The Greater Good

[ZGoten]

There is no right or wrong, just different opinions.

[RJLCyberPunk]

There is no right or wrong, just different opinions.

Is there a Nihilists convention on this board that I'm unaware off?

[s09119]

Is there a Nihilists convention on this board that I'm unaware off?

Or maybe it's just common sense. Everything is a shade of grey, after all. Moral absolutes rarely, if ever, exist, and every law ever made has been broken at least once in the name of the greater good.

[pipi]

At least we can be thankful that venting the atmosphere was more humane and sci-fi than say pulling out his finger nails. I can think of much worst.

[RJLCyberPunk]

Or maybe it's just common sense. Everything is a shade of grey, after all. Moral absolutes rarely, if ever, exist, and every law ever made has been broken at least once in the name of the greater good.

Says who you? Think about what you are saying for a minute or 2, because if that were the case then you can say that Hitler was justified in what he did, after all he did believe it was for the greater good of the motherland.

[s09119]

Says who you? Think about what you are saying for a minute or 2, because if that were the case then you can say that Hitler was justified in what he did, after all he did believe it was for the greater good of the motherland.

Actually, most historians agree that Hitler was justified in getting revenge on the other European powers for the humiliating and largely unwarranted punishments they heaped on Germany after World War I. But that's besides the point; obviously mass murdering millions of innocent people is wrong in a modern, civilized society. You're side-stepping the fact, however, that morality is not an absolute, and that there has always been a reason to break any code or law.

[RJLCyberPunk]

Actually, most historians agree that Hitler was justified in getting revenge on the other European powers for the humiliating and largely unwarranted punishments they heaped on Germany after World War I. But that's besides the point; obviously mass murdering millions of innocent people is wrong in a modern, civilized society. You're side-stepping the fact, however, that morality is not an absolute, and that there has always been a reason to break any code or law.

It may not be an absolute but it definitely sets limits to what can and cannot be done regardless. It can be bent somewhat but again you are defending the position that there is no right or wrong. And therefore no moral superiority or high ground of any kind exists and therefore there is no difference between a doctor finding the cure for cancer and a mass murderer if we are to go by that logic.

[Blackhole]

Obviously, torture is a despicable act which should not be committed for any frivolous reasons. However, there is the extremely rare case in which a situation is grave enough, in which innocent lives are imminently placed in danger, when the authorization of limited torture techniques must be considered. In order to preserve innocent life that would be extinguished through no fault of its own by an unreasonable enemy in a "ticking time bomb" scenario.

I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested that torture is a good thing. Most people have made it abundantly clear that it is a horrible thing that should almost never be used for any reason. But there is still that 2% of the time where our unwillingness to make the hard decision and take action will cost the lives of a great number of innocent people, for the sake of an ideal.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to sleep well at night if I had the chance to save dozens of people who had their whole lives ahead of them because I chose not to compromise the comfort of a single individual whom I knew beyond reasonable doubt had heinous criminal intent against us all. I wouldn't be thrilled to do it by any means, and the memory of it would haunt me for the rest of my life, but the consequences of my inaction would be so much worse.

As far as Young's personal motives in this particular scenario go? I honestly don't think this has anything to do with revenge. We can't overlook the fact that he has had a history with Telford, and that complicates things. But as was said in the episode countless times, he knows that Telford has changed from the man he used to be. Considering what their previous encounters were like, Young showed a fair deal of restraint throughout the episode, up until the end. His intent was not to get back at Telford, but to get the information he needed, just as he and Rush both agreed they would, and Jack sanctioned. I saw none of the pleasure in Young's demeanor that the OP seems to suggest he was feeling in those final moments. I saw someone determined to get his point across as sincerely as possible. Even if it was just a bluff- Telford needed to "know" that he wasn't going to stop until he got what he needed to protect his people (which can include both the Destiny crew and Earth, btw).

In my view, Young did what he had to do. What few people could have done. It's not pleasant at all. It's not what most of us would have preferred. And in an ideal situation, it most definitely should not have been Young himself as the guy that carried it out, given his history with the detainee. But it had to be done nonetheless.

The only torture that Telford has been subjected to is the evacuation of the compartment’s air and at this point we don’t know what is going to happen to Telford in Rush’s body. If Telford cracks and gives the information Young is looking for and the door is opened and air is returned, then all damage done would be psychological. It would be unlikely any lasting damage i.e., arising from the O2 deprivation would occur. Given that RC is the primary character of the show it isn’t likely he is going to die or suffer any lasting damage and since there has been an exchange of consciousness, then Rush is not likely to remember what was done to his body either.

Imo the seriousness of the crime will depend on what is yet to happen. I am not saying that Young’s evacuation of the room is not wrong, just that it will be far worse if Rush’s body suffers any lasting damage or dies. If his bluff is successful in scaring Telford into divulging the location of the LA base this intell along with the confirmation that Telford is the mole and was responsible for the deaths of the 30 plus people, will more than justify Young’s actions in my mind. Personally I don’t like torture at all either, but if what we have witnessed is all Young has to do to extract the extremely valuable and life saving information then his dip into torture is a very small price to pay imo. I can understand the posters who view torture as unacceptable in any form but I think their intense condemnation of Young’s interrogation tactics in this particular situation is a shortsighted overreaction.

Young didn’t up the stakes to evacuating the air until he had successfully goaded Telford to confess and confirmed his guilt in front of General O’Neil and himself. It was a most effective display of a psychological form of interrogation. There was no physical duress employed. It was Telford that attacked Young and brought about Greer’s unwelcome attack. Young made it clear that he did not want or need Greer or Scott to intercede.

Telford by his own admission is an avowed traitor and murderer. The rapid extraction of the information by Young is a very small price to pay for Telford’s treatment imo. Subjecting a known traitor and murder to his final tactic is a world of difference from doing it to someone who has been picked up off the street with only a suspicion of guilt. For those so opposed I would like to hear what specific alternative interrogation techniques they would have employed?

I would also like them to explain how the lives that would be saved from the intell that is likely to be gained doesn’t more than offset the moral harm done to Telford from his limited “torture” in this instance?

Frankly, I think Young’s interrogation of Telford so far has been exemplary and far from morally reprehensible as some have maintained. The information Telford was withholding is vital to both Earth and Destiny's interests and Young is likely going to obtain it expertly. If a cowardly traitor and mass murder like Telford has to undergo some very rough treatment to obtain it, then so be it. To suggest that the moral fabric of our society will unravel from this one carefully administered and controlled, isolated and authorized instance is a shortsighted overreaction. Telford's necessary abuse for the greater good in this exceptional instance is justified and warranted imo.

Besides there is nothing to be gained from killing both Telford and Rush; even if he wanted revenge (which I don’t believe) there are far too many witnesses to get away with it. If Telford doesn’t crack and passes out then Young will open the door to the compartment and repressurize it. Young will have bluffed and Telford will have had the courage to wait him out. I don’t think it will go down this way. Telford has already demonstrated that he is a coward and is fully aware of just how much bad blood there is between Young and the both of them. Young is gambling that Telford will be too afraid to risk that he may just kill them both and will crack.

[ZGoten]

The thing is, nature doesn't give us rules to live by. That's why our societies need to create their own set of laws, in order to live in harmony. This, however, doesn't change the fact, that each individual may have completely different moral ideologies. In fact if we all had the same opinion on moral, politicians wouldn't need to discuss and change laws, would they?
You can say something is right or wrong from a lawful point of view, but you cannot say that the same thing is ultimately wrong/right if we leave that lawful bondage for a moment. Those who make laws are no different than any other. No higher forcer tells them what is right or wrong, because there is no such thing.

[Blackhole]

Morality, justice and other instances of right and wrong can obviously be generalized but ultimately imo they have to be evaluated and judged on a case by case basis and often they must be considered in a much broader context. Rarely is it as simple as following a rule book.

[Gater83]

Young had the authorization to interrogate Telford. The fact that it got violent was not his fault. Telford attacked him and then Greer came in and really roughed up Telford/Rush. But I think that the whole air supply thing was just a ploy. He had to make some kind of effort to not only save Rush's life but to also to protect the others on the ship. I don't believe for a second that Young would have gotten to the point where he would sacrifice Rush just to spite Telford.

[EllieVee]

Young had the authorization to interrogate Telford. The fact that it got violent was not his fault. Telford attacked him and then Greer came in and really roughed up Telford/Rush. But I think that the whole air supply thing was just a ploy. He had to make some kind of effort to not only save Rush's life but to also to protect the others on the ship. I don't believe for a second that Young would have gotten to the point where he would sacrifice Rush just to spite Telford.

Why? He doesn't like Rush. He's already beaten the guy up, left him on a planet to die, expressed the opinion that he doesn't care if Rush dies, is happy to pull the plug on Rush when he's in the chair no matter what it does to him, and accused him of being a spy in the Lucien Alliance. amongst his other ridiculously paranoid accusations.

So, what makes you think Young gives a toss about Rush?

[Artemis-Neith]

Why? He doesn't like Rush. He's already beaten the guy up, left him on a planet to die, expressed the opinion that he doesn't care if Rush dies, is happy to pull the plug on Rush when he's in the chair no matter what it does to him, and accused him of being a spy in the Lucien Alliance. amongst his other ridiculously paranoid accusations.

So, what makes you think Young gives a toss about Rush?

I'm not 100% sure that Young would like to kill Rush in that very moment, but to get the information he wanted, he played definitely not only with Telford's life but also with Rush's. If something goes wrong here, both will die, it's extremely risky.
One question occur to me while watching this scene: would Young do this exactly in the same way if the body would belong to Scott, or any other of his people?

[Krazeh]

Why? He doesn't like Rush. He's already beaten the guy up, left him on a planet to die, expressed the opinion that he doesn't care if Rush dies,

All prior events which Young, from all subsequent evidence, is trying to put behind him and work on his relationship with Rush.

is happy to pull the plug on Rush when he's in the chair no matter what it does to him,

Not sure how you get that from him confirming with Brody that disconnecting Rush from the chair could kill him, after being told by TJ that he's just suffered a cardiac event and remaining in the chair will likely kill him. Not to mention that Young actually ends that conversation by siding with leaving him in the chair so he can try and find the master code.

and accused him of being a spy in the Lucien Alliance. amongst his other ridiculously paranoid accusations.

Not sure how keeping your options open about the identity of the spy constitutes a ridiculously paranoid accusation. He would have been derelict in his duty to have not raised the possibility of Rush being the spy. Framing Telford and taking over a body back on earth in pretense of being someone else would have been very good cover for someone if they were actually the spy and needed to get in contact with the LA.

So, what makes you think Young gives a toss about Rush?

The steps he's taken to try and improve their relationship since the events of Divided. It's clear, to me at least, that he regrets his actions in Justice/Space and wants to put those behind him. It's also clear that he's been trying to build bridges between the two of them. Why would he now throw all that away?

[Major_Griff]

I mentioned this earlier in the thread and no one responded, but Telford never told Young about the Icarus type planet, so from Young's POV all he was trying to get from Telford was the location of a random LA base. So even if somehow torture would be justified to stop the LA from getting to Destiny, Young had no idea. Which must make you pro-torture people think Young was less justified?