"Sabotage" (116) Pre-Airing Discussion/Speculation Thread

[katikatnik]

It's obvious you've already decided what's gonna happen and how the story-line will be resolved so it would be pointless to keep going.

No, I haven't decided. I just think that using someone else's body to have sex without their consent - not just in this episodes but also in previous - is a plain rape. And if Eleanor and Rush, if they go through with the sex, and any other character who does such an abhorent thing aren't put on trial and sentenced for rape, there are no appropriate consequences. Everything else is a slap on the wrist, not a real and appropriate acknowledgement of the crime committed.

I'm sure you read spoilers for other episodes - was anyone tried for or at least accused of rape on this show?

[Shan Bruce Lee]

No, I haven't decided. I just think that using someone else's body to have sex without their consent - not just in this episodes but also in previous - is a plain rape. And if Eleanor and Rush, if they go through with the sex, and any other character who does such an abhorent thing aren't put on trial and sentenced for rape, there are no appropriate consequences. Everything else is a slap on the wrist, not a real and appropriate acknowledgement of the crime committed.

I'm sure you read spoilers for other episodes - was anyone tried for or at least accused of rape on this show?

Haven't decided? So you know for a fact that Rush knows who's who? You know there are no reprocussions? You know that every occurrence is done without consent given before-hand? And how exactly is any system of law operated by survivors stranded on a ship in the middle of a power struggle?

Apparently you have made up your mind already. But you jumped the gun.

[katikatnik]

So you know for a fact that Rush knows who's who?

Considering the fact that Eli refuses Eleanor in Wray's body saying that the real Wray would never sleep with him...

[major davis]

Thanks Brad! I can only echo what Orion Antreas has already said.

Same here.

[major davis]

That would have been even better. Show runners seem scared to even go there, because they know they'll get even more people complaining. I think they've got balls for going this far, but I'd have given them a round of applause for that.

LOL its like the more morally inapropiate it is the "Better it gets". I mean to me there is more depth with Camille and Sharon becuase it seems Sharon loves Camille for who she is. Even though I totally disagree with homosexuality and think its wrong, I do think it is good that they love each other for who they are. IF it body swap then right to the bedroom scene, it loses any momentum. But it just seems like the more wrong and gross it gets the "better it get". Well sorry for the whining. Just I wouldn't want to see the two dudes doing it. Tackling the issue and the moral repurcussions would be interesting, just I don't want to see two dudes or two girls in bed all the time.

[Shan Bruce Lee]

Considering the fact that Eli refuses Eleanor in Wray's body saying that the real Wray would never sleep with him...

That's a huge leap with no real evidence to suggest Rush knows anything.

[Carterslave]

So let me get this -- pardon the pun -- straight: It's OK for SGU to have a lesbian couple *provided* that there's a whole galaxy or two separating them OR they can be in the same room if one of them is completely paralyzed? As much I'd hoped TPTB had outgrown their gay-panic tendencies, as someone said upthread, these particular leopards can't change their spots. Although BBC shows like "Torchwood" have long since moved past this kind of stuff, TPTB are still inhabiting that timewarp in which gay characters must either be chaste (SGU) or dead (season 5 of SGA).

I agree that the best place for this episode is the nearest trash can ... although I actually think PdL as director is a positive sign. After all, he did a sensitive job with "Rite of Passage" (aka "Cassandra Has Two Mommies") and gave the movie "Better than Chocolate" a shout-out during his commentary for "The Sentinel."

[tinerin]

So let me get this -- pardon the pun -- straight: It's OK for SGU to have a lesbian couple *provided* that there's a whole galaxy or two separating them OR they can be in the same room if one of them is completely paralyzed?

Well if I've read all the spoilers right, this is actually the second time that the lesbian couple will "be in the same room" but the first time "one of them is completely paralyzed" when it happens. And that's just assuming there aren't any additional flashback scenes of the couple.

[PG15]

So let me get this -- pardon the pun -- straight: It's OK for SGU to have a lesbian couple *provided* that there's a whole galaxy or two separating them OR they can be in the same room if one of them is completely paralyzed? As much I'd hoped TPTB had outgrown their gay-panic tendencies, as someone said upthread, these particular leopards can't change their spots. Although BBC shows like "Torchwood" have long since moved past this kind of stuff, TPTB are still inhabiting that timewarp in which gay characters must either be chaste (SGU) or dead (season 5 of SGA).

Well, this show is all about being separated from your loved ones and trying to survive on the other side of the Universe without their support. There's a heterosexual couple that ends up in the same pickle as well.

That said, there are spoilers that say...

Spoiler:

...that Wray and her partner 1). share moments of intimacy and 2) have the most healthy relationship on the show.

[prion]

Yeah, they just posted another article:

http://www.afterellen.com/blog/sarah...to-controversy

^MAJOR Spoilers for more than just this episode!

So...there's a TV/movie trend of lesbians having sex with males? Why do I never catch these things?

You just need to watch enough tv to see yeah, it's not the first time.

[prion]

ETA: From the article above: "he told me sex between bodies (i.e. body swapping) is introduced early in the series, and is an ongoing moral dilemma on the show with serious moral consequences, and this event is no different." OMG, are they serious? So they'll basically what? Borrow someone else's body to get their rocks off on regular basis? So date-raping is now a "moral dilemma"? I think I will be sick.

I showed this stuff to a friend who is a big science fiction fan, watched the stargates but isn't following SGu - she just watches the shows. Anyway, when I told her the body-swapping stuff, she said that houses - not bodies - are for timesharing.

[PG15]

Joe Mallozzi weighs in on this issue:

Today, I’d like to address the online controversy surrounding SGU’s late season episode Sabotage and, specifically, the concern stemming from the released character breakdown and casting sides as they relate to the character of Eleanor Perry.

Let me begin by saying that it’s understandable why so many people are upset. That said, I can assure you that the material being cited does a poor job of reflecting the character or story developments as they will appear in the episode – as will become readily apparent once Sabotage finally airs.

First, there’s the issue of the character breakdown. Now, last year, we tried to address the problem of these breakdowns finding their way out into public forums. The main issue for us arose from the fact that these externally generated summaries were occasionally inaccurate or implied elements that weren’t actually in the script. An example that comes to mind is the online reaction to the all-female team in Atlantis season 4’s Whispers. When those character breakdowns were released, unfairly or not, the general consensus was that we were looking to cast some stereotypical damsels in distress, hapless and hysterical victims for our dashing heroes to save. After the episode finally aired, while fans may have had issues with other aspects of the episode (which, being fans, they often will), the initial concerns stirred by those character breakdowns turned out to be a non-issue. We took steps to avoid the same thing happening again by generating the character breakdowns internally. In theory, it was a great idea since it would allow us to sign off on them in case they did end up getting out there. In practice however…Well, I’m not sure what happened but suffice it to say we dropped the ball. And the result? I think you’d be hard-pressed to find a better example of a worst case scenario. Still, if nothing else, this incident has served as a wake up call. I can guarantee you that, in the future, any and all material will be vetted before leaving our offices.


Second, as Brad and Robert already pointed out in their response, this was an early draft of the script. Negative reactions to some of the cited in-story developments are not at all surprising given that, quite frankly, it happens all the time internally. But how, you may ask, can it be an early draft of the script if it says Final Draft? Well, simply put, just because it says Final don’t mean it’s Final. I direct you to a March of 2008 blog entry I wrote titled, appropriately enough “ THE ULTIMATE EXTREME EXTRA SUPERFANTASTIC BEST LUCKY ULTRA NUMBER ONE FINAL FINAL DRAFT” (http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/...march-10-2008/). I hadn’t even read a draft and provided notes until the beginning of this week. Other players, from the director to the various departments to the network had still to weigh in with their thoughts. From the day it is released to the final shooting version, the script will go through many changes as evidenced by all those lovely multi-colored pages. Again I can assure you that, like the character breakdowns, the audition sides do not accurately reflect the finished script.

Third, I can also assure you that the character of Eleanor Perry will not be portrayed as some sex-starved individual looking to bed down anyone in sight. She’s been in a wheelchair most of her life, not in a hermetically-sealed isolation chamber, so it would stand to reason that her disability would not preclude intimacy. Furthermore, the characters of Eleanor Perry and Nicholas Rush have a pre-established friendship and professional relationship that leads Rush to recommend her for the task of addressing a ship-related issue. This past association, built on understanding and mutual respect, is the seed for any potential affection in this story, not biological drive or missed opportunity.

Fourth, and finally, I’d like to address the issue concerning the character of Camile Wray, the franchise’s first openly gay character. Months ago, while we were gearing up for the start of production, I put forth Wray as one of my favorites. She’s a fish out of water, an administrator on board a space ship, a civilian amongst scientists and military personnel, stalwart, smart, opinionated, but at her core a caring and surprisingly vulnerable individual. One of the season’s highlights so far has been the episode Life in which Wray gets to return to Earth (via the body swap conceit of the communication stones) and be reunited with her wife, Sharon. The scenes are beautifully written and beautifully directed, but it’s the performances of both Ming Na and Reiko Aylesworth that really strike a cord. Their stable, grounded relationship is as much in contrast to the show’s other dysfunctional relationships as it is to Wray’s austere, lonely existence on the ship – making her eventual return that much more poignant. All this to say that we’ve worked hard to present a compelling, believable, multi-layered character – a major player in the shipboard dynamics and intrigue – and we are not about to do anything that will undermine or disrespect her. I’d love to say more, but at the risk of giving away any spoilers…

Yes, we’re aware of the issues and extremely sensitive to all of your concerns. Suffice it to say that once Sabotage has aired, many of those eyeing this episode with certain trepidation will no doubt breathe a sigh of relief – and, here’s hoping, also enjoy the show as well.

---

Multisemi writes: “1. People with disabilities can and do have “intimacy.” They even kiss other people.

2. If someone is “intimate” with my body while I am asleep or otherwise not in conscious control of it and I have not previously given explicit permission for that act, it is rape.”

Answers: 1. Agree. 2. Also agree.

http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/...obust-mailbag/

[sideburns]

Not sure you have noticed but this is a 3rd show which correct me if i am wrong is supposed to be different. Talk about jumping the gun

Obviously I've noticed since I said "...two other shows...." and you might remember that Stargate Atlantis was also supposed to be different. You know - group goes through gate, gets stuck on other side - can't get home - yadda yadda. So what's different here other than the fact that they end up on a ship that can't get home? Would that be like - oh, say, Star Trek-Voyager different? But wait, they have a gate on board, so can travel to planets - gosh, just like Atlantis (which, btw, could fly and thus become a ship as well). Is it going to be darker, edgier? I'd say yes. At least - so it appears from all the clips. But the history of these guys doesn't mean that 'darker/edgier' = 'different' let alone better.

And by now, I suspect the writers have already changed the script. For instance, if Eleanor ends up having sex with Rush in Camile's body - it will be with Camile's permission (now there's a scene I'd love to see at the hands of these oh, so sensitive guys) so the rape issue goes out the door and thus will make everyone happy little campers. *rolls eyes*

Sorry if I seem less than enthusiastic - but unless the Boys at Bridge have changed considerably - well, 'nuff said.

[sideburns]

That's a huge leap with no real evidence to suggest Rush knows anything.

It's a huge leap to assume Rush would be so stupid as to not know. And if he doesn't - that opens an even worse can of worms and makes Eleanor's character thoroughly deplorable and abhorrent.

Besides - I'm betting the writers have already 'fixed' the rape concept by having Camile give Eleanor permission to experience sex. (Which again, plays into the whole 'disabled' person just dying to have 'real' sex now that they can 'walk' - even if it's in another person's body!) Obviously this 42 minute episode is going to be packed to the gills.

First, we have an issue with the ship that they believe can best be fixed/handled by Eleanor, so they use the 'whatever it is' to swap her mind with someone else's on board - and gosh, it's the one lesbian. So Eleanor and Camile switch (Camile being happy to do so, no doubt, since that allows her to be with her 'wife' for however briefly - and please note, Camile obviously doesn't have sex on the brain because she's willing to go into a quad's body) and Eleanor sets about fixing the ship - while at the same time, deciding, "Oh, my, what a perfect time to dump my virginity" and approaching one ship member - who wisely says no because it's "Wray's body" - so then Eleanor goes to Rush (someone she knows and had a relationship with - obviously business relationship if they're going to stick with the virgin stuff) who is 'talked' into agreeing. And if we're going to avoid the whole rape principle, then at some point, a conversation must occur between Eleanor and Camile - and at the same time, we'll hope Rush is aware of the conversation. All in 42 short minute. WOW.

OTOH - all of the above would most certainly take away the dark edginess of the show, let alone the episode. *g*

[tinerin]

First, we have an issue with the ship that they believe can best be fixed/handled by Eleanor, so they use the 'whatever it is' to swap her mind with someone else's on board - and gosh, it's the one lesbian.

Episode Title: Sabotage
Camile Wray's Job Title: Human Resources Executive for the IOA

See a possible connection there?

Eleanor sets about fixing the ship - while at the same time, deciding, "Oh, my, what a perfect time to dump my virginity" and approaching one ship member

How do you know it's at the same time? Maybe it happens after the ship is fixed?