'Sabotage' (116) General Discussion

[timebandit]

well if franklin did ascend it'd be cool to see some ascended-franklin scenes, what with white background and all ...

the away team issue really is about two gates dialing simultaneously into destiny, one making it and one not - though they tried immediately afterward and didn't make it - and the ship had been said to by then be definitely 'past the point of no return' ... for them to get back can only make sense as a similar safeguard to the one in air part 3 when eli stuck his hand in the event horizon .. except i can only see it as some power requirement from the planet's gate and destiny recognizing and somehow getting that gate to boost its range via subspace or something crazy like that. the team seems to really not get how they made it, but when rush said the alien may have used subspace while in james's body, it made me think, subspace .. and maybe, they found destiny when the team tried getting back? its like theyre destiny - stalkers ... creepy
[hopefully less crazy than my last "idea"]. ..

[Eestlanna]

That kind of false and ridiculous alarmist talk is propaganda used by pro-life groups to scare young people away from getting abortions. Having an unwanted baby is going to be far, far, far more traumatic and damaging to their lives than going through an abortion.

As I said, don't have sex if you can't have the baby. PS. Objecting abortion as a birth control is no foolish propaganda. I suggest you deepen a bit more. I agree it must be done in several cases, but never ever use it as a birth control nor demand a woman to do it. Nowadays there are plenty of opportunities to handle things differently and more healthier.

[s09119]

As I said, don't have sex if you can't have the baby. PS. Objecting abortion as a birth control is no foolish propaganda. I suggest you deepen a bit more. I agree it must be done in several cases, but never ever use it as a birth control nor demand a woman to do it. Nowadays there are plenty of opportunities to handle things differently and more healthier.

Or we could let women do what they please with their bodies and leave it at that. TJ, for example, would be perfectly within reason to have an abortion if she wanted, considering the strain on resources having a baby would be to the crew.

[timebandit]

If amanda comes back to destiny to get closer aka sleep w/dr rush, who do you think she would swap with? one reason I think he hesitated from the whole thing was b/c it was Camile. [other than the obvious reason] [the 'its complicated' line].

TJ is pretty sure shes keeping the child ... theres already 80+ people on board, one child isn't going to strain it much more, is it? My concern is nourishment [food] for the poor kid in his first few years.

[Commander Zelix]

Despite the kinosode explanation, I still find the whole "you are giving permission for people to do anything and everything with your body" idea REALLY squicky. I don't think you can just wave off the moral issues of body ownership that easily. I kinda hope that they get some drama related to the whole "you used my body to do WHAT?" issue at some point. Hearing something in theory and having it actually happen can be two really different things. Especially if someone using a stone to get earthside does something with your body that other people earthside remember.

It doesn't make sense at all. Rush sleeping with Wray's body. It just to crazy to think about. I can't believe Wray would sign up for it. There's a big chance Wray could get pregnant or contract diseases. It's just plain stupid. What's next female soldiers sleeping with the colonel body (young) for fun? They avoid the subject to create relationship drama (read: people sleeping or not with each other) with the stones.

[Daro]

You are completely right that it takes two to tango. Contraceptives if used as directed are nearly 100% effective and if unprotected sex is had the morning after pill can be taken up to five days afterwards. An early term abortion is certainly unpleasant and uncomfortable but is far from "very brutal to the woman’s body". It is no where near “equally brutal as cutting somebody's penis off and then needle it back on. You couldn't ask someone to do it”. That kind of false and ridiculous alarmist talk is propaganda used by pro-life groups to scare young people away from getting abortions. Having an unwanted baby is going to be far, far, far more traumatic and damaging to their lives than going through an abortion.

I agree that the physical damage (usually) from having an abortion isn't as bad as what can happen from a full-term pregnancy and child birth. The person who posted about it being like cutting off a penis and sewing it back on is indeed just spouting the kind of nonsense that pro-life activists shout to scare people into doing what they think they should, enforcing their beliefs and will on another human being. I'll believe actual doctors over that lot any day of the week.

However, there's a psychological factor here. Emotionally speaking, deciding to terminate a pregnancy is never, in what I've heard, an easy choice. Nor does it come without a fair to severe amount of psychological damage. Ultimately, no matter what agreements are made prior, no one knows until they're actually pregnant how they will react. I'm pro-choice, but I recognize that there's a distinct biological imperative that changes one's outlook entirely when a pregnancy occurs. A man may feel something similar, but it is not to the same intensity or degree a woman would because of the flood of new hormones that are surging through her and the much stronger instinctual drive to protect and nurture their child. Any woman who promises a man that she'll abort if she becomes pregnant is a fool; that is an empty promise that they have no way of actually knowing they can fulfill. Any man who believes such a promise is also a fool; he should be aware of these things too, and never bet on arrangements decided before the fact. Although I understand the gist of your argument, and agree to some extent (there are many women who entrap men by getting pregnant purposefully, and that sort will tell all kinds of lies to get what they want,) any mature adult who has sex must accept the possibility, however slim, that a child may result from that union. It's just wishful thinking to believe that a sexual relationship will never get much more complicated later on.

[Daro]

It doesn't make sense at all. Rush sleeping with Wray's body. It just to crazy to think about. I can't believe Wray would sign up for it. There's a big chance Wray could get pregnant or contract diseases. It's just plain stupid. What's next female soldiers sleeping with the colonel body (young) for fun? They avoid the subject to create relationship drama (read: people sleeping or not with each other) with the stones.

I dunno. If the kino episode is really all it seems to be, then doesn't it seem distinctly unfair that Wray can have lesbian sex while in someone else's body, and yet the woman she swaps with can't have the same sort of freedom? Surely she is aware that the volunteers agree to let the visiting person use their body in the same way they would their own. After all, each person faces the same possibilities: sex, disease, getting drunk, getting in a car wreck, whatever. I wish they would clear it up completely, one way or the other, but I hate the idea that Amanda and Rush can't ever be together, while Wray and Sharon can do whatever they like. The biggest difference in my mind is that Destiny is a much smaller population, where everyone knows everyone else and birth control is, for all we know, non-existant.

[jelgate]

I agree that the physical damage (usually) from having an abortion isn't as bad as what can happen from a full-term pregnancy and child birth. The person who posted about it being like cutting off a penis and sewing it back on is indeed just spouting the kind of nonsense that pro-life activists shout to scare people into doing what they think they should, enforcing their beliefs and will on another human being. I'll believe actual doctors over that lot any day of the week.

However, there's a psychological factor here. Emotionally speaking, deciding to terminate a pregnancy is never, in what I've heard, an easy choice. Nor does it come without a fair to severe amount of psychological damage. Ultimately, no matter what agreements are made prior, no one knows until they're actually pregnant how they will react. I'm pro-choice, but I recognize that there's a distinct biological imperative that changes one's outlook entirely when a pregnancy occurs. A man may feel something similar, but it is not to the same intensity or degree a woman would because of the flood of new hormones that are surging through her and the much stronger instinctual drive to protect and nurture their child. Any woman who promises a man that she'll abort if she becomes pregnant is a fool; that is an empty promise that they have no way of actually knowing they can fulfill. Any man who believes such a promise is also a fool; he should be aware of these things too, and never bet on arrangements decided before the fact. Although I understand the gist of your argument, and agree to some extent (there are many women who entrap men by getting pregnant purposefully, and that sort will tell all kinds of lies to get what they want,) any mature adult who has sex must accept the possibility, however slim, that a child may result from that union. It's just wishful thinking to believe that a sexual relationship will never get much more complicated later on.

Thier is a health concern to be aware of having an abortion at TJ's stage of pregnancy. Without getting too in biologicla jargon as the fetus matures and get more developed and dependent on the mother its harder and riskier for the mother to cause the abortion. Then their is Destiny's limitied medical supplies

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

I dunno. If the kino episode is really all it seems to be, then doesn't it seem distinctly unfair that Wray can have lesbian sex while in someone else's body, and yet the woman she swaps with can't have the same sort of freedom? Surely she is aware that the volunteers agree to let the visiting person use their body in the same way they would their own. After all, each person faces the same possibilities: sex, disease, getting drunk, getting in a car wreck, whatever. I wish they would clear it up completely, one way or the other, but I hate the idea that Amanda and Rush can't ever be together, while Wray and Sharon can do whatever they like. The biggest difference in my mind is that Destiny is a much smaller population, where everyone knows everyone else and birth control is, for all we know, non-existant.

everything is a risk
So\s going through a gate or ending up on a ship or walking out your front door
The characters are adults, for the most part, and have been exposed to risk as part of their jobs, again, for the most part. I suppose I'd give Eli and Chloe, the most civilian of the civilians, a break there, because they're not part of the Stargate project until very recently. Adults assess the risks and either take them, or don't. They take the consequences of those results, or don't. But if they don't, they don't get the benefits that adults that are willing to take risks get to enjoy. No one is forcing these adults to take the risk. there's a waiver. there's the chat that Young had where they sought someone to volunteer to take Amanda's place. These are adults making adult choices.

[Commander Zelix]

I dunno. If the kino episode is really all it seems to be, then doesn't it seem distinctly unfair that Wray can have lesbian sex while in someone else's body, and yet the woman she swaps with can't have the same sort of freedom? Surely she is aware that the volunteers agree to let the visiting person use their body in the same way they would their own. After all, each person faces the same possibilities: sex, disease, getting drunk, getting in a car wreck, whatever. I wish they would clear it up completely, one way or the other, but I hate the idea that Amanda and Rush can't ever be together, while Wray and Sharon can do whatever they like. The biggest difference in my mind is that Destiny is a much smaller population, where everyone knows everyone else and birth control is, for all we know, non-existant.

I never said it was ok for lesbian sex either (there's a bit less consequences but still). If I was Wray I would have sign up for a no-use-for-sex stones exchanges both ways. But again, the writers would then not be able to use the stones for sex-related stuff.

[Eternal Density]

While it makes for interesting science fiction, if the potential for a person to take mental possession of another's body existed in real life, I couldn't condone it being used for any purpose... but I don't think that's a topic for the general discussion thread.

I enjoyed this episode. Rush did good.
My main quibble is that the formerly Lost trio didn't seem to be all that concerned about almost being left behind, but when I think about it, dialog did show that they had trusted that they would be rescued, and thought that Destiny reappearing on the remote indicated an intentional rescue attempt. However, I would have liked to have seen their reactions when they were informed that the 'rescue' was only a fluke and they very nearly were left behind irrevocably.

The robot was cool, and I liked Franklin's role. That sure leaves us with plenty of questions to ask. (I like the 'Tron' theory ). Also nice to have another Riley sighting.
It was great to see more use and development of Lt James, she's a great character. (But I really don't like the disrespectful attitude some fans have displayed towards her She doesn't deserve it at all.)

[Blackhole]

I agree that the physical damage (usually) from having an abortion isn't as bad as what can happen from a full-term pregnancy and child birth. The person who posted about it being like cutting off a penis and sewing it back on is indeed just spouting the kind of nonsense that pro-life activists shout to scare people into doing what they think they should, enforcing their beliefs and will on another human being. I'll believe actual doctors over that lot any day of the week.

However, there's a psychological factor here. Emotionally speaking, deciding to terminate a pregnancy is never, in what I've heard, an easy choice. Nor does it come without a fair to severe amount of psychological damage. Ultimately, no matter what agreements are made prior, no one knows until they're actually pregnant how they will react. I'm pro-choice, but I recognize that there's a distinct biological imperative that changes one's outlook entirely when a pregnancy occurs. A man may feel something similar, but it is not to the same intensity or degree a woman would because of the flood of new hormones that are surging through her and the much stronger instinctual drive to protect and nurture their child. Any woman who promises a man that she'll abort if she becomes pregnant is a fool; that is an empty promise that they have no way of actually knowing they can fulfill. Any man who believes such a promise is also a fool; he should be aware of these things too, and never bet on arrangements decided before the fact. Although I understand the gist of your argument, and agree to some extent (there are many women who entrap men by getting pregnant purposefully, and that sort will tell all kinds of lies to get what they want,) any mature adult who has sex must accept the possibility, however slim, that a child may result from that union. It's just wishful thinking to believe that a sexual relationship will never get much more complicated later on.

I agree there are of course psychological ramifications to going through an abortion and I can understand one may feel differently when pregnant. I have known quite a few women who have had an abortion and none of them were traumatized or scarred from their experience. The lesson they learned was to be far more careful with their birth control in the future to insure it didn’t happen again. Abortion is very common. One in 3 women in this country will have had an abortion by age 45 years. Worldwide, 1 in 5 pregnancies ends in abortion, according to the Guttmacher Institute’s 2008 reports. Annual estimates are 1.2 million abortions in the US and 42 million globally. There is no evidence that demonstrates that an abortion causes any lasting trauma. The pro-life groups have tried to fabricate some but have been debunked.

Having a child in my mind is first and foremost a practical decision and should be viewed as such. I am not trying to be dismissive because you make valid points, but maybe the women I have known were different than the ones you have known. I give them far more credit to be practical and pragmatic and less emotional about their child rearing decisions. Most I have completely trusted to know themselves well enough to be certain that having an unwanted child would not be good decision for either of us and would abort it in the unlikely chance a pregnancy occurred. Ultimately, I do agree if you have sex you have to be prepared to have a child.

[Blackhole]

It doesn't make sense at all. Rush sleeping with Wray's body. It just to crazy to think about. I can't believe Wray would sign up for it. There's a big chance Wray could get pregnant or contract diseases. It's just plain stupid. What's next female soldiers sleeping with the colonel body (young) for fun? They avoid the subject to create relationship drama (read: people sleeping or not with each other) with the stones.

I think you and others are really overreacting to the whole stone body exchange thing. The Kino 23 We Volunteer To Do This Video clearly indicates that the volunteers are fully aware that they are consenting to personal meetings with husbands and wives with all that entails. If someone had a problem with their body having sex then they wouldn’t have volunteered.

[Commander Zelix]

I think you and others are really overreacting to the whole stone body exchange thing. The Kino 23 We Volunteer To Do This Video clearly indicates that the volunteers are fully aware that they are consenting to personal meetings with husbands and wives with all that entails. If someone had a problem with their body having sex then they wouldn’t have volunteered.

As I said, I can't believe Wray (or most people for that matter) would sign up for it. I would sign up for a "no use my body for sex" swap.

[Blackhole]

As I said, I can't believe Wray (or most people for that matter) would sign up for it. I would sign up for a "no use my body for sex" swap.

Since Wray on an earlier swap had sex in her exchanged body she can hardly begrudge someone having sex in her body can she? Freedom to indulge in personal activities has to go both ways in order to be fair. Besides how are they going to monitor and police everyone’s personal activities anyway? This is TV show, too much attention to details would ruin the story.