The Greater Good

[Krazeh]

If I have his motives pegged right? Yep. You can't go back from some things. While Rush did ruin the lives of a bunch of people by substituting his desire to preserve his life's work over their wellbeing, he did so in a way that was not calculated, not intentionally cruel or malicious. And I feel what he did was horrible, but at least I don't come away from it feeling like this guy can never redeem himself, or that he is necessarily evil because of one evil act.

Torture is a procession of evil acts strung together, and if you're going to go on that march, it damn well better be because the forseable result of not torturing a person is so awful that it actually would be the more heinous crime to do nothing. If I felt like Young was doing all of what he's doing for the purpose of saving lives that were definately in danger, then I'd say he's redeemable from this. But he seemed to enjoy it; he certainly gloated enough. He gave more reasons to torture Telford as punishment when he talked than he did to 'help him,' an outrageous statement if I ever heard one. The total disregard for Rush's life is not at all unexpected, just dissappointing to see that Rush actually trusted Young with his life, immedietly and without hesitation when he knew he was doing something important for the sake of the crew, and for a moment there, I thought Young might be moved by that. But Young writes him off easily when faced with a chance for revenge and an excuse to make it look otherwise. I did not fail to notice the old crazy paranoia at play here too, thinking that Rush was the operative himself; why bring it up if so? Makes no sense at all.

If I am right about Young, and I can't imagine I'm completely wrong, then I don't see how I can ever respect him again.

What about the fact that by locating Rush, and therefore Telford's body, they will be saving Telford's life? We've seen the regard the Lucian Alliance, and Kiva, have for people who've failed them, do you think they'd think twice about killing Telford if he were returned to his body while he was still in their possession?

As for bringing up that Rush could have been the spy I think that's only prudent. Attempting to frame Telford would give the spy the perfect opportunity to get themselves into a position where they could contact hte Lucian Alliance, something that would be tricky to do if they were stuck on the Destiny.

Officers do indeed end up having to shoot people in non split-second situations. One of my co-workers has already had to do that 3 years ago.

Exactly, and in those situations I would imagine that, even tho killing someone is wrong in normal circumstances, the decision to shoot becomes the correct one because of the situation you're in.

[Disastorm]

Cmon guys don't you remember when tealc was brainwashed? I'm sure both Young and Oneil remember which is why Oneil said he could take it to the "next level". Thats exactly what they did to tealc. The only way you can get rid of the brainwashing is by almost dying. Who wants to bet that is what Young is doing to Telford right now?

[EllieVee]

What torture?

Young was interrogating Tellford, confronting him and his treasonous acts. Tellford got a beating from Greer cause he attacked Young. Even after that, Young remained calm and continued to ask his questions. Then General O'Neill got on board and gave permission to take it to the next level. Then came the venting bluff.

Young wont kill Rush, so at worst Tellford loose consciousness. I didnt see any water boarding, nail removing, finger cutting, sleep deprevation, etc. Just good old mind games.

So wheres the torture?

We know Young won't kill Rush if only because

Spoiler:

RC is in S2

but Young has already tried to kill Rush and

Spoiler:

from what I've seen of the preview for Incursion,

he's not caring overmuch if Telford and thus Rush dies.

[Cold Fuzz]

Exactly, and in those situations I would imagine that, even tho killing someone is wrong in normal circumstances, the decision to shoot becomes the correct one because of the situation you're in.

and during the time, it was absolutely necessary for my co-worker to pull the trigger. The perp had already bludgeoned someone to death with a crowbar and was repeatedly warned of the use of deadly force. Being strung up on PCP or whatever it was he was on, he of course did not listen and my co-worker had absolutely no choice but to pull to trigger to safeguard not only himself but the victim's family as well. It was absolutely the right thing to do.

[escyos]

'The greater good'...well thats beer....so destiny is all about beer......i think ill have a beer

[Daro]

What torture?

Young was interrogating Tellford, confronting him and his treasonous acts. Tellford got a beating from Greer cause he attacked Young. Even after that, Young remained calm and continued to ask his questions. Then General O'Neill got on board and gave permission to take it to the next level. Then came the venting bluff.

Young wont kill Rush, so at worst Tellford loose consciousness. I didnt see any water boarding, nail removing, finger cutting, sleep deprevation, etc. Just good old mind games.

So wheres the torture?

You BELIEVE Young won't kill Rush. Why should I do that? He's been eager to do so in the past. I don't know if he'd kill Rush in this circumstance or not, but the evidence so far and the actions he's committing point to the most likely answer. Either way, the issue is torture.

Torture is inflicting pain, and true fear of death, on someone else to get what you want from them. I didn't expect Young not to defend himself in the fight, nor do I think working on Telford's guilt is wrong. Sleep deprivation, food and water deprivation, that is a little bit more fuzzy, hard to be quantified as torture in my mind, but it approaches it at extremes. But I won't say Young was wrong for this, because I didn't see any indication that he went to extremes.

Slowly suffocating someone is absolutely torture. When you suffocate, you don't just black out and exit stage left. First of all, venting the atmosphere will make the room extremely cold too, so there's the temperature plunge, a tactic that the Nazis used. As the body's temperature drops, piercing pain shoots through you. You go numb later, but that's not until the cells are finished dying.
The actual suffocation itself is torture because not being able to breathe DOES hurt. It is not quick. Someone can be conscious for a long time if the air is suddenly gone, maybe a minute. Slowly venting it is even worse, as your body struggles to take in oxygen and starts shutting down as a result. Drawn out like that, it's bound to take more than a minute, and it's bound to be both terrifying and painful.

Torture doesn't have to leave a mark to be called such.

[Astrofighter]

Taking the oxygen out of a room that size will not cause it to get extremely cold, yes the process to make things cold is to take out the moisture, but taking out the oxygen in a single room on a space ship would not make it cold enough to effect a person like you described. How he ends up suffocating is hard to say, if the oxygen is gone first then it could be painful, but clearly all the oxygen has not been removed from the room and telford can still speak and communicate. Therefore it seems more likely its going to be a slow process and he might succumb to CO2 first, which would just knock him out.

Also, why do you think he would let Rush die? They mended their fences to a point, they both know they now need each other if they are going to make it. He won't sacrifice Rush and he doesn't want Telford to die at least not before he gives him the information on the LA planet. Do you really think Young is that blood thirsty? SO Telford lost his marriage for good, he has a kid on the way on the ship...and it seems that he and TJ have also mended a lot of fences from their past relationship. The only true anger Young feels for Telford is the fact that he betrayed Earth and got a lot of people killed in the process.

But I can guarantee that he won't kill Telford here.

[Demerzel]

If he kills "Telford", he kills Rush as well. So, not happening. Young is just trying to scare Chavez..err, I mean Telford.

[eonflux]

Nothing to be gained ...
I know it's hard. Rush is part of the team. And I really thought when I was looking at the ep. Like what are you doing Young. Can the writers not leave this Rush <> Young blah in the past and move on. Is Young trying to kill Rush again.

After the show ended I just realized. He knows what he's doing. You cannot let a high ranking officer go back to the LA with god knows how much intel he has from the earth operations. For that matter he could have given the code for the Iris of SGC. Or even worse. This ep. proofs it because look at the intel LA already had!

First you need to know what and how much you have been compromised! This is not about the life of one man but the lives of many.

[Lahela]

Some folks seem to be implying that it's not okay for the bad guys to torture people because they're doing it for the wrong reasons, unlike Young who has the moral high ground. Who is to decide what the right reasons are? Us? What force of nature made Earth-based humans the arbiters of morality in the universe at large? Torture is wrong by its very nature - submitting another human being to unbearable pressure (be it physical or mental) in order to attain your own ends is about as evil as it gets. But *everyone* who does it (be it in-show or in RL) does it because they think they are doing it for the right reasons. Does Ba'al not honestly believe the Goa'uld are superior to any other creature and therefore have the right to mastery of the universe? Does Kiva not honestly believe that the LA have as much right as Earth to Destiny? Does Young not honestly believe that he has right to submit Rush's body to extreme physical force (and threaten two lives) in order to get another person to talk? Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Torture is wrong, despite how right the torturers think they are.

[pipi]

Right or wrong is in the eye of the beholder. What is justice? Whoever is victorious writes the rules. It's been that way on Earth for centuries. But that does not stop someone from having an opinion.

This episode was awesome. Right or wrong? Who cares. Just watch it and enjoy.

[Vapor]

Obviously, torture is a despicable act which should not be committed for any frivolous reasons. However, there is the extremely rare case in which a situation is grave enough, in which innocent lives are imminently placed in danger, when the authorization of limited torture techniques must be considered. In order to preserve innocent life that would be extinguished through no fault of its own by an unreasonable enemy in a "ticking time bomb" scenario.

I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested that torture is a good thing. Most people have made it abundantly clear that it is a horrible thing that should almost never be used for any reason. But there is still that 2% of the time where our unwillingness to make the hard decision and take action will cost the lives of a great number of innocent people, for the sake of an ideal.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to sleep well at night if I had the chance to save dozens of people who had their whole lives ahead of them because I chose not to compromise the comfort of a single individual whom I knew beyond reasonable doubt had heinous criminal intent against us all. I wouldn't be thrilled to do it by any means, and the memory of it would haunt me for the rest of my life, but the consequences of my inaction would be so much worse.

As far as Young's personal motives in this particular scenario go? I honestly don't think this has anything to do with revenge. We can't overlook the fact that he has had a history with Telford, and that complicates things. But as was said in the episode countless times, he knows that Telford has changed from the man he used to be. Considering what their previous encounters were like, Young showed a fair deal of restraint throughout the episode, up until the end. His intent was not to get back at Telford, but to get the information he needed, just as he and Rush both agreed they would, and Jack sanctioned. I saw none of the pleasure in Young's demeanor that the OP seems to suggest he was feeling in those final moments. I saw someone determined to get his point across as sincerely as possible. Even if it was just a bluff- Telford needed to "know" that he wasn't going to stop until he got what he needed to protect his people (which can include both the Destiny crew and Earth, btw).

In my view, Young did what he had to do. What few people could have done. It's not pleasant at all. It's not what most of us would have preferred. And in an ideal situation, it most definitely should not have been Young himself as the guy that carried it out, given his history with the detainee. But it had to be done nonetheless.

[Ed]

Morality isn't some objective concept its something we made up through consensus and its relative

If your only two choices are to torture one person or let 80 die its blindingly obvious there are only two choices which do you pick to me its clear.

In this situation the torture is the right choices because 80 deaths is much much worse to put it another way the lesser of two evils how is this a difficult concept?

[garhkal]

He was wrong. As soon as Telford admitted he was the spy and made his speech, it was quite obvious that there was nothing to be gained, they should have disconnected him and let the LA deal with him.

Agreed. Once he learned that Telford was NOT a zatarc but a willing spy, he should have cut off the stones.

But that would leave Destiny completely open to invasion. Without the coordinates of the planet, Earth can't attack and prevent them from dialing in

No it would not as they have not finished the work to GET there.. That is why rush is still alive as the need him to do what he does.

Kiva is wrong because she has access to drugs, she has the time for a long interrogation, and her people are in no immediate danger. She just uses torture because she finds it quicker and more effective, and judging by how long it took Rush to break she was sadly right.

WEll, he is not a military man who has not been trained on resisting torture. AND he has also recently been tortured by the blue aliens as well..

We have no evidence of that. On the contrary it appeared the Lucian Alliance were making fair progress towards managing to connect to the Destiny. Capturing Rush only sped up their timetable, they would have got there in the end tho without him.

Maybe. BUT with that knowledge, rush and the SGC would be more than able of making a good defense AND with that knowledge (they have another planet) the SGC can now scan around for it (and if atlantis is still there, use it's sensors!)

I know it sounds idealistic, but I think it's important for the good guys to keep themselves from becoming the bad guys.

Too true. I liken it to cops and criminals. if the cops have to do criminal acts to catch the Criminals, then have we really locked up the criminals? If the good guys have to do evil to catch evil, have we lessened the evil in the world?

And torturing someone in another's body (notably the body of someone you hate so it's killing two birds with one stone) is morally suspect at best.

Especially if the one's body who is being inhabited knows nothing of the torture going on over there.

So Ba'al was justified when he tortured Jack in Abyss because he really wanted to know some Tok'Ra secrets. And it was necessary for Teal'c to be tortured by Hero'ur's minion because they really wanted to quell the Jaffa rebellion. If you start making exceptions, then any old excuse will do.

Too true, cause if it is justified for us, then it is justified for them.

Cmon guys don't you remember when tealc was brainwashed? I'm sure both Young and Oneil remember which is why Oneil said he could take it to the "next level". Thats exactly what they did to tealc. The only way you can get rid of the brainwashing is by almost dying. Who wants to bet that is what Young is doing to Telford right now?

IMO this is a much more insidious form of brainwashin than the zatarc tech..

[Krazeh]

Agreed. Once he learned that Telford was NOT a zatarc but a willing spy, he should have cut off the stones.

So send him to a certain death, most likely preceded by torture to find out what he may have disclosed, at the hands of Lucian Alliance? You think that's a morally superior route to take? And at this stage I don't think it's been proven one way or another that he's acting entirely under his own free will.