Wray needs to shut up, and Scott needs to man up

[icsteffi]

When someone is stuffing you in a room and venting the atmosphere, you'll be begging for someone like Wray to stand up for your rights. The measure of a man's principles, is whether he'll apply them to friend and foe alike. Everyone has and deserves rights, and you just don't go torturing someone or ignoring their rights whenever you feel like it.

This is very relevant, because how would you like to be kidnapped in the dead of night and waterboarded continuously while being screamed at the answer the questions. You'd probably be asking for a lawyer, and somewhere else, there would be a Wray-like person screaming that you have rights. Wray is right; they needed to bring her in. The military has to trust the civilians, otherwise this won't work.

As for Scott, yeah, he's an idiot. You respect the chain of command, and going behind Young's back is not cool.

Like how she stood up for Young's rights in Justice?? .....She is not screaming because its the right thing to do, she's screaming because it is the selfish thing to do. (Did fandom here ever decide on whether or not she knew that Rush framed Young before the whole trial?)

She'll do anything for power on that ship. I'm not saying I dislike her, or she's evil. Its just that she's not screaming because she thinks Telford has rights.

And Scott is kind of an idiot, but I'm glad that Wray was brought in, whatever the impetus.

[Joachim]

As for Scott, I question him as 2IC. He's a nice bloke trying to do the right thing. But this is way Greer and James are better soldiers. They don't have this excessive need like Scott to be the good guy. Just the good soldier.

This is exactly what makes Scott great. A "soldier", if it is to be contrasted with a "person", is a mindless machine to be bent to the whims of others - irrelevant to morality as a whole, they are simply an extension of a political body; you yourself hinted towards this fact by differentiating a good person with a good soldier. We do not want good soldiers - we want good people. If they happen to be a soldier as well, fine; if not, so be it.

[Avenger]

As for Scott, I question him as 2IC. He's a nice bloke trying to do the right thing. But this is way Greer and James are better soldiers. They don't have this excessive need like Scott to be the good guy. Just the good soldier.

He's the second highest ranking officer on the ship. That's the way it works.

[Lahela]

Suspected Espionage security breach = military manner, ie: Wray has no business.

But Young did not tell her it was a suspected security breach. Like it or not, the civilians on Destiny do have a representative who is looking out for their best interests and as such, has a right to know when things might impact on them. According to military protocol and to the entirely logical reasoning that the information should be limited to a need to know basis, Young couldn't tell her precisely what was going on. But he hedged, simply telling her to trust him, instead of pointing out the nature of the situation and therefore giving her a reason to trust him. He has proven himself to be a liar in the past and she made an effort to remind him that that history set a precedent, so his telling her to trust him and expecting her to just drop it is, well, the word "stupid" springs to mind, although "disrespectful" and "arrogant" are probably closer to the mark.

[Tuvok]

How is Scott thinking for himself??? he got bullied around by Wray nothing more, that just showed hes spinless. Scott seems to have a "nice guy" complex and always tried to do what others want him to because he wants them to like him.

That's my problem with Scott then and there. Not that he's inexperienced. But he want's to be the good guy all the time. On Faith, he ditched his duty to be the good guy and stay behind with the Civies. He is not there to be the nice guy , or the good guy. He is there to be the soldier who does the hard things to keep them alive. That is why to me James and Greer would make better 2ics

[Lt. Jeffer]

That is why to me James and Greer would make better 2ics

in some kind it would be very ironic when young would upgrade James and she will become higher in the rank than scott and would be his supperior officer

[PG15]

Well, this thread is certainly eye opening. It seems a lot of you wouldn't break a sweat living under a military dictatorship...as long as you were part of the military.

I suppose the writers are partially to blame for this. The IOA has been portrayed as incompetent douchebags and antagonists to our heroes for so long that even the idea of civillian and international oversight being a very very good idea seems to have been forgotten or dismissed.

I absolutely agree with what Wray's doing here. It shouldn't take an important civillian to question the actions of the military; they serve the country, and thus, the rest of us. We have every right to question them if we wish to. Even more so, I respect her for having the courage to stand up to the guys with the guns and demand that they give her answers. She said "whatever it is, we'll all have to live with it" and it's exactly right. This ain't normal circumstances where the warzone and the happy home life are separated by thousands of miles; if something is going to happen to Destiny it will affect all of them.

Some have said that they shouldn't have told Wray because she could be another spy - but as Telford showed, you don't have to be a civillian to be a spy.

That said, I'm not saying Young SHOULD tell Wray what was happening; this is getting to the very grey area of freedom of information. Still, IMHO Wray was right in at least demanding the info.

It might have been best to just tell everyone everything and then stop the usage of the stones to disallow any potential spies from going back and reporting on the situation.

Meanwhile, Scott needs to "man up"? Scott, the guy who just disobeyed his commanding officer to do what he believed to be right, needs to "man up"? The guy who has done this stuff from the beginning when he refused to help Young kill himself, needs to "man up"? Well gee, I really hope I will need to "man up" like he apparently does when I come upon the choice between what is good for me, and what is right.

Then again, I'm not in the military and I never will be, so I'm biased.

[Arwis]

I think Wray did what she was supposed to and I really liked her in this episode. However Scot... he already was 'weak' in my eyes but since this episode he's officially a pussy boy.

[Vapor]

... Skipping over the mildly offensive statement about Scott, I'd just like to say that I don't have a problem with what either of the characters did in this episode.

Whether Wray is "qualified" or not, she is all the civilians have got in the way of fair representation, so she gets the unenviable job of getting in people's faces and making sure things are being handled "correctly." It's not like there's anyone else that's going to do it. They're on their own, in a unique situation, and she's completely within her rights to ask these questions and expect at least a simple answer, if not a very detailed one. Dead silence from Young is only going to inflate her need to seek an explanation.

Scott wants to make sure the proper protocol is being observed, and in this instance, I do not believe that he was merely getting bullied into it. He was merely reminded of what his own conscience was clearly already telling him throughout the whole situation. You can read it on his face and hear it with every moment of questioning he has of Young's orders. I don't see his concerns as evidence of him being a "wimp" or any of the other negative descriptives that have been assigned him by some people here.

[wargrafix]

I find it really disturbing how much disrespect civilian administrations tend to get here. Wray had a right to know. she is IOA. Oversight people. Thats what the military needs. They run around gung ho, without using any brain matter. Thats in the show and in real life.

She is not a HR manager. That was the dumbest suggestion ever. No, no, stupid is more like it.

Scott finally used some sense. Telling her at least gave some context for the situation.

[Tuvok]

I don't think Scott wants people to like per se, I think he's growing up and losing that hero worship for Young. I think he's growing a spine instead of being such a yes man.

I see Greer more as having hero worship then Scott. I have never seen Scott have any sort of hero worship vibes regarding Young..I have seen him question orders repeatedly. And decide to stay on the planet in ''Faith'' because there where ''meant'' too. But no hero worship on his part.

[pipi]

In Scott's defence, I don't recall a specific order to not tell anyone about the interrogation. So he was justified to include Wray into the inner circle and he even explained his decision to Young when questioned about it. I don't recall Scott telling Young he was a pussy, he actually had a valid reason.

Not to mention that some goodwill can earn you a lot of respect from the crew instead of being branded a pussy.

[fmbchris]

I agree. Very annoying! The way they handled Wray was poor. Scott should have let Greer deal with her. She would behave better because of her fear of him. Brody (the drinker) is the stand up guy in this episode because he followed Youngs order to vent the air in Telfords room. I didn't like the wishy washy way the others (Eli ex) acted when asked to do something.

[bobshort]

WRAY DOSN'T TRUSTED COL YOUNG. This is the one problem with wray she think's to much and wants to be in charge but rush and young are leads one cilivain one militry. she reports to them they don't report to her. ME i would kill her off.

Scott. well at the start of the season i through he was a good leader? I WAS WRONG. He needs five-ten more years of combat to be questing young on his actions. (ME) demote him and pomote Greer.
Trust is the big problem on destiny

[fmbchris]

Forgetting that Ray led a mutiny against Young? It would be hard to trust.. He clearly didn’t trust Rush