Torture

[DigiFluid]

Gitmo was a black ops operation?!

She said "most often", not "100% of the time without fail."

Reading comprehension ftw

[s09119]

The reason it's wrong is for this - The intel will likely to prove false. My father's not a man to sacrifice his integrity for anything. I once held your belief though, but I'm not military. But I bet that some psycho terrorist who wants to kill people would give up false information. He might send everyone to the Statue of Liberty when the Empire State Building is rigged to blow. He not only stopped the torture but still accomplishes his ultimate plan. Torture information is unreliable.

I'll use a stargate example. Think of the replicators. How many times have O'Neill, Sheppard, and gang tricked the replicators. They gave false information during "torture" and beat the replicators.

Teyla used this technique with the Wraith Queen. The Queen thought she was extracting plans out of Teyla's mind, but it turned out she walked into a trap.

Any interrogation, torture or not, could reveal false intelligence. But when you're out of options, what else are you going to do? Sit there and ask really nicely when you have minutes before countless civilians die? I'm not saying it's right, moral, or something we should be doing left and right, but there are circumstances where you have to do whatever is necessary.

[s09119]

She said "most often", not "100% of the time without fail."

Reading comprehension ftw

The point is that "civilized" nations sometimes openly sanction "uncivilized" things for the greater good.

Reading comprehension ftw

[DigiFluid]

Any interrogation, torture or not, could reveal false intelligence. But when you're out of options, what else are you going to do? Sit there and ask really nicely when you have minutes before countless civilians die? I'm not saying it's right, moral, or something we should be doing left and right, but there are circumstances where you have to do whatever is necessary.

It's well-documented that torture produces unreliable information. So what you're out of options? You're just going to torture for s**ts and giggles?

[Krazeh]

She said "most often", not "100% of the time without fail."

Reading comprehension ftw

She also said "It would never be a military practice". That sounds like quite a strong view that the US Military would never torture people.

[s09119]

It's well-documented that torture produces unreliable information. So what you're out of options? You're just going to torture for s**ts and giggles?

Prove to me that torture always, 100% of the time, gives unreliable information and we'll end this right here. But if you can't your entire argument falls apart.

[Krazeh]

It's well-documented that torture produces unreliable information. So what you're out of options? You're just going to torture for s**ts and giggles?

So the correct thing to do is just give up and let those people die instead of taking the chance that you might obtain some useful information?

[Demerzel]

I do not think that is the case. It would never be a military practice. It's black ops CIA that are most often behind these things. Anyone who assumes this is what goes on in the US Military obviously does not know anyone in the US military. Please get your facts straight.

Your father being a Commander unfortunately doesn't mean that you automatically know everything that goes on among the millions of soldiers in the US military. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of officers are of your father's opinion. Yet there are those that are not. This isn't a game. This is war. Our enemies don't care about our laws, or the lives they take to make their points. If you were a soldier, defending your country, and you knew that the guy sitting in front of you knew how to prevent a bomb from killing thousands of people, including your family, I'd be curious to see what you'd do, after he spits in your face and laughs at you as if those lives meant nothing at all.

Torture happened, and happens. Doesn't make it right, but to believe that the US military doesn't practice it is to be downright naive. I bet there are factions/minorities in every government on earth that are pro-torture, but keep it quiet.

[Alexandria7]

I'm wondering if we live in the same world. I suppose you are an idealist.

LOL - an idealist? Nah. I just accumulate information wherever I hear it. I'm not denying that torture is used in many places. It does. I don't think that the US military would readily do it without some sort of higher authority authorizing it.

[EllieVee]

No, what i'd like to see is people accept the simple truth that morality is a relative concept. The whole point of the question is to get people to examine whether they could view the killing of one person, which is normally considered to be an immoral act, to be the correct course of action when it would save 1 or more other people. In most cases it's rhetorical anyway as people, for the most part, have accepted that there are times when killing people is the correct course of action to take, e.g. in times of war or police officer's protecting innocent people.

You don't have moral absolutes? The bit I've bolded is completely unprovable, by the way.

However, if you don't know what you'd do in the situation I posed how is it you know what you'd to in every situation where torture was a possibility? Why is it that the consideration of taking a human life to save others is apparently an impossibility to answer before you're in a situation where you'd need to make that decision but the consideration of torture to save others is something you can immediately give an answer to?

I've said that torture is wrong. Have I said I wouldn't torture someone? I don't think I have? I think I've said I wouldn't know what I'd do in that situation until faced with that situation, have I not? I don't have a difference stance if it's killing someone.

[DigiFluid]

Prove to me that torture always, 100% of the time, gives unreliable information and we'll end this right here. But if you can't your entire argument falls apart.

rofl no it doesn't. Torture is both wrong and unreliable. These are facts.

It always astonishes me that there are people willing to argue in favour of it. All this "would you torture to save this" nonsense is a ludicrous strawman argument. Would you violently rape a woman to save your mother's life? Would you torture a child to death to save your own? It's ridiculous. There's absolutely no justification for torture, ever.

[JustAnotherVoice]

She also said "It would never be a military practice". That sounds like quite a strong view that the US Military would never torture people.

The argument I was pointing out.

The point is that "civilized" nations sometimes openly sanction "uncivilized" things for the greater good.

Reading comprehension ftw

She said "most often", not "100% of the time without fail."

Reading comprehension ftw

Back to the original morality and numbers argument.

[Devilshock]

First of all Young never tortured to gain information. Telford started the fight and got beat down by Greer. Young has to do everything he can to protect Earth and the Destiny. We dont know if Telford gave more than the Icarus Base details. Torture should never be used and by the way Telford would be dead if he goes back into is body any way.

[DigiFluid]

First of all Young never tortured to gain information.

Threat of suffocation is torture both physical and mental.

[s09119]

rofl no it doesn't. Torture is both wrong and unreliable. These are facts.

It always astonishes me that there are people willing to argue in favour of it. All this "would you torture to save this" nonsense is a ludicrous strawman argument. Would you violently rape a woman to save your mother's life? Would you torture a child to death to save your own? It's ridiculous. There's absolutely no justification for torture, ever.

...so you're insisting that torture has never, in all of history, yielded useful intelligence? Okay, sure, let's go with that.

And yes, if it meant saving innocent lives, I would do immoral things. Compromising my own sense of morality or innocence to prevent others from a horrible fate is something I could live with, however painful it may be.