming you meet an advanced race in any one of those sections who want share information you would find out about a new potential threat.

The goa'uld were the top dogs for thousands of years and they had already wiped out most of their potential threats. There wouldn't be a lot of options for a homegrown enemy except from a list similar to what we already know (this includes the "Foothold" aliens), and if they wanted an external threat then the "Foothold" aliens fill that bill.

regards,
G.

[D Toccs]

Cloaked cargo ship, naquadriah bomb...fine, sure. I'll accept that they're somehow able to source naquadriah (something that, presumably, only occurred "naturally" on Jonas' homeworld and only a handful of people in the galaxy know how to synthesize).

The Goa'uld created naquadariah, the LA had a base on a former Goa'uld world which had a naquadriah core. It seems perfectly logical that the LA would mine some of the naquadriah for weapons purposes while they were working on dialing Destiny.

But come on, the amount of infiltration in the SGC, really? Case in point, how do you get one of your own guys in uniform on the base? Dont they check ID badges when you come in, dont they check against the duty schedule to see if you exist? Wouldnt you eventually trigger some shibboleth to the other airman that, you know, you're not from Earth and you dont know what a McDonalds is?

I assume you're referring to "airman" Evans. He was not an infiltrator in the base, he was the pilot of the cargo ship. As Wray theorized the original plan was probably to land the the ship nearby or on the roof and then the pilot just walks away. The reason he had the uniform on was so that he wouldn't be noticed when he walked away, not so that he could infiltrate the building.

It just seems like it should take a lot more than one pilot with a crude bomb and a cloaked ship to take out SGC. If it was that easy, you gotta believe someone else woulda tried it by now

The only reason that the Goa'uld didn't try was because first they were afraid of the Asgard and didn't want to break the PPT, and then they were afraid of the Ancient weapons platform.

The Lucian Alliance seem perfectly credible as an enemy to me. Unlike the Goa'uld or the Ori the LA are not an evil empire bent on galactic domination that goes around enslaving people, they are just a large scale criminal organization and the SGC is combating them accordingly with undercover operatives and sabotaging kassa shipments. The LA/Earth war is a war that is fought with infiltration and subterfuge.

[the fifth man]

and i think the opposite the LA have put earth in a situation it can't easily deal with.

I totally agree. I think they have made the Lucian Alliance a very credible foe. I have no problem with them being the major problem for Earth at the moment.

[Replicator Todd]

I totally agree. I think they have made the Lucian Alliance a very credible foe. I have no problem with them being the major problem for Earth at the moment.

Indeed! I am loving TPTB for putting the Lucian Alliance into SGU. Its great to have a enemy from SG1 expand into a different part of the franchise.

[Dii-Reno]

I just have a hard time figuring out why the LA should care about earth or it's off world military bases. Wasn't the LA said to have control over a dozen or so worlds? In the grand scheme of things thats a drop in a very large bucket. With the estimated billions of planets in our galaxy, there is plenty of room to share between the LA, Jafa, and Earth.

Besides, using WMDs is a slippery slope. The LA knows we have the ability to put down bombs just as easily as they do. It's called mutually assured self destruction. If they cloak bomb us we cloak bomb them. After any attack we would lay planet busters on their worlds. Stargate command would have a detailed record of their installations.

It just seems like a week attempt by the writers to draw parallels between the LA and real world terrorism. They have to have a milky way antagonist, so they draw an example from the real world. The only problem is, the only reason we have trouble with terrorism is because we all live so close together. With 7 billion people living on the same rock, there is bound to be some trouble.

[thekillman]

have you forgotten that SG1 quite heavily messed with their affairs?

the LA can not freely exist because the IOA won't tolerate it's existence. it's seen as a crime group. Earth is a thorn in THEIR side, just as they are a thorn in ours.

the Lucian alliance wants to destroy us because we are THE most pain-in-the-ass race out there. the jaffa care but not THAT much since they have plenty of trouble. with major threats gone, our billion dollar intergalactic warships have to aim their APBW's at SOMETHING. with the LA infiltrating us and supressing people, they are our next enemy. and by doing that, the LA want us dead

[Analog]

I agree that the Lucian Alliance is a perfectly acceptable threat. Heck, even Old-Varro (whatever the bounty hunter's name was from SG-1) managed to catch Mitchell while taking out other bounty hunters in his way. And they've had a few years to progress since then.

I don't have a problem with the LA as the *current* major antagonist. They are the logical choices for a group to take advantage of the power vacuum left with the departure of the goa'uld. Other groups might be slower to take advantage of the situation.

However, if the SG franchise continues for years to come, I imagine that a different antagonist would have to be developed. Assuming a Milky Way based show, I suspect it would have to be someone we have already met. Candidates might be: replicators (yes, I'm tired of them as well); the Aschen might expand with the absence of the goa'uld; or the aliens from "Foothold" could be brought forward, assuming they were able to gain control of another Milky Way planet. They could also be used as a tie-in with SGU as these guys are supposed to be from a different galaxy....

I hadn't thought about the Aschen as a major antagonist... I absolutely love that idea! Now we just need a fourth SG series....


Rock on.

[Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble]

the Killman is right he speakth the truth.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

the LA make a great enemy, mostly because it's not some wacky aliens but because it's us.

One guy with a crude bomb couldn't accomplish much? Apparently you don't watch much news

[Petra]

Speaking as someone who despised the LA in SG-1, finding them too stupid and unbelievable not to cringe whenever they were on screen, let alone take them seriously, and who was VERY sceptic and wary when heard they were going to be a major Big Bad on SGU (you can check my old posts ) I must say I've been very pleasantly surprised by their portrayal in SGU. I buy it/them completely and happily.

This is what the LA should have been from the start. Had instead of the Natan The Idiot I could watch Kiva, my opinion of the last 2 seasons of SG-1 could have been very different. Alas, that was not the case. But you know what they say, right? Better late than never.

Granted, the tone of SG1/SGA was a little more gung-ho, but Cheyenne Mountain has stood up to the likes of the System Lords and Anubis. Yes, I know the Asgard were watching our butt at the time.

Did it? You do remember the circumstances in which the Earth/SGC/SG-1 were usually saved, don't you? Because when I think about it I remember how lucky SG-1 was and how much help we had from our allies. There aren't many situations where we stood up to the Goa'uld, the Replicators or the Ori completely on our own. In fact, all the episodes presenting AUs or ATs were all about how Earth failed without its allies, struggling to fight alone.

It still seems really weird that they're now so completely vulnerable to what's essentially the Space Yakuza.

Oh well, if Yakuza or Cosa Nostra or any other mafia are such negligible threats why exactly our law enforcements have been struggling with them for decades in vain? If they are so easy to defeat, why hasn't it happen yet? Why so many people are vulnerable to mafias' actions and have their lives destroyed by them?

But come on, the amount of infiltration in the SGC, really? Case in point, how do you get one of your own guys in uniform on the base? Dont they check ID badges when you come in, dont they check against the duty schedule to see if you exist? Wouldnt you eventually trigger some shibboleth to the other airman that, you know, you're not from Earth and you dont know what a McDonalds is?

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think the HWS (NOT the SGC as we haven't seen it yet on SGU) has been infiltrated? It was clearly said in the episode that the plan was to park the ship with the bomb and for the pilot to leave. Not a word about infiltration. As for the uniform, he could have gotten it from the same source as the files, or from such storage room, or from somebody dead after the explosion. There are dozens of possible explanations without bringing infiltration to the mix.

It just seems like it should take a lot more than one pilot with a crude bomb and a cloaked ship to take out SGC.

Which is why the SGC hasn't been taken out. The attack was on Homeworld Command. We don't know anything about what's going on with the SGC. Besides, that's why it was always underground - so the attacks like this one would have been totally ineffective.

I agree. The only small remark I remeber about lucian alliance is from SG1 episode, where they had the problem with the purple corn (kassa? or what was it...)

Actually, the episode you are thinkg of was in season 9. Apart from it there was a number of other episodes featuring the LA in both season 9 & 10, so it's not like they lacked screentime (unfortunately )

I think that is the reason where all your problems stem from regarding the Lucian Alliance. I also think a lot of it has to do with how they were portrayed in SG-1 which is an incompetent group of mercenaries. They did a good job trying to alter their image in season 1 of SGU, but I think a lot of people still think of them as what we saw in SG-1 and then find it hard to believe all that they've done to successfully infiltrate and attack Earth.

I think you are right.
The LA in SGU is truly a force to be reckon with and a formidable threat, but if one sees them as those bumbling idiots from SG-1 it's no wonder one can't take them seriously.

I know when I hear Lucian Alliance my first thought is of Katan their leader from SG-1 as opposed to the leader that helped LA get on destiny (Rhona Mirta forget the character's name).

It's Kiva

Personally, when I hear about the LA my first thought is: but which version? The LA from SG-1 or SGU? Logically I know they are supposed to be the same but I just can't see them as such.

The Lucian Alliance have the same problem, but the opposite. In SG-1 they were portrayed as a bit less ruthless than in SG-1 so in SGU they seem very different. I think another big problem is that they were introduced towards the end of SG-1 when the focus was more on the Ori and Baal so those villains always overshadowed the LA and they never really had a chance to take the limelight. Not like the Replicators, who had their shining moments. I think had SG-1 continued that the LA would have appeared more as a serious villain.

That being said, I actually like what SGU has done to the LA. It does make sense that you would have power groups move in and try to replace the Go'auld and SGU has done a good job IMO in presenting the LA as a formidable enemy to the Milky Way galaxy.

Why would the real life closing of NORAD mean the fictional moving of the SGC?

Why wouldn't it? At the time when it happened there was much talking and discussing here on the forum what would it mean for the fictional world of SG-1 so I can see why hedwig asked about it.

Then there's the whole Trust situation that vanished into the plot hole monster's gullet. You know, the Goa'uld who had infiltrated the American and Russian governments that nearly caused WW III? They didn't go anywhere. We didn't kill them all. Ba'al being executed didn't cause all the Goa'uld to magically disappear. And then there's Senator Kinsey. But all of that conveniently disappears without any resolution. That's weak writing.

Maybe we did. As that plot was never revisited you can think what you like and fill in the blanks. Personally, no matter how much I love Full Alert I choose to believe that all the Goa'ulds and Trust operatives were captured and gotten rid of and the subplot is finished once and for all. For good this time. It'd been going on for too long already, IMO.

Goa'uld!Kinsey may be saved to appear in some future SG-1 movie.

As for the Jaffa, I won't comment as I absolutely despise what was done to their portrayal in the last 2 seasons. The Jaffa from the first 8 seasons wouldn't make good Earth adversaries at all.

And all of that Ori technology left over after that conflict? Think about it; wars are messy affairs. Mines and other ordnance left over from conflicts that ended decades ago lay in wait today. You expect me to believe that the MASSIVE Ori invasion force that nearly converted all of our galaxy didn't leave stuff behind when they returned to their galaxy (assuming they returned to their galaxy; from how Ark of Truth played out and considering how subsequent Atlantis and Universe episodes played out, all that stuff magically vanished just like the Trust did).

I'm not sure what you are saying here. How would the junk left behind by the Ori fit into a show about Destiny? And besides, wouldn't it be useless? Wasn't all their advanced tech operated by the Priors using the Ori energy? I thought that with the Ori and the Priors gone their technology no longer works.

Also, there would be a small matter of further alienating/dividing fandom. Not everyone liked the last 2 seasons of SG-1. In fact I know plenty of folks who pretend that seasons 9&10 never happened and they wouldn't be thrilled with their leftovers showing up in a completely new show.

They haven't done a very good job of establishing motive. The Goa'uld and Ori wanted to be worshipped. That's a very different and more interesting motive than just "power" which is bland and generic.

Hmm, I'll give you that. I know why the LA wanted to board the Destiny but the reasons for attacking Earth seem to be pretty vague. Then again, my guess would be that it's all somehow explained in and connected with the 3rd SG-1 movie that was supposed to be out by now.

What are you on about? When was it established that the SGC closed shop? I thought the whole purpose of "Unending" was to show us that while SG-1 is over, they're still out there.

I think what hedwig meant to say (feel free to correct me hon) wasn't that the SGC was closed permanently or the teams ceased to go through the Gate but rather that with the closure of the Cheyenne Mountain in RL it's possible that the fictional SGC was moved somewhere else too.

It just seems like a week attempt by the writers to draw parallels between the LA and real world terrorism. They have to have a milky way antagonist, so they draw an example from the real world. The only problem is, the only reason we have trouble with terrorism is because we all live so close together. With 7 billion people living on the same rock, there is bound to be some trouble.

Huh? And how is it different from drawing parallels between the Ori and the crusades/expansion of islam (or christianity, depends how you interpret it)? May I remind you that the Ori arrived from the other galaxy so they had in fact even more space to expand on without attacking us?

Also, terrorist themes have always been present in Stargate. Remember Ree'tou terrorist commandos in season 2 or Jaffa sent on suicide missions with bombs strapped to their chests in season 5? Why was it ok for SG-1 but suddenly it's not ok for SGU?

[Dii-Reno]

Huh? And how is it different from drawing parallels between the Ori and the crusades/expansion of islam (or christianity, depends how you interpret it)? May I remind you that the Ori arrived from the other galaxy so they had in fact even more space to expand on without attacking us?

Also, terrorist themes have always been present in Stargate. Remember Ree'tou terrorist commandos in season 2 or Jaffa sent on suicide missions with bombs strapped to their chests in season 5? Why was it ok for SG-1 but suddenly it's not ok for SGU?

The ori are religious crusaders. Crusaders don't care about distance or the amount of resources they pour into something. The same can be said for the gould. The wraith were driven by their need to feed. The Ree'tou were xenophobes who would attack anyone they ran into. That is hardly terrorism.

The LA on the other hand is a profit driven organization. Why should they give a **** about some planet on the other side of the galaxy. Even if SG1 started to disrupt their supply lines all they would do is set up better security to ensure production wasn't slowed. Going out of their way to attack earth isn't profitable. All it would do is piss us off and guarantee that we paid more attention to their business.

[ultimategurion]

Why wouldn't it? At the time when it happened there was much talking and discussing here on the forum what would it mean for the fictional world of SG-1 so I can see why hedwig asked about it.

That's all well and good, but confusing fan speculation with reality doesn't make it so. Until an episode or a film set in the SG-1/Atlantis/Universe continuity explicitly states or shows that the SGC has been moved to a different location, such speculation holds no water.

Maybe we did. As that plot was never revisited you can think what you like and fill in the blanks. Personally, no matter how much I love Full Alert I choose to believe that all the Goa'ulds and Trust operatives were captured and gotten rid of and the subplot is finished once and for all. For good this time. It'd been going on for too long already, IMO.

Too bad there isn't a single episode or film to support this fan speculation. No, the sub-plot was never resolved; it was simply dropped. One minute the trust are manipulating world governments and businesses and planting a bomb on Atlantis, and the next moment the writers conveniently drop the whole affair because they want to write other stories. As a writer, I can understand growing tired of a story you've been working on for a long time, but if you've invested several seasons of your franchise into this plot only to abruptly drop it, you're a lazy writer.

Goa'uld!Kinsey may be saved to appear in some future SG-1 movie.

Don't hold your breath for any Stargate movie any time soon.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. How would the junk left behind by the Ori fit into a show about Destiny?

Superior technology that can easily cripple Earth ships and put Goa'uld technology to shame... Why would the Lucian Alliance ever want that?

And besides, wouldn't it be useless? Wasn't all their advanced tech operated by the Priors using the Ori energy? I thought that with the Ori and the Priors gone their technology no longer works.

Well, the priors were the only people who could use their staffs and use the control chairs in the ships because they were manipulated by the Ori to have the ancient gene. But the technology the Ori army used was built and operated by the army. The Ori themselves are killed by the san gral, yet their army still operates their ships, guns, the Supergate, etc.

Also, there would be a small matter of further alienating/dividing fandom. Not everyone liked the last 2 seasons of SG-1. In fact I know plenty of folks who pretend that seasons 9&10 never happened and they wouldn't be thrilled with their leftovers showing up in a completely new show.

Funny thing you should mention the left overs of seasons 9 and 10. That's kind of where the Lucian Aliance came from.

[thekillman]

destiny = ancient tech
ori = distantly ancient tech.

i can see the connection. quite a lot of major ancient tech is taken by earth, surely the LA would want some of it. even if it was just to deny earth the tech

[hedwig]

What are you on about? When was it established that the SGC closed shop? I thought the whole purpose of "Unending" was to show us that while SG-1 is over, they're still out there.

This is from the transcript of "Air, p. 1":

CARTER: Twelve. Eighty-plus M.I.A. The bunker shielding technology prevented us from beaming out anyone inside. How many people made it through the Gate to Earth?

O'NEILL: None.

CARTER: None?! Our sensors indicated that the Stargate was active for a full six minutes before the core went critical.

O'NEILL: Well, they didn't come through here.

(Carter looks at him, bewildered.)

CARTER: Then where'd they go?

After this episode aired, there was a lot of speculation on this forum about the bolded bit. While it could be taken to mean the SGC, there was a lot of discussion about the notion of the gate apparently having been moved closer to Washington, D.C., which would make Jack's comment a bit more understandable for some people. And since Walter was seen in some of the earlier episodes at the Pentagon, working with Jack, it was thought that if Walter was no longer at the SGC (since he had been there the previous 10 years - including the two or so after Jack left for the Pentagon), then maybe the gate wasn't either. And, yes, I understand that just because Walter left the SGC, it doesn't follow that the gate would as well. However, that was the gist of some of the discussion here on Gateworld, and there was speculation as to just where the gate might have been moved. And if it had been moved, then the SGC would likely have been shut down as well. It doesn't have to make sense to everyone, since pretty much everyone has their own ideas about what did or did not happen.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think the HWS (NOT the SGC as we haven't seen it yet on SGU) has been infiltrated? It was clearly said in the episode that the plan was to park the ship with the bomb and for the pilot to leave. Not a word about infiltration. As for the uniform, he could have gotten it from the same source as the files, or from such storage room, or from somebody dead after the explosion. There are dozens of possible explanations without bringing infiltration to the mix.

Which is why the SGC hasn't been taken out. The attack was on Homeworld Command. We don't know anything about what's going on with the SGC. Besides, that's why it was always underground - so the attacks like this one would have been totally ineffective.

Makes sense to me. I'm not sure how big this bomb was supposed to be (don't have Syfy anymore, so haven't watched the episode yet), but it would have to be pretty big to get as deep at 19+ levels to damage the SGC.

Why wouldn't it? At the time when it happened there was much talking and discussing here on the forum what would it mean for the fictional world of SG-1 so I can see why hedwig asked about it.

I think what hedwig meant to say (feel free to correct me hon) wasn't that the SGC was closed permanently or the teams ceased to go through the Gate but rather that with the closure of the Cheyenne Mountain in RL it's possible that the fictional SGC was moved somewhere else too.

double

[Greenfire32]

This is from the transcript of "Air, p. 1":
After this episode aired, there was a lot of speculation on this forum about the bolded bit. While it could be taken to mean the SGC, there was a lot of discussion about the notion of the gate apparently having been moved closer to Washington, D.C.

Seriously? All that means is that they didn't gate to Earth.

SGC is still there until someone actually says it isn't.