The Obligatory Rush Thread

[EllieVee]

I agree with you. I think Robert Carlyle confirmed on the Kino video that Rush was capable of and responsible for a level of ruthlessness and cruelty that many Rush supporters are uncomfortable with or more often unwilling to acknowledge. In face of that video they can no longer give him the benefit of the doubt that he could be that callous.

You know, as a Rush 'supporter' as you so disdainfully write, I find it offensive that someone who generally only posts at all to slam Rush (don't you have any other interests?) is attempting to speak for us. Do please stop that because you don't have a clue.

[Blackhole]

There can be no doubt that Rush was working on a program because (a) Franklin said so and (b) Rush and Brody subsequently utilised it when Rush sat in the chair. It is hardly Rush's fault that Franklin decided not to wait for it.

Robert Carlyle said in the Kino video that “Rush forced Franklin to sit in the chair. He chose to use the term “forced”. It is a direct quote and a very strong and telling term. RC is a very smart man; you don’t think he would choose his words carefully?

Imo forced means Rush needed a sacrificial dupe to experiment on; at the very least he manipulated Franklin to sit in the chair or at the very worst he forced him to by coercion. Either act is indicative in my mind, of a frighteningly cold and calculating degree of ruthlessness on Rush’s part. Prior to RC confirming revelation of the intent behind his character; the jury had been out to the degree of ruthlessness that Rush had possessed. Now the verdict is in. Looking back at all of Rush’s past questionable actions through the filter of RC’s statement paints Rush in a far more sinister and evil light and lends far more credence to Young’s pre-Divided view of him as reckless and a threat to Destiny.

[Blackhole]

You know, as a Rush 'supporter' as you so disdainfully write, I find it offensive that someone who generally only posts at all to slam Rush (don't you have any other interests?) is attempting to speak for us. Do please stop that because you don't have a clue.

If you ever bothered at all to read my posts then you would know that I don’t only post to slam Rush. Besides it is irrelevant, I am entitled to my opinions. If you don’t like what I have to say why do you continue to try and bait me? Choosing to be offended when someone posts an obvious conclusion is really your problem; and trying to deflect my arguments by attacking me isn’t going to change the validity of what I have to say either.

Robert Carlyle said in the Kino video that “Rush forced Franklin to sit in the chair. He chose to use the term “forced”. It is a direct quote and a very strong and telling term. RC is a very smart man; you don’t think he would choose his words carefully?

Imo forced means Rush needed a sacrificial dupe to experiment on; at the very least he manipulated Franklin to sit in the chair or at the very worst he forced him to by coercion. Either act is indicative in my mind, of a frighteningly cold and calculating degree of ruthlessness on Rush’s part. Prior to RC confirming revelation of the intent behind his character; the jury had been out to the degree of ruthlessness that Rush had possessed. Now the verdict is in. Looking back at all of Rush’s past questionable actions through the filter of RC’s statement paints Rush in a far more sinister and evil light and lends far more credence to Young’s pre-Divided view of him as reckless and a threat to Destiny.

[Kaiphantom]

Robert Carlyle said in the Kino video that “Rush forced Franklin to sit in the chair. He chose to use the term “forced”. It is a direct quote and a very strong and telling term. RC is a very smart man; you don’t think he would choose his words carefully?

RC is a smart man, but when you get involved with multiple series and learn about how things work on set... you learn that the actors really don't know much. I've seen, on a *consistent* basis, an actor to say one thing, and then later be proved wrong in an episode later. In short: I wouldn't take much from the actors, except what they use as motivation for a scene. I have no doubt RC used the mental image of "forced Franklin to sit" as something Rush would visualize; he probably visualized forcing several people to sit in the chair, like Greer, Spencer, Brody, Volker, or someone else.

But as for what really happened? We don't know. It wasn't shown, and thus any speculation is conjecture. All we know is that Franklin was apparently alone, sent Eli away for mashed potatoes, and then Eli found him in the chair. Rush arrived sometime after, but before Young.

[Blackhole]

RC is a smart man, but when you get involved with multiple series and learn about how things work on set... you learn that the actors really don't know much. I've seen, on a *consistent* basis, an actor to say one thing, and then later be proved wrong in an episode later. In short: I wouldn't take much from the actors, except what they use as motivation for a scene. I have no doubt RC used the mental image of "forced Franklin to sit" as something Rush would visualize; he probably visualized forcing several people to sit in the chair, like Greer, Spencer, Brody, Volker, or someone else.

But as for what really happened? We don't know. It wasn't shown, and thus any speculation is conjecture. All we know is that Franklin was apparently alone, sent Eli away for mashed potatoes, and then Eli found him in the chair. Rush arrived sometime after, but before Young.

Thanks for your input but I think the video stands alone and more than speaks for itself. The actors are going to know a little more than you are giving them credit for. Robert Carlyle is certainly going to be clear on the motivations and intent behind his character.

[EllieVee]

If you ever bothered at all to read my posts then you would know that I don’t only post to slam Rush. Besides it is irrelevant, I am entitled to my opinions. If you don’t like what I have to say why do you continue to try and bait me? Choosing to be offended when someone posts an obvious conclusion is really your problem. And trying to deflect my arguments by attacking me isn’t going to change the validity of what I have to say either.

Most certainly you're entitled to your opinions but challenging them is not an attack. Indeed, the baiting is all from your side, as has been the attacks from the beginning. When challenged you come back with a complaint of 'You're attacking me'. This is incorrect. If you were actually a Rush fan you would have some credibility about us but you're not.

[Daro]

Let's take it down a notch. I think both Ellie and Blackhole make good posts with valid points, and it's a waste of the post and a chance for good conversation when we dissolve into the Rushies v. the Young fans. I somehow suspect that the most divisive issue, Franklin in the chair the first time, will not be resolved on the show for a long time, if ever. It's up to the individual if they want to take information from a source outside the story itself, such as an actor's opinion.

I would ask, though, how exactly Rush could have possibly forced Franklin to do anything? Franklin was bigger, and Franklin wasn't afraid to stand up for himself. I don't see Rush being that nasty, even if he had a way to physically force someone in the chair. Coerce, yes, I'd believe that. Though I don't know why Franklin would listen to Rush especially, since Rush had Greer shoot Franklin in the first episode and Rush most likely was not very nice to work for anyway.

[EllieVee]

Let's take it down a notch. I think both Ellie and Blackhole make good posts with valid points, and it's a waste of the post and a chance for good conversation when we dissolve into the Rushies v. the Young fans. I somehow suspect that the most divisive issue, Franklin in the chair the first time, will not be resolved on the show for a long time, if ever. It's up to the individual if they want to take information from a source outside the story itself, such as an actor's opinion.

Daro, I most certainly will object to Blackhole stating what Rush fans think when he/she is not one.

I would ask, though, how exactly Rush could have possibly forced Franklin to do anything? Franklin was bigger, and Franklin wasn't afraid to stand up for himself. I don't see Rush being that nasty, even if he had a way to physically force someone in the chair. Coerce, yes, I'd believe that. Though I don't know why Franklin would listen to Rush especially, since Rush had Greer shoot Franklin in the first episode and Rush most likely was not very nice to work for anyway.

How is your use of the word coerce different to the use of the word force?

[Daro]

Daro, I most certainly will object to Blackhole stating what Rush fans think when he/she is not one.



How is your use of the word coerce different to the use of the word force?

You can't know who or what Blackhole is a fan of, his opinion of Rush now seems to have evolved some with the story, even if his opinion of Rush's previous actions are the same. You're free to take offense and argue as you will, though, I was just trying to bring the conversation back to the topic.

Coerce is not the same as force. Coercing someone is convincing them, persueding them to do something. When you force someone, they have absolutely no choice. When you ccoerce someone, they choose to buy into your willfully misleading argument. If, and I am not convinced this happened, Rush intentionally got Franklin to sit in the chair, there is no way he forced him. The worst possible explanation is exactly what Young said: "You made sure the temptation was there." Rush, if he coerced Franklin, intentionally made unfounded conjectures as to the lethality of using the chair (it's an earlier version, etc.) and intentionally made sure that his group thought it was the only chance to get home. Still, in that situation, Franklin chose to believe that and chose to plunk himself down in the chair. Force isn't a word that's actually been thrown around much, until recently after RC's interview that seems to be the source of this re-hashing of a months old argument. I fail to see how Rush, a hundred pounds lighter than Franklin and ten years older, could ever be said to have forced anyone to do anything unless he had a gun to their head. And if Rush had a gun, I think we'd have found out about it in Divided.

[Blackhole]

Most certainly you're entitled to your opinions but challenging them is not an attack. Indeed, the baiting is all from your side, as has been the attacks from the beginning. When challenged you come back with a complaint of 'You're attacking me'. This is incorrect. If you were actually a Rush fan you would have some credibility about us but you're not.

You know, as a Rush 'supporter' as you so disdainfully write, I find it offensive that someone who generally only posts at all to slam Rush (don't you have any other interests?) is attempting to speak for us. Do please stop that because you don't have a clue.

disdainfully write

Disdainful: full of or showing disdain; scornful

You are accusing me of showing scorn. Provide an example when I have shown scorn. - An attack.

“If you're going to cite interviews with Carlyle, perhaps you ought to widen your reading of them.” Why, what is wrong with the one I just quoted? If you are suggesting another interview by RC presents another or different picture why don’t you just quote it? Your statement is attempting to discredit my argument by suggesting my interview is not accurate. If this is so, why don’t for once actually support your position instead of making a very sloppy attempt to discredit me? - A bait.

"I find it offensive that someone who generally only posts at all to slam Rush (don't you have any other interests?) is attempting to speak for us." If you ever bothered at all to read my posts then you would know that I don’t only post to slam Rush and obviously I have other interests. – Two more attacks.

"Do please stop that because you don't have a clue." You haven’t presented a shred of evidence that contradicts my conclusions. Why don’t you again for once actually support your position instead of making yet another very sloppy attack? And I certainly do have a clue.

I have only analysised your last two posts and have found four attacks, one bait and your usual baseless claims with a complete lack of any supporting arguments.

We have done this dance in the past and I for one am getting tired of it. I work hard at ignoring any posts that you direct at me. I would think by now that you would have figured out that we don’t share any common views and that I don’t appreciate what I consider is your dismissive, condescending, unfriendly and often negative style of posting.

I have a proposition for you. Why don’t you ignore me and I will ignore you.

[Blackhole]

I would ask, though, how exactly Rush could have possibly forced Franklin to do anything?

He used his position as team leader and foremost scientific expert to unduly influence Franklin. He played on his obvious desperation to get him to sit in the chair when he knew full well that it was very dangerous and would likely result in a severe and/or possibly fatal injury. If that isn't as meaningful a definition of force, then I don't know what would be.

[Coronach]

He used his position as team leader and foremost scientific expert to unduly influence Franklin. He played on his obvious desperation to get him to sit in the chair when he knew full well that it was very dangerous and would likely result in a severe and/or possibly fatal injury. If that isn't as meaningful a definition of force, then I don't know what would be.

I'd disagree, and say that he purposefully manipulated him. Force (at least for me) is solely reserved as a definition for if Rush were to have physically made him sit in the chair against his will. Force requires an element of unwillingness or lack of choice on the person being acted upon, and no matter what sort of mind games Rush was playing...Franklin still had the choice to sit in the chair or not.

We may disagree in a semantic way, but correct me if I'm just straight-up wrong on what actually happend as I haven't rewatched very many SGU episodes so I'm going based on memory.

[Daro]

He used his position as team leader and foremost scientific expert to unduly influence Franklin. He played on his obvious desperation to get him to sit in the chair when he knew full well that it was very dangerous and would likely result in a severe and/or possibly fatal injury. If that isn't as meaningful a definition of force, then I don't know what would be.

But what you're describing here is still not the same as 'forcing' someone, I'm sorry. What you're describing is manipulation and coercion. Rush was manipulating Franklin by his emotions, by logic, by verbal means. He didn't, as far as we know, threaten to kill him. When you force someone to do something, it means that they don't want to do it, and you make them do it anyway. If Franklin had not wanted to sit in the chair, he could of opted not to. If he felt that Rush was actually going to hurt him if he didn't or something, he had ample opportunity to seek help from Young or Eli. It seems, instead, that Franklin deliberately sent Eli on an errand at the crucial moment, which indicates to me that Franklin was in on the whole thing. I'm not saying that, if Rush really did intentionally experiment with someone else's life, he's not at least half to blame for Franklin's injury. But he didn't force him by the definition of the word.

However, I think this stems back to us still dancing around the apparently super-controversial RC interview. We've got to stop meeting like this. ^_^

[EllieVee]

I have a proposition for you. Why don’t you ignore me and I will ignore you.

I did for a while and then got the whole thing all over again as soon as I posted something pro-Rush in a thread. The other thing you do is the 'prove it!' thing, which no, not playing that game having done it before. This is where you triumphantly shout 'See!' to all and sundry like you did last time.

You don't get to speak for me as a Rush fan. That's it.

[Stewart5]

Robert Carlyle said in the Kino video that “Rush forced Franklin to sit in the chair. He chose to use the term “forced”. It is a direct quote and a very strong and telling term. RC is a very smart man; you don’t think he would choose his words carefully?

Imo forced means Rush needed a sacrificial dupe to experiment on; at the very least he manipulated Franklin to sit in the chair or at the very worst he forced him to by coercion. Either act is indicative in my mind, of a frighteningly cold and calculating degree of ruthlessness on Rush’s part. Prior to RC confirming revelation of the intent behind his character; the jury had been out to the degree of ruthlessness that Rush had possessed. Now the verdict is in. Looking back at all of Rush’s past questionable actions through the filter of RC’s statement paints Rush in a far more sinister and evil light and lends far more credence to Young’s pre-Divided view of him as reckless and a threat to Destiny.

Interviews with actors are not canon. Simple as that. It may be Rc's interpretation of the event, but for all you know, there will come a point where the writers prove that interpretation to be completely wrong.

Thanks for your input but I think the video stands alone and more than speaks for itself. The actors are going to know a little more than you are giving them credit for. Robert Carlyle is certainly going to be clear on the motivations and intent behind his character.

I've seen it, and it doesn't - it's RC's opinion. Not canon, not something established by the writers, who are the ONLY ones who can say what has definitely gone down.

You have indicated that you think Young lacks character and used his attack on Teleford as an example. I agree in a strict sense that violence against a fellow officer shouldn’t be condoned. However in Telford’s case Young discovered that he had cozied up to his wife and told her his affair with TJ was still going on. It was an outright lie intended to break them apart. Young had exposed Teleford’s cowardice to command during Earth. If you remember he and the others cut and ran from Destiny when their return plan started going badly south. Teleford retaliated by trying sabotage his marriage. I think Telford’s attempt at undermining Young’s marriage and his cowardice were reprehensible. Can you really blame Young for wanting to kick the living sh*t out of Teleford? I think this instance was an indication that an anger management problem existed. I don’t think it is fair to try and cite it as an example of a lack of his character. Besides violence, what should he have done to him?

I grant you that having an affair with TJ was inappropriate. But I ask you, how many prominent politicians (and presidents for that matter) haven’t done the same thing and remained in office?

As he is a senior officer in the military, yes I can blame him for attacking a superior. He should never have assaulted Telford, no matter how he felt. And, at that point, Telford hadn't actually engaged in an affair.
What sort of argumetn can that possibly be?

In regards to TJ, your argument makes no sense. "They did it and got away with, so should he"? Madness. And whether or not he stayed in command because of it, it certainly takes awya the moral high ground he places himself on when he attacks Telford. Hypocrite.
Also, it was an affair with a subordinate officer. Military law is quite clear on how that should be dealt with.


As for cutting and running, that was simple battlefield triage. Say the ship did explode, and they stayed. That would mean not only the people inhabiting thier bodies would die, but they would also die as their minds were destroyed, causing even more deaths. Was it right, probably not. But not exactly cowardice. Stay there to cause more deaths amongst senior officers and staff?

You also said “Young turned into a nasty and vengeful person, nearly killing a man whose crimes certainly didn't warrant execution”. I agree that his action was done in anger and was inappropriate but you have completely downplayed the degree of Rush’s provocation. He marooned 80 plus people on an ancient spaceship nearly a universe away from family and friends; indirectly causing the deaths of six people. He planted false data of an Icarus type planet in the ship’s computer. He “forced” (by Robert Carlyle’s own admission in a Kino video) Franklin into sitting in the chair causing him severe brain damage. I know you don’t want to acknowledge this video as cannon for the show but I think most viewers would disagree with you. And finally, he attempted to frame Young with a trumped up murder charge. Rush deserved a severe punishment, maybe marooning him was too drastic but imo being left on the planet wasn’t far from what he deserved.

It was attempted murder, pure and simple.

In hindsight Rush did make it back to the Destiny relatively unharmed and his behavior since returning has steadily improved. He needed a very strong wake up call. Young’s punitive action in no small part set the emotional stage for the revelation he gained in his lucid dream at the hands of the ship’s computer and his sub-consciousness mind.

doesn't matter the outcome, the thought in young's mind was to leave Rush to die. That's like saying if someone tries to shoot you, but the gun is empty, then evrything is okay. They broke through the mental barrier that led them to the frame of mind needed to try to end a life.

Rush’s presence is instrumental to Destiny’s survival. His consequent rehabilitation has dramatically improved conditions and security for everyone on the ship. I look at it as a situation of no harm no foul. Young has demonstrated character flaws but so has Rush and to a much great degree. As to whether Young’s self-sacrificing actions are due to a hero complex or to a guilt motivated need to atone (for what he did to Rush) will probably have to be determined later. Maybe we will be shown a new Kino Video that addresses this particular issue?

Young has shown many times he is incompetant, and put the ship at risk. I'd say those were the actions he was atoning for, not his attempted murder.

I also want to say that I think both parties are now behaving far better. Personally, I think it is best to forgive or at least overlook past transgressions, clean their slates and give them a fresh start. I am going to judge them on how well they perform from this point forward. I think this is the show’s intent as well.

The human condition will not allow them to simply forgive and forget. Young was framed for murder and almost lost command, and Rush was almost left to die. That leaves a massive white elephant in the room that no amount of smoothing over will deal with

I did for a while and then got the whole thing all over again as soon as I posted something pro-Rush in a thread. The other thing you do is the 'prove it!' thing, which no, not playing that game having done it before. This is where you triumphantly shout 'See!' to all and sundry like you did last time.

You don't get to speak for me as a Rush fan. That's it.

I don't think he was speaking for you, as much as trying to paraphrase what he thopguht you were saying