Ethically charged events from "Aftermath"

[KEK]

I'm think you're underestimating what sort of state a neck snap like that would leave him in, also, his collar wasn't that high.

[morbosfist]

He was wearing a high-collared jacket. Also, they were running out of the time. The first thing TJ would do would not to pull back the collar to check for neck injuries.

She wouldn't need to. You snap someone's neck, the results are going to be immediate and obvious.

[Lahela]

I think Young did the right thing. I don't like the way he did it (a bullet would have been kinder - yes, I know Riley effectively told him not to, then put his hands behind his back so he couldn't struggle, but Young should have done it anyway), but I'm glad he did it.

[spinny magee]

For this neck snapping thing, i'm pretty sure TJ would have noticed that when she went back to the shuttle

[Shadow_7]

With a bullet, there's no way for the faith aliens to magically heal him. And increase the collective. Same with a snapped neck. It might be interesting if the entire crew has super Chloe abilities because of the venom or some other (mis)-fortune.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Um you did watch SGA's "Rising" didn't you? Except Sheppard actually shot Sumner to kill him and end his suffering.

Yeah, but in Rising we just see Sheppard shoot Sumner, bang, he’s dead. He doesn’t have to sit there for a good minute or so with his hand over Sumner's mouth staring him in the eyes.

With a bullet, there's no way for the faith aliens to magically heal him. And increase the collective. Same with a snapped neck. It might be interesting if the entire crew has super Chloe abilities because of the venom or some other (mis)-fortune.

Err, the super duper aliens who can build star systems and perhaps transport people across galaxies? How would it be unbelievable for them not to be able to heal a bullet wound? Not that I think Riley will come back it would cheapen his death, which was set up to be as horrible as possible, but frankly when we're talking godlike aliens, I think it's safe to say they could bring people back from the dead however they died. I mean if the Goa'uld could do it then I’m pretty sure it’s not a problem for them.

[Mitchell82]

In terms of medical ethics I would agree with Young. Riley was going to die regardless and one of the highest part of medical ethics is that the patient chooses what he/she does with his/her body first. To that regard if Riley is to die its ethical to chose his wishes above your own.

As for Rush I find him responsible negligent homicide. His negligence of doing his job endangered everyone on the shuttle and killed Riley.

Finally an amputation is a lot more complex job. You just can't take a saw and cut off the leg. You have to very precise where you cut to prevent things like blood loss and nerve damange

Very well put. Also an amputation is very dangerous even in the best circumstances. Last seasons finale of House shows just how dangerous it is .

[Aurora24]

I'm wondering who Riley though was going to blame Young for taking his life. Given the options of slowly dying alone on the shuttle, or dying relatively painlessly with the others still there, I would probably have made the same decision, only I'd ask to be shot because it would be over quickly. TJ and the others had to know that realistically there was no way that Riley was going to survive. I was kind of horrified when I watched Young kill him, but Young did what Riley wanted and killing him quickly was the most merciful thing that could be done under the circumstances. I don't see how anyone could condemn him for doing it.

As for Rush's involvement, sending the shuttle down was necessary because of the need for food and water, however given that Rush can now apparently control when the ship jumps in and out of FTL I think he should have prevented the ship from jumping and then made up some excuse to explain why they weren't moving. That way they could actually look for some food and water, as well as potentially having time to help Riley. I was actually hoping that they would bring some medical equipment and possibly get Koz to come and help TJ. I know Young doesn't trust the LA, but in a situation like that it would have made sense to bring along the only other person on the ship with medical training to help out. I'm not sure if that would have been enough to save Riley, but we'll never know because they didn't have the time to attempt to save him. As much as I like Rush I don't think he has the right to arbitrarily decided where the ship is going to go. Although I agree that Young is emotionally unstable (and we saw a great example of that when he attacked that LA soldier), Rush deciding that only he can control Destiny has proven to put the crew in equal danger. Rush needs to either come clean about what he's doing with the ship, although I'm sure he's going to be even more reluctant than before given that everyone will most likely hold him responsible for Riley's death.

[Mitchell82]

For this neck snapping thing, i'm pretty sure TJ would have noticed that when she went back to the shuttle

He didn't snap his neck he suffocated him.

[the fifth man]

Personally, I think Young honored the final wish of his dying officer. You could tell it wasn't easy on Young at all. I can't imagine how that will weigh on him.

[morbosfist]

I'm wondering who Riley though was going to blame Young for taking his life. Given the options of slowly dying alone on the shuttle, or dying relatively painlessly with the others still there, I would probably have made the same decision, only I'd ask to be shot because it would be over quickly. TJ and the others had to know that realistically there was no way that Riley was going to survive. I was kind of horrified when I watched Young kill him, but Young did what Riley wanted and killing him quickly was the most merciful thing that could be done under the circumstances. I don't see how anyone could condemn him for doing it.

Think of it this way. If Young had shot Riley on request or let him shoot himself, there would always be that little nagging thought of "maybe we could have saved him", regardless of the logic. By letting Riley pass on quietly, people don't ask themselves that. They accept that there was nothing to be done, and that Riley just didn't make it. They move on to mourning, instead of blaming. Riley knew this, and he wanted what was best for the crew.

As for Rush's involvement, sending the shuttle down was necessary because of the need for food and water, however given that Rush can now apparently control when the ship jumps in and out of FTL I think he should have prevented the ship from jumping and then made up some excuse to explain why they weren't moving. That way they could actually look for some food and water, as well as potentially having time to help Riley. I was actually hoping that they would bring some medical equipment and possibly get Koz to come and help TJ. I know Young doesn't trust the LA, but in a situation like that it would have made sense to bring along the only other person on the ship with medical training to help out. I'm not sure if that would have been enough to save Riley, but we'll never know because they didn't have the time to attempt to save him. As much as I like Rush I don't think he has the right to arbitrarily decided where the ship is going to go. Although I agree that Young is emotionally unstable (and we saw a great example of that when he attacked that LA soldier), Rush deciding that only he can control Destiny has proven to put the crew in equal danger. Rush needs to either come clean about what he's doing with the ship, although I'm sure he's going to be even more reluctant than before given that everyone will most likely hold him responsible for Riley's death.

You've missed a key point here. Their proximity to the planet prevented the gate from establishing a connection, regardless of the operational status of the planetary gate. They had to jump. It was unavoidable. Rush had hoped that the gate could be repaired while the shuttle was on the planet. They'd come back with a small amount of supplies, the ship would jump, then he'd stop it again later for a much longer and easier supply run.

Things didn't play out that way. The shuttle crashed, so they needed to jump so the gate could be used. By the time the ship could stop again and help, Riley was as good as gone. There was no helping.

He didn't snap his neck he suffocated him.

Read the rest of the discussion. No one is trying to claim otherwise.

[puddlejumper747]

...well alright, no one else has said it yet, so I will.

Young did not do the right thing; ethically, it was murder. That being said, there were various mitigating circumstances which tend to decrease Young's culpability... but they do not (and cannot) eliminate his guilt entirely. In the final scenario, Young was the immediate cause of Riley's death... and that's the problem. Morally acceptable options would have been to let Riley die of natural causes (provide anything you want to alleviate the suffering, but don't kill him), or else go ahead and pull him out from under the wreckage and do everything in your power to stop the bleeding, even if you have every reason to believe that you will not succeed, and that he will have bled out in seconds: same end result, no unethical means (direct intentional killing) used to attain that end.

It's a fine distinction, and I'm certain that most (if not all) of you here will disagree... but that's my position. Murder is never an ethical means of attaining a good end, regardless of whether or not the patient asks for it. Mitigating factors might significantly decrease the subjective guilt of the parties involved, but objectively it was the wrong decision, and could never have been otherwise.

I may or may not check back to see responses to this post... not sure I honestly have the time and/or motivation to engage in yet another ethical debate a-la-"Rising, Part 2". Yes, I held the same unpopular position then as I do now.

[morbosfist]

Without going in too deep, I can only say that I respect the opinion, but wonder how long it would hold up in the absence of all the wonderful ways our society has to alleviate suffering.

[Shadow_7]

And the warden in charge of death row gets brought up on murder charges all the time. NOT. Or our soldiers abroad killing all those combatants. It's a line, and it's an act. But every time you eat a salad, you killed a plant. How many innocent bugs are splatted on your windshield? What? Did I just see you swat a mosquito? What exactly do you intend to do with those chickens in your yard?

We just tend to think a little more about human life most of the time. Bear in mind that part of the training for the military is to think less of human life. Completion of the mission is primary, and if you happen to live in the process of doing so, good for you. At a minimum Rileys reduced capacities (no legs, constant need for pain management, negative impact on troop morale, ...) would have compromised the mission.

Seven hours on the clock when the shuttle left. One hour trip. So six hours before Destiny went into FTL. Another four hours until it came out of FTL and the gate could be used, if it was not burried. He wasn't exactly loosing a foot by the looks of things. He was pinned from the testicles down. So even IF IF IF, odds of surviving were very very very low.

[Lahela]

ethically, it was murder.

No, legally, is was murder, in countries that do not allow euthanasia. The ethics is the point of debate.