Was it really necessary to show James at the end?

[s09119]

You just KNOW what Eli does in the kino room at night. To relieve stress, of course...*cough*

Oh gods, bad images...

[SupremeLegate]

Kevin writes: “Who is James crying for in bed?”

Answer: The fact that this scene of James, alone in bed, came on the heels of the scene of Scott and Chloe in bed together was intended to suggest a connection. James is crying because she’s lost Scott to Chloe. A scene that didn’t make the cut (actually the final draft) that could have shed a little more light on this took place after Chloe’s capture. Scott is marching down the hall from the shuttle when James approaches and asks if he’s alright. He curtly dismisses her, more interested in pressing Young about Chloe. It was a quick scene we had to lose due to the domino effect of a changed storyline (you’ll find out about that in the coming episodes).

I didn't make that connection, guess I was annoyied at seeing Chloe with Scott. Note to self: Stop connecting with Eli so much.

And I can see her breaking down when she is alone in her own quarters. While, as far as I know, we don't know the extent of her relationship with Scott, we do know how his being with Chloe affected her. We know this by how she reacts in "Water,' when she catches Scott and Chloe and then how unconfortable she is when she talks to Chloe.

I would think first she would be hurt, then mad, followed by depressed, ending with a break down after that scene that was deleted.

[GateroomGuard]

I didn't make that connection, guess I was annoyied at seeing Chloe with Scott. Note to self: Stop connecting with Eli so much.

And I can see her breaking down when she is alone in her own quarters. While, as far as I know, we don't know the extent of her relationship with Scott, we do know how his being with Chloe affected her. We know this by how she reacts in "Water,' when she catches Scott and Chloe and then how unconfortable she is when she talks to Chloe.

I would think first she would be hurt, then mad, followed by depressed, ending with a break down after that scene that was deleted.

One thing I noticed though was when they said Chloe was captured by the Aliens James seemed to be the most vocal in concern.

[Commander Zelix]

Even better, it was JM's episode. Not to mention, I think we know James well enough to know that she wouldn't be reduced to crying over a guy she barely knows, especially considering the guy (Dr. Caine) never said he wasn't interested in her.

Its not like that. Caine was like the last drop.

As I said in the general forum. I thought James was way over Scott. IMO, she cried because of her loneliness, the Caine "incident" being the last drop making her face this loneliness. I liked that scene, it felt real. And I usually don't like that type of scene.

[Pharaoh Atem]

You just KNOW what Eli does in the kino room at night. To relieve stress, of course...*cough*

i usually don't like your posts but I lol'd

[Lord Hurin]

Ugh, cries of sexism and racism are rampant in society today.

Showing a woman crying over a relationship is sexist? Why? Does it never happen in real life? Men and women BOTH cry over such trivial things. Sure, James is military but she's still human.

I don't like Wray as a character. Her only purpose seems to be to become a pain in the ass. Does this make me sexist or homophobic? I don't think so. If it were a straight man being power-hungry but then utterly useless when command decisions need to be made then I wouldn't like them either. Rush is power-hungry and maybe a little nuts, but I think he'd at least be able to make good decisions and run things somewhat smoothly on the ship.

These characters aren't perfect. TJ isn't a perfect doctor; she couldn't save Spencer from a bullet wound to the head. Scott isn't a perfect soldier; he couldn't take down all those fighters AND the mothership. Yadda yadda yadda. I find it more interesting this way, personally.

[Commander Zelix]

There's a bit of of what I call the "wonder woman syndrome" actually on TV. Women are shown to be physically strong, intelligent, good sense of humor, without any flaws. But in real life women and men got flaws. And on SGU every character got flaws why should the women be spared?

[wargrafix]

she cried because she's ( i don't know) human?

[Camasi]

I mean, the show hasn't been blatantly sexist insofar, but I got really ticked off when we were shown James randomly crying at the end of "Space".

Sure, in the past we'd had fan service scenes where either Chloe or James is naked or half-naked but, hey, at least that wasn't sexist. It was just opportunistic (of the writers/showrunners). Then, in this episode, all of a sudden, James is reduced to a 14 yearold girl!

First get the scene where she gushes about the Cute Scientist (henceforth known as the Cutist). Then, when she is told that he can hear her, she goes "Kill me now!" while she and TJ run off and TJ's practically skipping and being all "Girlfriend! That was so embarassing!"-ish. Then the Cutist turns her down, which seemingly leads to her crying in her room (half-naked, I might add).

I mean, what gives?! These are strong military women! Soldiers! James has always been portrayed as the one with the Big Boobies Who Can Kick Most Guys' Asses. Yet one guy turns her down and she is reduced to tears? Really?! Unless I'm going senile, I don't remember Eli crying when Chloe ended up going out with Scott. And he's a softie civilian! Meanwhile, just because James is a woman, she stereotypically breaks down in tears?!

I thought we were past this, PTB.

I had to sign up and post just because i saw this. However, long time reader around here. Hello everyone .

Quick background. I am a grad student in philosophy and i have specifically had to study feminism in it's many different forms. I have experience with identifying these cultural stereotypes as well. I have also been in the Air Force for over 8 years. I had to comment on this.

A few episodes at the end of SGU have shown the characters reflecting in their quarters. Sometimes it is extremely evident what they are thinking about, but a lot of times not. (I imagine this is why we talk about it on forums ). I think the purpose of these is to show the human and psychological element about what they are going through. I think it is very short sighted for people to make these quick judgments on what this means or that means based on little information. Your drawing unfair comparisons between characters of typical tv shows to the characters on this tv show. I would almost contest that some of you seem to be conveying the message that you can pick these characters apart and show objective evidence as to why they need to be like this or act like this. Unbelievable.

The people on the ship are seemingly going through an extremely stressful time, which is obviously playing on their psyche. This is a sort of thing that previous Stargate series sort of failed to capture. SGU is obviously moving at a much slower pace to try to capture this human element. The point is i am guessing the writers are not going for cookie cutter characters that are extremely predictable in everything they do (at least not yet). The original poster is calling out sexism just because a tough woman, who happens to be a "soldier" (she is in Air Force Special Forces..so that is an incorrect term), is crying. I would hope that she is crying! She is a human being after all! In fact any psychology book can tell you that this is a common reactor to extreme stress and depression. We have no idea of Lt. James' history in that aspect. This is in no way implying any sort of unfair stereotypical judgment just because she is a woman. In my experience in the military, even the tough special forces types have a bit of a breakdown... it is a good coping mechanism! She is probably experiencing some kind of loneliness mixed with depression and anxiety. When it matters she keeps her cool and acts as a military member should, in fact she did quite a heroic thing shutting down the power when there was electricity arcing all over the place.

I have to disagree with your opinion. I think you are reaching too far and being illogical in your assumption that this is sexist. You are also being very stereotypical in assuming that Eli would break down in tears over personal relationships before James would. Just because we are in the military does not make us invincible to personal relationships! I do not think that any one person has displayed an ultimate superiority when it comes to relationships (i am talking outside of the show). Also, she is in her sleeping quarters and presumably in clothes that she is comfortable in when she sleeps. I do not think she was half-naked either.

Basically what i am trying to communicate here is this:

- This is not sexist.. it is human.
- Try watching the show from a dynamic perspective without cookie cutter stereotypes. Understand the social/psychological dynamic.
- Just because someone is bad ass at their job and can kick guy's asses does not mean that they are invulnerable in their personal life.
- It hurts your argument when you make the sexist call and then support this by assuming other stereotypical positions. Especially the fact that you had to comment on her breasts. What does that have to do with anything?
- Sorry if i sound mean or cocky. I am just trying to help you bolster your own argument in the end and point out a couple inconsistencies. If you can still point out why this is actually sexist and nothing else and do it well then i will give way to your argument.

[Camasi]

It was argued that she was crying because she was really sad or only or whatever and that it's normal for people to cry. So it's normal to cry because Scott treated her like crap, but someone so depressed they'd take their own life doesn't cry right before shooting himself?

There are multiple explanations for this. There are plenty of documented cases where someone commits suicide without any sort of emotional breakdown. Spencer was also off of his medications (the Air Force would not allow him to be in if he was taking those.. he would not even be able to hide it well.. especially if he was at a top secret facility such as Icarus.) When someone is off of their medications they may experience very strange withdrawal symptoms. Usually when someone decides to commit suicide it is something they have thought about for a long time, and they have steeled themselves to carry through with it. It is not a prerequisite to cry before dying. I am just disappointed that the show did not show them noticing these tell-tale signs earlier. Personnel are trained to see this sort of thing and are encouraged to help prevent it before it happens.. but hey they are on a ship stuck on the other side of the universe!

As i said before, you are making an incredible amount of assumptions and applying stereotypes to each situation. It is almost like you become disappointed if the story does not carry out the way you see fit.

[Mike.]

Yawn. If a woman cries it's sexist. If a man cries it's unrealistic/still sexist because the writers need to compensate for the women.... You just can't win.

These are real people, not borg drones. So what if they let out a tear every now and then...

[asdf1239]

for every minute of crying, the character development goes up another notch

[pipi]

You just KNOW what Eli does in the kino room at night. To relieve stress, of course...*cough*

He's building his own internet and website so people can logon and watch his homemade Kino videos at $5.95/month. Or maybe he's smuggled a private collection of his own videos before leaving Earth and is using the Kinos as a video player

[reddevil18]

i usually don't like your posts but I lol'd

Well, that makes me feel better, then...

[FallenAngelII]

Really? Are you seriously not understanding what my point is that I'm trying to make? Apparently not, given your responses to GateroomGuard. You're essentially looking at each discrete event and deciding whether or not each one warrants crying by itself. And this is why I say you're strawmanning.

No. I was ridiculing the idea that many of those points would be worth crying over ever, either as individual events or as a whole.

Because, really, many of those points are ridiculous. Oh boo-hoo, nobody said "Thank you!" directly to me for doing my job of saving their asses. Really? Really? You'd expect a man to ever cry over anything like that? Even as a part of a whole? How would this ever contribute to someone emotionally breaing down?

Of course these isolated incidents (by themselves) wouldn't break Lt. James. Unfortunately, that's not what I or anyone else here is saying. If you can't understand why compounding stresses over the course of weeks (yes, weeks) couldn't cause someone to break, then I'm done here.

The difference between stress causing someone to break on shows like the Stargates is that men are just shown in the foetal position rocking back at forth. Women turn on the waterworks because... they have vajayjays.

Maybe you hold military members in some strange echelon in which absolutely nothing will break their spirits, I don't know. However, my final words will be this:

No. I'm saying it's unrealistic for James to suddenly break down in tears for relatively minor things when we have seen male characters not break down in tears over much more traumatizing situations.

She's a strong woman, and has dealt with a lot over the past few weeks. Yes, weeks. The fact that she started crying in the privacy of her own room is completely consistent with her characterization to this point.

Wait... what? How in the flying fig is this consistent with anything? It's just something the writers sprung up on us now. We've never seen any indication that she was gonna break down emotionally (and cry) until now.

As I said before, I think it's disingenuous to suggest she's crying solely because Scott treated her like crap in the hallway.

I haven't argued that since you first outlined the scene for me. Stop strawmanning me.

But (as I've also said before), given all that she's been through these past few weeks, the idea that this is the "straw that broke the camel's back" is entirely understandable.

Would you expect a man to break down in tears over the things outlined in the big post of 10+ Things That Would Make Me Cry?

They are not assumptions. In fact, had you actually understood what GateroomGuard was saying in his post (and what I'm still trying to get across), you'd understand that we know quite a lot about what she's been through.

And I don't expect a reasonably stable human being, especially not someone who's trained to withstand pressure, stress and trauma, to break down in tears over things so relatively minor, even if it's a whole bunch of minor things put together.

First, you clearly have never been in such a stressful situation in your life.

Second, just because you claim you wouldn't react in the same manner does nothing to solidify your point about a character who is not you. You can't use your own personal experiences on how you would react and transplant your actions onto a different person or assume that he or she would react to stress in the same way you would. You have to look at the character's experiences and reactions on the show. GateroomGuard listed numerous things that have caused various levels of stress for James (in addition to be trapped on a spaceship billions of light years from home), all things that have happened on the show. Given James' reaction at the end of the show, it is perfectly reasonable to think that they all piled on and eventually became too much. Not everyone can take the stress of a single situation and deal with it in a short period of time.

And again I ask:
1) Why James? She's one of the strongest women on the ship. Why not have someone whose character is more emotional, such as Chloe or Wray break down in tears over stress?
2) Why did she have to cry?! You're arguing that she was crying due to an emotional breakdown due to stress. We've never seen a man cry for such a reason on Stargate. Every time a man cries, it's because of sadness of some kind. Death, loss, disappointing your family, etc. Those are "legit" reasons for a man to cry. But a man would never be shown crying due to "stress" because "No one thanked me", "My ex-hookup was mean to me" and "I almost got some people killed today". They might be shown having a breakdown, yes. But they wouldn't cry over it.

That's my gripe, really. Why did it have to be crying? And why did it have to be a women. Face it, even in 2010, many people think it's perfectly natural for a women to bawl her eyes out at every little thing while men are wimps if they ever cry over anything other than the death of a loved one.

In the age where the gender stereotypes of "Girls cry because they're sad" and "Boys cry when they get hurt" are still prevalent, why must Stargate add to the mix by having yet another women cry over something a man would never be caught dead crying over? You can whine about feminazis all you want. The fact of the matter is that intentional or not, this was yet another scene that really didn't add much to the show as a whole but which undermines women in some way.

Because you could've shown her breaking down without crying. All the crying did was show us that James is a very emotional woman and that when she is sad/stressed/depressed, she cries. Whoopitty-doo.

This is the reality genre of the show. There is no such thing as a non-sexist storyline and other politically sensitive topics that make shows a bit superficial and goodie goodie like SG-1. James crying after being dumped only makes the show more realistic of human emotions. Would you have prefered she blow her brains out like that other 'male' soldier did when he was depressed.

She was dumped weeks ago. I don't buy this whole "It didn't sink in until now" crap.

Also, again, why did she have to cry? Why not just be mad and throw things? Or simply be sad and staring out her window. Or anything but crying. Because it's realistic for a woman to cry over getting dumped, something a man would never do?

Also, Spencer blew his brains out due to (clinical) depression. But, hey, seeing as how he had a penis, even when depressed to the point of committing suicide, he never cried. Because the penis is that powerful!

As I said in another thread: she's lonely. She thought she'd at least have Scott when they got stuck here, but now she realizes that she cared abot him way more than he cared about her, and no one else seems to want to risk a relationship out in the middle of nowhere. Being stuck so far from home, getting kicked to the curb, and then getting rejected... yeah, guy or girl, I'd be crying, too.

Assumptions, assumptions, more assumptions.

Scott was already cold to her right after they'd gotten on the ship. She walked in on him and Chloe weeks ago. She's known it's over for weeks now. Still, that's a BS reason to cry! She's crying because she doesn't have a boyfriend?! For the love of puppies, and you don't think that is sexist?! Would you ever expect a male character on Stargate to cry because they don't have a girlfriend?!

Even Eli, the soft, wimpy little science geek who's probably had limited to no girlfriends in his entire lifetime didn't start bawling when Chloe chose Scott without so much as sparing him a second glance first, yet James, hardened soldier who can kick all of our asses, starts bawling because Scott dumped her and Caine just said he's not interested in pursuing a relationship with her at this time?!

And that would not be sexist how exactly?

How about, the characters showcase a variety of ways to releasing stress, just like normal people.

We have never, nor will we ever (my prediction) see a male character cry due to stress, at least not for any of the reasons being offered up in this thread as to why they'd cry.

Its not like that. Caine was like the last drop.

As I said in the general forum. I thought James was way over Scott. IMO, she cried because of her loneliness, the Caine "incident" being the last drop making her face this loneliness. I liked that scene, it felt real. And I usually don't like that type of scene.

So, she cried because she was dumped by a boyfriend she never had? And again I ask: Would you expect a man to cry over something as relatively trivial as that?

Ugh, cries of sexism and racism are rampant in society today.

Showing a woman crying over a relationship is sexist? Why? Does it never happen in real life? Men and women BOTH cry over such trivial things. Sure, James is military but she's still human.

Weeks after it's over? Strong military men and women trained to be able to handle stress?

Also, the point is that we've seen people cry on Stargate for a variety of reasons. We have never seen a man, military or civilian, big manly man or big softie, cry over a relationship. And the fact of the matter is that many in today's society still have this delusion that only women cry over relationships. And showing yet another woman cry over a relationship in a show where a man wouldn't be caught dead crying over a relationship just contributes to the problem.

Especially on a franchise that hasn't been that good to women to begin with.




People don't seem to get it. I'm not objecting to the fact that it's a woman crying. I'm objecting to the following facts:
1) That's James of all women crying.
2) That she's crying for reasons as trivial as "Scott was mean to me", "Caine didn't want me", "Nobody thanked me for saving their behinds", etc., even as a big whole.
3) That it's a woman crying over "emotional" issues, like stress, relationship and the like on a show where we've never (and probably never will) seen a man cry over issues other than death and loss.

But what do I know. Writers, prove me wrong. Show us a man, preferrably a big strong man like Greer, break down into tears due to relationship troubles or something. Then I'll consider it even and realistic instead of it just being yet another woman being "a woman" (not "human", but "a woman"), crying over stuff "women often cry over" like getting dumped or not having a boyfriend.