The Greater Good

[Krazeh]

I think I've adequately explained my reasons to be against torture for any reason, so I'm not go back into it.

All I can see you've said is that you think it's always wrong, I don't see any explanation for that reason beyond it apparently making you the "bad guy" or any attempt to even consider that there could be situations where torture is an action you need to take.

[EllieVee]

Who is Young going to kill in this episode? Do you know how long it takes to die from suffocation in the form of having oxygen removed from a room like it has been for Telford? First the remaining air will get very thin and he will start to suffer from CO2 poisoning. Then he will pass out, due to lack of oxygen to his brain. At that point why would Young not fill it back with air and save Rush? If he wanted to kill Telford he could just shoot him. Its clearly a bluff to scare him into giving him the gate address to the planet the LA is on with Rush.

Given Destiny's issues, he would be taking a hell of a risk. And, wasn't it 'vent the atmosphere'? That sounds rather faster than a slow leaking of air out of the room, does it not?

[Major_Griff]

Sorry, but both examples you cited are specious. Ba'al was torturing Jack to get Tok'ra secrets yes. But was Ba'al trying to save lives in the process? Absolutely not. Any secrets he extracted from Jack would have resulted in many Tok'ra deaths...deaths that would be considered murder. Ba'al, Heru-ur and every other Goa'uld wouldn't hesitate to use torture to perpetuate their dominion. There's a world of difference between using torture to continue tyranny and using torture in order to save innocent lives.

So let's not be any better than the Goa'uld.

From his point of view, of course. They were acting to save the lives of their people from the deaths that would result from a prolonged war with the Tok'ra/rebelling Jaffa/Earth. Of course, they're still bad guys and they ultimately just wanted to kill people, so the justification there is iffy at best. And how nice it must be to sit up there on your moral high ground, watching the world below burn. You could always help put out the fire, but you might dirty your hands in the process... so it's better to just let the fire rage on, right?

Like I said before, find another way.

[Major_Griff]

All I can see you've said is that you think it's always wrong, I don't see any explanation for that reason beyond it apparently making you the "bad guy" or any attempt to even consider that there could be situations where torture is an action you need to take.

Like I said what's the point of defeating evil if you are evil yourself?

[s09119]

Like I said before, find another way.

And like I said before, what if there isn't? If you had the ringleader of the 9/11 attacks sitting in front of you, and you knew they were going to launch an attack somehow, somewhere, within the next hour, would you do nothing and let countless innocent civilians die? Or would you do whatever was necessary to protect thousands of people from mass murderers?

[Krazeh]

Like I said what's the point of defeating evil if you are evil yourself?

Why does torture automatically make you evil? You've already made it clear that you're fine with killing if it's in the defence of others, why is that acceptable and allows you to remain "good"?

[Cold Fuzz]

So let's not be any better than the Goa'uld.

Oh they ARE being better than the Goa'uld. The end result with the Goa'uld would be scores of murdered innocents. Here, O'Neill and Homeworld Security are trying to safeguard the lives of the Destiny crew. Telford may be mentally scarred but he'll survive. A mentally scarred person's pain can be mended with time. But if something terrible happens like Volker, Eli, Chloe, or TJ's baby dies, that CANNOT be undone. The ends do justify the means in this case. They don't always but in this case, they certainly do.

I think you're missing an interesting juxtaposition in this episode: Kiva using torture for evil purposes, for personal gain and potentially murder vs. Young, who is using torture to save lives. The former is unacceptable while the latter is. I believe that's what the writers are trying to bring across with the episode.

[Major_Griff]

And like I said before, what if there isn't? If you had the ringleader of the 9/11 attacks sitting in front of you, and you knew they were going to launch an attack somehow, somewhere, within the next hour, would you do nothing and let countless innocent civilians die? Or would you do whatever was necessary to protect thousands of people from mass murderers?

I don't know to be honest, but whether or not I would resort to torture doesn't make it any more or less wrong. And it doesn't justify what Col Young did in this situation. If he's really worried about them dialing Destiny...

I just realized Young would have had no idea that they had an Icarus planet to dial Destiny. Rush only found out on the cargo ship and as far as I can remember Telford never said anything about. He just said he leaked the info that lead to the attack on Icarus. So even if it was somehow justified to torture Telford to keep the LA out of Destiny, Young didn't know they had any way to actually get there. So as far as he knew he was just trying to find an LA base, unless I missed something.

[Major_Griff]

Why does torture automatically make you evil? You've already made it clear that you're fine with killing if it's in the defence of others, why is that acceptable and allows you to remain "good"?

Like I said if it's a split second, me or him, situation where I have a gun and only have time to react and pull the trigger, that's totally different than making a calculated decision to violate another persons civil rights. It's a matter of survival instincts and a calculated decision. Totally different things.

[s09119]

Like I said if it's a split second, me or him, situation where I have a gun and only have time to react and pull the trigger, that's totally different than making a calculated decision to violate another persons civil rights. It's a matter of survival instincts and a calculated decision. Totally different things.

Calculated decisions are made to violate civil rights fairly regularly, like the jailing of dissidents in a time of war or the implementation of martial law in a crisis.

[Daro]

So, Young, irredeemable?

If I have his motives pegged right? Yep. You can't go back from some things. While Rush did ruin the lives of a bunch of people by substituting his desire to preserve his life's work over their wellbeing, he did so in a way that was not calculated, not intentionally cruel or malicious. And I feel what he did was horrible, but at least I don't come away from it feeling like this guy can never redeem himself, or that he is necessarily evil because of one evil act.

Torture is a procession of evil acts strung together, and if you're going to go on that march, it damn well better be because the forseable result of not torturing a person is so awful that it actually would be the more heinous crime to do nothing. If I felt like Young was doing all of what he's doing for the purpose of saving lives that were definately in danger, then I'd say he's redeemable from this. But he seemed to enjoy it; he certainly gloated enough. He gave more reasons to torture Telford as punishment when he talked than he did to 'help him,' an outrageous statement if I ever heard one. The total disregard for Rush's life is not at all unexpected, just dissappointing to see that Rush actually trusted Young with his life, immedietly and without hesitation when he knew he was doing something important for the sake of the crew, and for a moment there, I thought Young might be moved by that. But Young writes him off easily when faced with a chance for revenge and an excuse to make it look otherwise. I did not fail to notice the old crazy paranoia at play here too, thinking that Rush was the operative himself; why bring it up if so? Makes no sense at all.

If I am right about Young, and I can't imagine I'm completely wrong, then I don't see how I can ever respect him again.

[Krazeh]

Like I said if it's a split second, me or him, situation where I have a gun and only have time to react and pull the trigger, that's totally different than making a calculated decision to violate another persons civil rights. It's a matter of survival instincts and a calculated decision. Totally different things.

So you don't think that Police Officer's ever shoot people after having taken time to consider their actions and decide it's the correct one to take? And that it's always done as a split second reaction? Or that all actions taken in war time are all split second choices and nothing is considered beforehand?

[Daro]

Given Destiny's issues, he would be taking a hell of a risk. And, wasn't it 'vent the atmosphere'? That sounds rather faster than a slow leaking of air out of the room, does it not?

No, it's going to take five minutes for him to die. It's an obvious intimidation through torture tactic, just one that is as sure to result in death if continued as Kiva's method of torturing Rush was.

[meo3000]

What torture?

Young was interrogating Tellford, confronting him and his treasonous acts. Tellford got a beating from Greer cause he attacked Young. Even after that, Young remained calm and continued to ask his questions. Then General O'Neill got on board and gave permission to take it to the next level. Then came the venting bluff.

Young wont kill Rush, so at worst Tellford loose consciousness. I didnt see any water boarding, nail removing, finger cutting, sleep deprevation, etc. Just good old mind games.

So wheres the torture?

[Cold Fuzz]

So you don't think that Police Officer's ever shoot people after having taken time to consider their actions and decide it's the correct one to take? And that it's always done as a split second reaction? Or that all actions taken in war time are all split second choices and nothing is considered beforehand?

Officers do indeed end up having to shoot people in non split-second situations. One of my co-workers has already had to do that 3 years ago.