'Life' (109) General Discussion

[Jper]

Soap: Bad (i have a son! chole is sleeping around!)

Who/What is this "chole" you are speaking off? I've never seen "chole".

[Deevil]

Right now, I'm very much leaning towards you failing to communicate. Using two different definitions of the same word and treating them as if they were identical is symptomatic of some big semantics problems. I stand by my original assertions.

And that was something about woodchucks and butternut pumpkins - right? .

*****

Onto other things.

Erm, I know I'm not a mod and I am probably overstepping my bounds - but I didn't realise that we were here to educate each other on how to create an argument. This is not an academic or professional setting, we are here to have a good time and debate opinions. Can anyone remember what an opinion is?

It's not a fact. So all this speaking of what is true and false and factual... really has no place here. Unless you are claiming the Chloe is really Sam Carter in disguise, and then you could argue that being false.

But opinions aren't false. They are opinions. Interpretations of the show aren't false, they are interpretations. There is a great essay called Death of the Author by Roland Barthes and it essentially discusses how when we consume (read/watch) a text we bring our own baggage to it. By that I mean, our own understanding and our own emotional connection. We unpack the text by how we understand the world. Essentially, we re-write the text, thus 'killing' the author.

This unpacking is not wrong, it is not right either. It is just our personal truth.

For the sake of all of us here who want to discuss the episode without being told you're wrong or that your argument is false or not presented in a way that a particular poster wants it to be - can we just stop the insanity and enjoy these boards for what they are. A fun, casual place to discuss the show, not a university where we are about to present our dissertation. Speaking for myself, I still have nightmares about my first dissertation, I don't wanna go there again .

Jeebus.

Now I believe we were discussing the episode "Life". I really liked how we are finding reasons why some of our characters want to return home. For example, Scott and Camile have a reason to get home, and I believe they'll really work towards it. But when you have people like Rush - who doesn't seem like he wants too, and Young who doesn't know what he wants... I believe it could be rather difficult.

[Blackbow]

Blackbow's Review: Stargate Universe: "Life"

On the whole, I enjoyed "Life". It was good to see more of what goes on aboard the Destiny on a day-to-day basis. I approve of the fitness regime, and Scott's a great choice to lead it. It was also nice to see Greer letting off steam without someone getting injured (loved the scene with Park and TJ..."how do you cope with stress?" "I read"... Yeah, right )

I have to say I was not surprised that Telford was at the communications terminal - again! I get the feeling he really wants to be on the Destiny (maybe that's why he hates Young so much - simple jealousy?) It was good to see Telford getting his come-uppance, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't his body he was in at the time...

Finally, they show us some more of the ship itself!! It's about time we found out some more about it - especially since these guys could be onboard for years... What's going on with the chair, and how did Rush come to the conclusion it was similar to the Ancient database downloaders, rather than a control chair like Atlantis, Proclarush Taonas and the Antarctic outpost all had?

I also really enjoyed TJ's psychiatric evaluations. My two favourites were her first (the hydro-whingeologist Franklin - SGU's answer to Kavanaugh?) - her response to his tirade was great ("So you're coping okay then!") and the aforementioned one with Park - and Park and Greer were "reading" again at the end of the episode, too...

I gotta admit, I was kinda expecting the Scott "revelation", especially since they included the scene with the priest in the teaser . It was nice, however, to see that he was prepared to give up all his Air Force income to help with Matthew Jr.

What the h*ll is going on with Rush? He finds the chair and decides it needs using, but Young isn't prepared to allow it. Rush complains and is offered the chance to volunteer for the job but refuses... so he lies about information in the database? I can kind of see his argument about increasing productivity, but (again) I don't think his methods are anywhere near sensible...

Finally, this episode's main issue: yep, you guessed it - the bodyswapping thing. I find this easily the most confusing thing about Universe, and the most thought-provoking from a moral standpoint. Firstly, it's confusing trying to keep track of who's "hosting" whom. Secondly, there is the moral issue that body-swapping has raised (certainly here on GW).

Whilst I have no problem with TPTB showing intimate scenes involving same gender or different gender couples per se, I am not comfortable with the whole body-swapping issue. Like a number of others, I feel that the fact that in some situations your (the general "your" ) body could be used by someone else to sleep with someone, get drunk, etc., is frankly deeply worrying.

Personally, I would never volunteer to be a "host" - even if it's not me in the body, it's my DNA if anything intimate happens... and arguments about contraception, etc are kinda pointless, as you can still conceive whilst on the pill, and no contraception is 100% proof against conception (except "No" ).

In conclusion, a good episode. We find out more about some of the other characters and more about the Destiny, too. There are a number of funny moments (Eli talking to Scott comes to mind, as does TJ in her psych evaluations), and some more serious moments. (I have to say that it was good to hear that Camille's partner is prepared to wait for her. Nice, also, to find out they've been together for twelve years - Fair play!).

In my opinion, SGU is getting better - I'm looking forward to the rest of the season.

[amconway]

For the sake of all of us here who want to discuss the episode without being told you're wrong or that your argument is false or not presented in a way that a particular poster wants it to be - can we just stop the insanity and enjoy these boards for what they are. A fun, casual place to discuss the show, not a university where we are about to present our dissertation. Speaking for myself, I still have nightmares about my first dissertation, I don't wanna go there again .

Yes!

[Girlbot]

I found the idea of memory seepage from the stones a rather interesting concept. This in itself could turn out to be a most unique direction to take. With trying to figure out how the Destiny works, and adjusting to life on the ship, encountering experiences outside of their realm of knowledge, and having to also now put the emotions felt by others and the memories evoked by use of the stones, the psychological part of the show just ramped up quite a notch. Love to see where it heads.

[Saquist]

Dude, Chloe has sex with one person. I'd hardly call that 'sleeping around'.

Deevil, remember Chloe is all distraught at her boyfriend cheating on her with a best friend but she's already sexing it up with Scott so what exactly is she upset about, that he did it first? I find human relational behavior so hypocritical.

Interesting. Your original argument was:

You gone from that to:



In your original argument, you're going by explicit words. Now you're claiming that we should deciphering his intent rather than his words. You've contradicted yourself again, do you realize that

It is interesting isn't it?
The first contradiction was not effectively real but perceived.
You have made many assumptions this is one them but just because things appear are not how they actually are.

For example:
In that post I'm analyzing your deciphering not mine. You were being corrected because your assumption is that the word, if used, automatically must mean a certain intent. Your assumption was wrong there as it is wrong now as I have not deciphered anything but what he said, not his intent.

This is, lets say the 14-teenth time you've made this sort of intent mistakes inn the words of others. I believe at this is a example of conversational projecting. In essence your see the words and you associate a an intent that yourself would mean in the same situation, instead of being literal. Even when you used the definitions such as with "pejorative" you assumed it was both disapproval and contempt. It was as though you thought that both were present in the definition that they were both fair game comparison to my statements. They weren't.

For the third thime, you have yet to objectively establish that there was somehow a "calm" in this episode. I never argued that this is the "beginning" of a transition period either.

Indeed I have objectively established calm. I said there was no state of catastrophe. Thus a relative calm. The words relative and objective are not direct contradictions. Consider the truth of the fact, that if there was not a relative state of calm on the ship then the debate of routine would be mute. Is this true or false?

I said that this is a transition episode--functioning almost like a bridge. It's showing them in a transition period between their attempts to get home and survive disasters to focusing on their life on the ship and the brewing power struggle between the military and the scientists.

Yes, I know your position.
I saw no beginning thus the transition is ineffective for me.

By the way, this isn't the first Stargate episode to start in media res. Therefore they are not showing the beginning of this transition period and I never claimed that they did. Now if you don't like such a writing style, that's your opinion.

I postulated the lack of a beginning is an ineffective use of a transition thus the transition shouldn't exist and thus a beginning. Either way an abrupt transition or an abrupt beginning is poor writing.

From the beginning, Col. Young has been conducting meetings to apprise so the crew can apprise him of things that have been happening and so that he can assign tasks. This was established in "Darkness."

I concur.
Briefings have nothing to do with productive task unless assignments are given. (to all: The continued use of generalities)

Incorrect on your part. Your original argument was they were doing nothing. Waiting on the edge of asphyxiation is not nothing nor is it unimportant or trivial.

It is nothing.
You fail to modify your understanding my general statement

Your logic and semantics here are greatly flawed. Your argument is that they did nothing because their actions failed to make a difference. Did they take action to prevent their fate? Yes, absolutely they did. Therefore they did do SOMETHING. Did their actions ultimately make a difference in their fate? No. Objectively speaking, doing nothing (taking no action) and having their actions fail to ultimately make a difference (meaning they did take action) are two completely different ideas. You are using two distinctly completely different definitions of the word "nothing" and treating them as if they were identical. Again, incorrect semantics and logic.

I stand corrected.
I meant to say nothing they did made a difference.
Yet the majority of the crew still had nothing to do.

Now you're equivocating. Your original argument is that nothing happened in the current time line. That's not exactly true since they have a cure to a deadly pathogen nobody knew they had contracted. That is not a non-event, nor is it trivial. And very pivotal events certainly did happen in the alternate timelines. Again, that is not nothing.

I mention nothing of trivialities. In any case it's irrelevant.
The majority of the crew had nothing to do to say nothing of this last statement of yours approaching dogma.

Again, you're contradicting yourself. They are definitely doing more than they were before: PT. This was not being done before "Life." It will increase their overall fitness and make them more nimble in tactical situations. It's definitely a plus in terms of productivity. So yes they are doing more than before.

Conceded. They are now as a larger group doing more than before.
I failed to be consistent.

Purely your opinion.

I knew what it was but did you?

Your use of the word "modify" in the context of this sentence makes little sense to me. As for the crew's safety, it's been established in "Earth" that they are not safe as long as they are onboard the Destiny. That's Col. Telford's assessment of the situation and he's definitely correct. That's why the crew is trying to get home, remember?

As you did not understand the use of the word "modify" then clearly you need to inquire further rather than blundering on through a point that you haven't comprehended. I will wait on your comprehension to catch up or abandon the rebuttal for risk enabling debate in the midst that incomprehension

I know very well what the Straw Man Fallacy is. I'm working off of very concrete objective terminology.

Some of your terminology has been concrete and most literal. Not all. I don't know about you working of a "very" concrete objective terminology. In this case, I would say yes.

No, you claimed that the episode was "calm" and you didn't clarify yourself.

I can't force you to accept the clarification, ColdFuzz.

Actually it was. Camille Wray and Carl Strom were talking and she very clearly stated that Rush has tried to take over the ship.

I acknowledge that but I don't think that equates to FULL WEIGHT of PERIL.
A remark to a loved one is only mutterings and speculations. FULL WEIGHT of PERIL. Essentially this means there is a clear and present danger related between those in control and those subjected to that control.

Really, one does not have to go even this far as clear and present danger. But there has been no resolution.

No, not by a long shot. Franklin's anger towards the military personnel is not just telling us about the rift between the scientists and the military, but very obviously SHOWING us. There is nothing implied about how the ship is factionalized, especially when a scientist like Franklin addresses TJ as "your people." Camille Wray and Carl Strom even acknowledged there were two factions and Strom suggested she start a third--her faction.

Thus the schism. Why is he cooperating?
Why is anyone cooperating.

Do you think the scientists' resentment materialized out of nowhere? Neither he nor Volker have been happy with the way the military have been running the ship and that was shown in "Water."

I did not say the resentment materialized out of nowhere.
But it has not been the focal point either.

For the record, whether or not I have actually and successfully addressed the objective facts of the arguments is not up to you.

It is up to me.
I'm the one you're in discussion with. Obviously both our points of view are important. More importantly you dictated your problems to me granting me permission to rule over those issues.

This is all your opinion, which is fine. But to objectively claim that there is no plot when there was one, is logically incorrect--again. Now you may not have liked the plot or have even seen it but that doesn't change the fact that it did, in truth, exist in the episode.

Deevil says this is a character driven saga that it doesn't need a plot.
I say there is no plot in most of episodes because it's not establishing a goal and resolution. You say there is a plot...



disapproval

noun
possession or expression of an unfavorable opinion

Disapproval is a word with inherently negative connotations. Your original argument is that you were being neutral. If you were truly neutral shouldn't be using an abundance of terminology that is inherently negative, right?

You'd think you would have got me here.
I have chosen to make an evaluation
I cannot give an evaluation with out adopting some standards. I do not use bias in my evaluations which you did indeed accuse. I am neutral. My likes and dislikes (as you said it) are not coming to bear. Your analysis of words lacks context.

Right now, I'm very much leaning towards you failing to communicate. Using two different definitions of the same word and treating them as if they were identical is symptomatic of some big semantics problems. I stand by my original assertions.

I stand by all that has not been proven in error.
It's entirely possible. Communication is not always easy. I have failings and I acknowledge, address, confront, learn and apologize for them. It is the literal meaning of the word "saquist" ~To be in error

...My constant reminder.

[pjt]

Actually, SG-1's ninth episode was 'Brief Candle', where Jack gets infected with nanites and ages rapidly. While not as gripping as Thor's Hammer, it still had more tension and action in it than 'Life', which one could almost skip and have missed nothing important.

I'm sorry, but Brief Candle was the episode that almost made me stop watching SG-1. While the concept is interesting, the episode was about one thing: waiting for the big red reset button. OMG O'Neill is gonna die, but just until the very end, when we find out that O'Neill is not gonna die. Now let me see, if I somehow missed that episode what would I have missed? Err... Well, I'm not so sure...

While Life was all new information about the characters of SGU, Brief Candle was about about that O'Neill is not gonna die, but we'll pretend he's in grave danger anyway.

[pjt]

Deevil, remember Chloe is all distraught at her boyfriend cheating on her with a best friend but she's already sexing it up with Scott so what exactly is she upset about, that he did it first? I find human relational behavior so hypocritical.

I hate it passionately when people tend not hear things that don't coincide with their prejudice.

It was Chloe's ex-boyfriend.

CELINA: Hey.

ARMSTRONG: Hey.

CELINA: So is Chloe really OK?

ARMSTRONG: She'll be fine.

CELINA: I wish she'd call me back.

ARMSTRONG: I'm sure she misses you. I ... I think she's just having a hard time dealing right now.

CELINA: It's just ... I really need to talk to her, you know?

ARMSTRONG: You mean about the fact that you're sleeping with her boyfriend?

CELINA: What?

ARMSTRONG: It's pretty obvious you guys are together.

CELINA: Look, Josh and Chloe broke up.

ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I don't think she ever would have suspected that you're the real reason why.

CELINA (indignantly): I don't know who you ...

ARMSTRONG (angrily): How could you do this to me?

CELINA: To you?!

(Chloe, more than a little drunk, grabs the girl's jacket and shakes her.)

ARMSTRONG: You're supposed to be her best friend!

And if this is "sleeping around", I'm sure the people who are the loudest in dissing SGU, are those who are frustrated like heck, since they can't "sleep around".

[pjt]

Deevil, remember Chloe is all distraught at her boyfriend cheating on her with a best friend but she's already sexing it up with Scott so what exactly is she upset about, that he did it first? I find human relational behavior so hypocritical.

And just one little quip: I'm absolutely sure, that if it was you who thought you had one day to live, found someone you felt at least something for each other, then you simply had told her to get lost, and continued to polish your chastity belt.
(God, I wish you weren't ashamed of your age... "Sleeping-around"... "hypocritical"... )

[Saquist]

I hate it passionately when people tend not hear things that don't coincide with their prejudice.

It was Chloe's ex-boyfriend.

It was definitely an error on my part.

And if this is "sleeping around", I'm sure the people who are the loudest in dissing SGU, are those who are frustrated like heck, since they can't "sleep around".

You'd be wrong. I am satisfied to have remained clean as respects to my religion and God. When I marry it will be the first time I engage in sex. I know that it's is right because it protects me, the person I love and any child that comes forth from that relationship. I would be honored to have the privilege to offering a guaranteed commitment of loyalty to my love because I know what love is.

And just one little quip: I'm absolutely sure, that if it was you who thought you had one day to live, found someone you felt at least something for each other, then you simply had told her to get lost, and continued to polish your chastity belt.
(God, I wish you weren't ashamed of your age... "Sleeping-around"... "hypocritical"... )

You may have no doubts but I have my convictions and I know the foundation they are laid is sound. I'll stick to it because I acknowledge that such a moment is inherently spiritual not sexual. I would be in prayer not engaging in distractions, hoping that my life that I had lived had met expectation.

[pjt]

:clears throat:
Anyway...

[Yusagi]

While Life was all new information about the characters of SGU, Brief Candle was about about that O'Neill is not gonna die, but we'll pretend he's in grave danger anyway.

Besides the chair, none of the new information was really of any consequence. While, yes, we all knew Jack wasn't going to die, how does that impact anything? Did anyone really believe that the crew of the Destiny would suffocate? Or burn in the sun? Did anyone actually think Scott was going to die? The point isn't 'real' danger (because no matter how many times they say 'no one is safe', in reality, the top billed characters will always be safe until they're done playing with their storylines), but suspending viewer knowledge, and having fun with whatever danger the episode provides.

Brief Candle (though its been later corrected to Thor's Hammer) had a danger and a mystery to it. Life had nothing along those lines but the false promise of a planet, the possibility that maybe someone wil one day use the chair and could possibly be endangered (but not really if its a main character who still has shelf-life), and the vague allusion that Telford could possibly snatch up Young's wayward wife.

[PG15]

Besides the chair, none of the new information was really of any consequence.

Yet.

Besides, what would you count as consequence? Would it count as that if a scene in this episode provided more motivation for a character to do something later on? Or does it have to be a major plot point later like, say...the tablet from Full Circle, or the Hoffan drug?

For instance, both Wray's boss and Sharon told Wray to step up and take charge on the Destiny, to an extent. If, later, she does try to take over, would these little scenes become more important? Also, Scott now has a son back home whom he believes needs a daddy (or, at least, he now has family again); would it not provide him with a much greater motivation to get home than before, when he really had no reason to? Wouldn't his character develop a bit now because of this revelation?

Of course, we don't know if any of this will come to fruition, but that is the whole basis of arc-based storytelling. Hopefully they will.

IMHO SGU has been doing pretty well on that front. Episodes like Time, where Eli professed his feelings for Chloe, and his escapades with the Kino, as well as Rush's reveal that he wants ascension, would all be much less impactful it there hadn't been as much build up up to that point. Eli's crush on Chloe is made clear time and again, so his confession didn't feel like it came out of nowhere like, say, in The Shrine with McKay and Keller. Also, Eli's played with the Kino (and annoyed people as a result) plenty of times in the past episodes, so it made perfect sense that he'd be passionate about keeping this going even when his life was in danger. And Rush - his obsession with the ship and the Ancients was his whole story in almost ever episode; his yearning for ascension is no big surprise when all the pieces of the puzzle that is Nick Rush is put together.

Life is yet another step in this continued build up. We also got to touch base with some of the secondaries; we know that Franklin is pissed off more than ever; we know Volker is nearing his snapping point; we know how Park is relieving her stress and keeping up her sunny disposition; and we now know that Spencer is gonna go ape**** on someone's ass very, very soon. From this point, the writers can use these well-established characters in more charged stories, thanks to that foundation.

Like say, is the mid-season 3 parter.

If we suddenly see Franklin punching some military guy, we wouldn't say "what the hell is his problem?!" Or, if we see Volker having a nervous breakdown, we wouldn't go "where that come from?"

Plus, with all the crap Young has had to put up with in this and other episodes, I wouldn't be surprised if he snapped soon. Yet, if he were participating in regular SG1/SGA style adventuring, having him suddenly snap in one episode would be completely out of character.

It's like that SG1 episode "Shade of Grey". Jack's acting like a douche and immediately you know he's up to something covert. If it had been build up in the previous episodes, then it might seemed more genuine and powerful. As is, it was an interesting episode, but nothing more. It rates pretty low on my list of favorite episodes.

Another point I want to make: the whole story of Rush and the chair in this episode is a perfect example of the difference between SG1/SGA and SGU. The older series would've had Sam/McKay talk a bit about the dangers of it, and then promptly saying that they might be able to circumvent that with a bit of technobabble and patchwork. Then, midpoint through the episode (if not sooner), Jack/Shep sits in the chair and all kinds of crazy **** happens and there's big action and big danger, like the chair is gonna mess up Jack/Shep's heads or something. At the end, they live, and are all pretty happy. The chair then goes on to be forgotten until it's needed to solve a problem, after which it will probably be destroyed.

In SGU, they've postponed all that to dedicated this first bit to the psychological effects of the chair and what one man's obsession with it can make him do. Rush wanted info from that chair, but as we saw, he wasn't all keen on giving up his life trying to find the info that he'd only have a use for if he were alive. Thus, he preyed upon the hopes and desperation of the crew and made a story about another Icarus-like planet, again showing how much importance he places on other people vs. the "greater good", and also showing how trusting the other people were of HIM when the lie is so much more preferable to the truth, which in turn showed how desperate they were.

At the end, the kind-hearted and honest Eli came through and broke the grave news to an already-stressed Young, and he and Rush had a pretty heated argument where Young went straight for the jugular: essentially calling Rush a coward and a hypocrit for what he tried to do.

For me, that was fascinating to watch. Bonus: there's plenty more a-comin'!

[Yusagi]

Okay, it's possible the plot points could one day amount to something interesting (or the plans could fall flat on their face, and be completely uninteresting even when they do come to fruitation), but, IMO...possible future plot points are only acceptable if there's a relevant current plot point to go with it. Which was nonexistent this episode, with the exception of the violent soldier--which I have absolutely zero emotional investment in, and quite frankly have been given no reason to care if he gets airlocked.

I can't watch a show for the hope that one day things will come together and be interesting. Eventually, there must actually be stuff for now. Nine, being right before the mid-season should already have some of the 'eventually'.

[PG15]

Okay, it's possible the plot points could one day amount to something interesting (or the plans could fall flat on their face, and be completely uninteresting even when they do come to fruitation),

It doesn't matter if it's uninteresting. The events of this episode would still have consequences; you just won't enjoy it.

but, IMO...possible future plot points are only acceptable if there's a relevant current plot point to go with it. Which was nonexistent this episode, with the exception of the violent soldier--which I have absolutely zero emotional investment in, and quite frankly have been given no reason to care if he gets airlocked.

In SGU, the character development IS the plot, or perhaps takes it place. For instance, I would call the relationship between Eli and Chloe to be a plot thread. The advancement of the "plot" is basically the advancement of how the characters interact, which then affects how the events on the ship develop. There might not have been a clear beginning, middle, or end to this episode in terms of "our characters get in trouble, they get deeper into trouble, they find a way out, they get out, they go home", but there was clear progression for a number of characters in how they perceive their situation.

It was a pretty typical arc-based episode, actually, and that's been pretty rare in Stargate. It doesn't feel like it has a plot because it's deeply entrenched in a much bigger, overarching plot that is constantly referenced. This is pretty new to Stargate, as past arcs are usually featured in a handful of episodes where the arc is suddenly advanced by huge amounts, and then stalled for a while before the next arc episode. SGU is smoothing it out by having every episode advance the arc a bit.

I can't watch a show for the hope that one day things will come together and be interesting. Eventually, there must actually be stuff for now. Nine, being right before the mid-season should already have some of the 'eventually'.

Well, for me things have already started coming together, and they've come together since Earth. The various character threads that were built up in the previous episodes began evolving and sometimes intertwining.

But I guess that's more about personal preference in regard to arc-based storytelling. I'm very happy with the rate of progression we're seeing.

This reminds me of the last few episodes of Avatar: The Last Airbender's 2nd season, which IMHO was some of the best TV I've ever seen. The episodes then started to run together with each adding to the arc rather than having a clear beginning, middle, and end, and it was basically a huge, 4 hour epic that built up to an incredible season finale. I loved it so very much.