Greer's issues

[Avenger]

It was not really a military settings or situation here. There's no implication for the global war. Its not a situation of the good of the many here. The many being like 2 other people beside you. Yes Young was right at shooting at the attacking aliens ships when Rush and Chloe were in it. If the Destiny explode Rush and Chloe would die anyway.

The lack of combat doesn't make it any less a military situation. It was a mission in potentially hostile territory. Scott was in command of the team. That made it a military setting.

But here, its only 4 people making decision regarding their survival. Scott was a wimp in this situation. I'm ashamed of him. If I was Greer, I would be seriously pissed off and don't see my friendship with Scott exactly the same way. He was ready to risk his life to save Scott's girlfriend just a few weeks ago.

I fail to see how making a decision to save three lives when the status of the fourth is unknown makes Scott a wimp.

I got a question for you. If it was Chloe under the rumbles would he have left her there not knowing if she was dead or not? Would you (being a commander) left your girlfriend there in exactly the same situation?

I can't answer that question since I've never been in that kind situation. Nor am I going to play armchair general with myself.

[JustAnotherVoice]

I still think that if it was one of your children, your girlfriend or even a friend down there even us, who are not Hollywood heroes, would have dig out the rocks. It seems like the natural thing to do.

And this is exactly why emergency services tell emotional/desperate civilians to get away from incidents like collapsed buildings. Random digging could cause secondary cave-ins which could potentially trap more people, or even kill the ones already down there.

It was not really a military settings or situation here. There's no implication for the global war. Its not a situation of the good of the many here. The many being like 2 other people beside you.

Military situation? Maybe - since SG is a military science fiction show, but I'll give you that it wasn't a directly military situation. However, it was a personal survival situation. And, actually, it is the good of the many. The good of the 3 uninjured vs the one man, who by normal conventions, should be dead. The many may not be too much more, but still more than the one.

But here, its only 4 people making decision regarding their survival. Scott was a wimp in this situation. I'm ashamed of him. If I was Greer, I would be seriously pissed off and don't see my friendship with Scott exactly the same way. He was ready to risk his life to save Scott's girlfriend just a few weeks ago.

Survival, as you have said, was the group's primary goal. Survive and try to return to Destiny. If choosing not to risk your life for a man who, by all appearances should be dead, counts as cowardice, then I think you've got some priority issues, especially in a survival situation.

I got a question for you. If it was Chloe under the rumbles would he have left her there not knowing if she was dead or not? Would you (being a commander) left your girlfriend there in exactly the same situation?

I would like to believe that I would make the objective decision and tried to save as many lives as possible. People have called me cold IRL, so I probably would have left, as long as it was the same situation that Scott was in i.e. seeing several tons of dirt drop on her head with the roof about to come down on my head, and no radio communication and with two other people's lives to take into consideration.

[pipi]

I got a question for you. If it was Chloe under the rumbles would he have left her there not knowing if she was dead or not? Would you (being a commander) left your girlfriend there in exactly the same situation?

A perfect argument why women are not allowed to serve in the front lines in most conventional militaries if not all.

[Daro]

A perfect argument why women are not allowed to serve in the front lines in most conventional militaries if not all.

Maybe it's a perfect argument against sending in young officers who are, for all intents and purposes, inexperienced and may lack discipline. Blaming women for the emotional reaction of someone like Scott is ludicrous. And, from what I know from my female friends and family that have served, women in the military don't usually recieve special attention; there is a conscious effort not to do so, sometimes resulting in an exact opposite of the normal situation.

That said, Chloe is not a soldier. Most people in the military would make different decisions if it was their wife/girlfriend/husband, etc that was buried instead of a squad member. Or any civilian, really. Chloe is simply not subject to the same logic as Greer is when it comes to this kind of situation; she lacks any survival training at all. I love how every argument on this board seems to end with Chloe being useless, even though she contributed to the group's survival as much as Eli and Scott in this episode. Greer, however, by disobeying orders from his direct commanding officer on a mission, finally faced real reprecussions for his loose cannon approach.

Scott did exactly the right thing; he got the two civilians out of a dangerous situation and worked his ass off to get them back to Destiny. Greer might not have done the same, but Greer seems to place the lives of civilians below the lives of military on the priority scale. Scott is more equal in his judgments. He had a hard choice and did what he thought was best by leaving his best friend (let's not forget the bromance factor here, nor the brother-in-arms thing.)

Frankly, I wish that all military personnel on Destiny were as dedicated to doing the correct and right thing rather than the emotionally satisfying thing. Perhaps if Greer has a lesson to learn, it's that he needs to be more like Scott. Not less.

[Tuvok]

Maybe it's a perfect argument against sending in young officers who are, for all intents and purposes, inexperienced and may lack discipline. Blaming women for the emotional reaction of someone like Scott is ludicrous. And, from what I know from my female friends and family that have served, women in the military don't usually recieve special attention; there is a conscious effort not to do so, sometimes resulting in an exact opposite of the normal situation.

That said, Chloe is not a soldier. Most people in the military would make different decisions if it was their wife/girlfriend/husband, etc that was buried instead of a squad member. Or any civilian, really. Chloe is simply not subject to the same logic as Greer is when it comes to this kind of situation; she lacks any survival training at all. I love how every argument on this board seems to end with Chloe being useless, even though she contributed to the group's survival as much as Eli and Scott in this episode. Greer, however, by disobeying orders from his direct commanding officer on a mission, finally faced real reprecussions for his loose cannon approach.

Scott did exactly the right thing; he got the two civilians out of a dangerous situation and worked his ass off to get them back to Destiny. Greer might not have done the same, but Greer seems to place the lives of civilians below the lives of military on the priority scale. Scott is more equal in his judgments. He had a hard choice and did what he thought was best by leaving his best friend (let's not forget the bromance factor here, nor the brother-in-arms thing.)

Frankly, I wish that all military personnel on Destiny were as dedicated to doing the correct and right thing rather than the emotionally satisfying thing. Perhaps if Greer has a lesson to learn, it's that he needs to be more like Scott. Not less.

Curious..why would Greer need to be more like Scott. I have not seen him take any action that seems emotionally satisfying. Well.. that was the Telford thing but there is no context given regarding that. So far Greer seems to be acting in a professional manner mostly. As for holding a Grudge against Scott why would he do that. Greer is better then that.

I hope.

[Girlbot]

I believe Greer would have done the same thing Scott did, and for the same reasons, therefore he will hold no grudge against him.

[carmencatalina]

I don't think Greer is going to hold a grudge - and I think Scott is going to be pretty much overjoyed to see him alive, so I'm hoping for a nice long manly hug, at the least.

[Daro]

Curious..why would Greer need to be more like Scott. I have not seen him take any action that seems emotionally satisfying. Well.. that was the Telford thing but there is no context given regarding that. So far Greer seems to be acting in a professional manner mostly. As for holding a Grudge against Scott why would he do that. Greer is better then that.

I hope.

Greer constantly acts in ways that show his emotions overriding his professionalism. From punching Telford, to inciting Scott to disobey orders (in "Earth,) to his intimidating behavior toward Wray and Rush at times when he is in private conversation with either of them. Forgiving him for his instability in the first few episodes, he still has maintained that persistant defiance that finally got him into trouble. As Scott pointed out to Greer, "I'm not you, Ron." Scott does obey orders. There is no question of that. He has only once, that I can recall, intended not to, and that was in "Space" where he wanted to rescue Chloe. And Greer was right on board with the slippery logic Scott used to justify his actions.

Just because I think Greer is undisciplined doesn't mean I think he's wrong or evil. But I do think, if he'd cared a little bit more about his commanding officer's orders and not charged down that tunnel, he'd never have been left behind. If he'd been a little bit more like Scott, he would have been far better off.

And because Greer is an emotionally charged character who seems sometimes unstable, I don't know what to expect. I don't know if there will be a grudge, but I wouldn't be surprised.

[Tuvok]

Greer constantly acts in ways that show his emotions overriding his professionalism. From punching Telford, to inciting Scott to disobey orders (in "Earth,) to his intimidating behavior toward Wray and Rush at times when he is in private conversation with either of them. Forgiving him for his instability in the first few episodes, he still has maintained that persistant defiance that finally got him into trouble. As Scott pointed out to Greer, "I'm not you, Ron." Scott does obey orders. There is no question of that. He has only once, that I can recall, intended not to, and that was in "Space" where he wanted to rescue Chloe. And Greer was right on board with the slippery logic Scott used to justify his actions.

Just because I think Greer is undisciplined doesn't mean I think he's wrong or evil. But I do think, if he'd cared a little bit more about his commanding officer's orders and not charged down that tunnel, he'd never have been left behind. If he'd been a little bit more like Scott, he would have been far better off.

And because Greer is an emotionally charged character who seems sometimes unstable, I don't know what to expect. I don't know if there will be a grudge, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Noted.

But if your commanding officer think he had it coming it must be more complex then allowing his emotions to take hold.

As for inciting, it was a suggestion. As shown in ''Justice'' if Greer want's to get something done he will get to it. And his men will back his play. He did however listen to cooler heads as he should. As for his actions in ''Justice'' he was reacting to a basic kangaroo court in progress.

I have found Greer to be confrontational when it warrants, but controlled when Telford arrested him he did allow himself to be lead away. Greer shows no evidence to being undisciplined. As for him having issues with Scott I highly doubt that occurring. Greer is less hothead then expected after all. When Riley was pestering him after his traumatic day did he get aggressive with him, or smack him around like an uncontrollable psychopath that some people keep saying he is.

No, he did not.

Greer is not a perfect man, but from what I have seen he is a damn good soldier.

[Daro]

Noted.

But if your commanding officer think he had it coming it must be more complex then allowing his emotions to take hold.

As for inciting, it was a suggestion. As shown in ''Justice'' if Greer want's to get something done he will get to it. And his men will back his play. He did however listen to cooler heads as he should. As for his actions in ''Justice'' he was reacting to a basic kangaroo court in progress.

I have found Greer to be confrontational when it warrants, but controlled when Telford arrested him he did allow himself to be lead away. Greer shows no evidence to being undisciplined. As for him having issues with Scott I highly doubt that occurring. Greer is less hothead then expected after all. When Riley was pestering him after his traumatic day did he get aggressive with him, or smack him around like an uncontrollable psychopath that some people keep saying he is.

No, he did not.

Greer is not a perfect man, but from what I have seen he is a damn good soldier.

Well, you have some good arguments there, but again in Justice, it was Young himself who authorized the court system. It was legitimate. Greer percieved a mock trial because he knew his commanding officer was innocent of the crime, and because he was relating it to other injustices perpetrated against people like him. It took a good intervention to keep him from bringing the thunder. If Greer does not follow orders, then he is not a good soldier. He is a good warrior, I will give him that. But a good soldier is the one who not only upholds order, cares about and defends his brothers and sisters in arms, but also submits to the chain of command. He took an oath to do so, this is what it means to be military. Not just being able to fight or being loyal in spirit. That reluctance to follow orders makes him undisciplined in that regard. In other ways, he is very disciplined. Just not that key one, so I'll continue to think of him as a loose cannon until he proves he has changed. I've been wrong about him before, and I look forward to the series proving me wrong once again.

I don't think Greer is a psychopath, though I did at the start of the series. I just think he has some glaring flaws, like Young and Rush, that keep him from being everything his team needs him to be. All three fail to live up to their own professed ethical codes; and everyone does at some point, everyone is a hypocrite. That Rush persistantly violates his moral beliefs and hurts people in the pursuit of his goals, that Young also does this to some degree, and that Greer defies his training and ideals when he gets pushed far enough by his own emotions makes them interesting to watch. Realistic.

[Tuvok]

Well, you have some good arguments there, but again in Justice, it was Young himself who authorized the court system. It was legitimate. Greer percieved a mock trial because he knew his commanding officer was innocent of the crime, and because he was relating it to other injustices perpetrated against people like him. It took a good intervention to keep him from bringing the thunder. If Greer does not follow orders, then he is not a good soldier. He is a good warrior, I will give him that. But a good soldier is the one who not only upholds order, cares about and defends his brothers and sisters in arms, but also submits to the chain of command. He took an oath to do so, this is what it means to be military. Not just being able to fight or being loyal in spirit. That reluctance to follow orders makes him undisciplined in that regard. In other ways, he is very disciplined. Just not that key one, so I'll continue to think of him as a loose cannon until he proves he has changed. I've been wrong about him before, and I look forward to the series proving me wrong once again.

I don't think Greer is a psychopath, though I did at the start of the series. I just think he has some glaring flaws, like Young and Rush, that keep him from being everything his team needs him to be. All three fail to live up to their own professed ethical codes; and everyone does at some point, everyone is a hypocrite. That Rush persistantly violates his moral beliefs and hurts people in the pursuit of his goals, that Young also does this to some degree, and that Greer defies his training and ideals when he gets pushed far enough by his own emotions makes them interesting to watch. Realistic.

Good point that.

I don't think he leads with his emotions all the time, but he does when it is wiser not too.

As for flaws, your right and that is one of the reasons I love this show. Scott is becoming a better 2IC but he still want's to be that guy that gets along with everyone and is liked by everyone. Eli is still a good guy , but he tends to let stronger personalities lead. When he should stand on his own. TJ is competent but she may have no choice but let things get over her head , especially with her pregnancy. Wray, can be unsympathetic and unrealistic. I personally don't think she is fit to take over command. But shown in ''Faith'' she is a voice of reason, just lost and missing her girlfriend immensely. As for Chloe , well she has flaws. But she tries and that counts for something.

The Stargate Universe, the only command structure in the Stargtate Verse that has more flaws and problems per individual then you could shake a stick at.

These people have issues.

Human ones.

The charm is watching them take it and working with it.

[Blackhole]

It was not really a military settings or situation here. There's no implication for the global war. Its not a situation of the good of the many here. The many being like 2 other people beside you. Yes Young was right at shooting at the attacking aliens ships when Rush and Chloe were in it. If the Destiny explode Rush and Chloe would die anyway.

But here, its only 4 people making decision regarding their survival. Scott was a wimp in this situation. I'm ashamed of him. If I was Greer, I would be seriously pissed off and don't see my friendship with Scott exactly the same way. He was ready to risk his life to save Scott's girlfriend just a few weeks ago.

I got a question for you. If it was Chloe under the rumbles would he have left her there not knowing if she was dead or not? Would you (being a commander) left your girlfriend there in exactly the same situation?

Destiny is under a military command. They are in charge and every decision regardless of the circumstances is always a military situation whether made during battle conditions or not. Many posters keep trying to dance around trying to avoid facing this obvious and inescapable reality.

SGU is also a TV show where the circumstances are contrived to create dramatic tension. In any real world scenario similar to the tunnel collapse Greer would have been killed. And if he had survived the crush injuries from tons of rock and dirt would have soon killed him. As you remember they were stranded on the planet and Destiny’s medical facilities primitives as they are were not immediately available. In emergency medicine there is something called the Golden Hour. It is the length of time individuals with life threatening injuries are expected to survive without advanced emergency care (in a hospital). This means that if one is severely injured out in the wild they usually have at most an hour before their chance of survival drops dramatically.

Scott made the right decision and the fact that Greer survived unharmed was an unrealistic, never going to happen, isn't possible, there is no way dramatic contrivance. Now will Greer likely blame Scott some for his decision, probably given that SGU's drama is soapy.

[Blackhole]

Noted.

But if your commanding officer think he had it coming it must be more complex then allowing his emotions to take hold.

As for inciting, it was a suggestion. As shown in ''Justice'' if Greer want's to get something done he will get to it. And his men will back his play. He did however listen to cooler heads as he should. As for his actions in ''Justice'' he was reacting to a basic kangaroo court in progress.

I have found Greer to be confrontational when it warrants, but controlled when Telford arrested him he did allow himself to be lead away. Greer shows no evidence to being undisciplined. As for him having issues with Scott I highly doubt that occurring. Greer is less hothead then expected after all. When Riley was pestering him after his traumatic day did he get aggressive with him, or smack him around like an uncontrollable psychopath that some people keep saying he is.

No, he did not.

Greer is not a perfect man, but from what I have seen he is a damn good soldier.

I agree with your assessment of Greer.

[jamaica2099]

From us (a viewer's point of view) it was either the wrong or right decision.

From Scott's point of view. It was the right decision.

Nuff said.

[Daro]

Destiny is under a military command. The military are in charge and every decision regardless of the circumstances is always a military situation whether made in battle conditions or not.

SGU is also a TV show where the circumstances are contrived to create dramatic tension. In any similar real world scenario to the tunnel collapse Greer would have been killed. And if he had survived the crush injuries from tons of rock and dirt would have soon killed him. As you remember they were stranded on the planet and Destiny’s medical facilities primitives as they are were not immediately available. In emergency medicine there is something called the Golden Hour. It is the length of time individuals with life threatening injuries are expected to survive without advanced emergency care (in a hospital). This means that if one is severely injured out in the wild they usually have at most an hour before their chance of survival drops dramatically.

Scott made the right decision and the fact that Greer survived unharmed was an unrealistic dramatic contrivance. Now will Greer likely blame Scott some for his decision, probably, given SGU tends to be soapy.

Well said, and I agree. In almost any real life situation, Greer would not have survived. To believe that the collapse would not have continued to get worse as Greer dug himself out of that column of stone is one too many miracles. I wish that the show had consulted with a geologist or a structural engineer so that the way they made the tunnel collapse could have given us some reason to say "Ok, Greer was lucky, but it was believable."

I also agree that the ship is, whether we like it or not, a military operation. Even if the ship were to come under the leadership of a civvie like Wray or Rush (god help them all; Rush is amazing, but his sarcastic nature doesn't inspire much in the category of morale,) the military personnel would still need a command structure and would constantly need to be ready for action. Destiny is a war-zone, pure and simple. You never know when flying razor-blade bugs, blue aliens, or some other crisis will require the skills and expertise that only the military can provide.