'Justice' (110) General Discussion

[Deevil]

O'Neill said that Young is in charge but in reality, being so far away, there's absolutely nothing they could do if every civilian simply refused to follow Young's lead.

Well yes, there is that too . Although, I do have to wonder if Jack could see the person Young really is, would he still leave him in charge?

I want the civs to stop following his orders though... so badly do I want to see that.

[EllieVee]

Well yes, there is that too . Although, I do have to wonder if Jack could see the person Young really is, would he still leave him in charge?

I wouldn't and I assume that Telford didn't complain.

I want the civs to stop following his orders though... so badly do I want to see that.

The workers united will never be defeated!

[Stewart5]

As a man from a military family, I like soldiers. I hate to see the way the civilians act towards the military on SGU.

HOWEVER(before you two jump down my throat!!!), in this case, it angers me even more that the military commanders have put the civilians in a situation where they act like this. Nothing the military has doen, or the way it has treated the civvies, is becoming of military personnel.
Young's inconsitancy when dealing with trouble doesn't help. Many people have said that by throwing Rush of the ship, he is making life better for the crew. I disagree.
think about this; Spencer(name? cannae remember) causes havoc during the evacuation to the shuttle. What happens? greer lays him out, but nothing more is said. He then steals and hordes food, (Imo, one of the worst crime sin such a situation and TOTALLY unbecoming of any Marine). He gets a telling off and the food taken back. He treats civilians like dirt, and even begins bullying one and assualts him. All that happens in Young braces him against a wall a tells him off.
Young ignores advice from the smartest and most knowledgable man on the ship and continues to have people explore and turn systems on, using up power, potentially risking all their deaths. (thankfully Destiny itself saved them)
Young, when accused of murder(WE know he didn't, but at the time the crew thought he did) is given a fair trial.
Rush sets Young up as a murder(Yes, very, very unfair and highly imoral) and is booted off the ship, not by a group vote or a jury etc, but by the highest ranking military officer without a word to anyone else.

What Young has now done is create an atmosphere where the civilians will feel second class, and live with the constant thought that the military will just kick out any civilian who puts a foot wrong, where as the military will get away with whatever they want with just a slap on the wrist.

[Saquist]

I would be reluctant to make that kind of conclusion. Sure he only cares about himself but to go as far as call him the bad guy is a stretch. He doesn't find pleasure in seeing people dying. He is just self-centered.

Every story has an antagonist.
These are typically the bad guy...

[morrismike]

O'Neill said that Young is in charge but in reality, being so far away, there's absolutely nothing they could do if every civilian simply refused to follow Young's lead.

They would all die. Without Youngs leadership they will starve (the military folks will manage). If the members of the crew won't do their jobs they would be put off (starting with least valuable first to make an impression on the others). If Rush was put off as a threat none of them are safe. While not liking the military is ok, you don't feed or reward sedition.

I think some of you need to serve in the military to understand. Life isn't always a soap opera.

[Stewart5]

Don't condescend. Life in the military is nothing like it is described in SGU. Young being in charge is not a healthy choice for the crew. Sure, the Marines and USAF aboard like him God only knows why, because as a commander he is fail. He so far has proven unable to comprehend that things on the ship may not work as they normally would. He can't go around ordering civlians what to do just because he has a gun. It will not lead to anythign other than a split down the crew. and the military can't survive without the civilians either, so I'd like to see them start spacing civilians, see what happens to them. They are a bunch of Jarheads and knuckle draggers on the destiny. Without the civilian scientists, they would have died long before now.

[EllieVee]

They would all die. Without Youngs leadership they will starve (the military folks will manage). If the members of the crew won't do their jobs they would be put off (starting with least valuable first to make an impression on the others). If Rush was put off as a threat none of them are safe. While not liking the military is ok, you don't feed or reward sedition.

I think some of you need to serve in the military to understand. Life isn't always a soap opera.

Yes, they would survive without Young's leadership because they're surviving without it now, though you're correct in thinking that none of them will feel safe once it's known what Young has done. Your scenario condemns the people who are actually keeping everyone alive. How long do you think the military would last on a ship they know nothing about?

I think perhaps you need to realise that the military is simply a civilian support mechanism. Nothing more.

[morrismike]

As a man from a military family, I like soldiers. I hate to see the way the civilians act towards the military on SGU.

HOWEVER(before you two jump down my throat!!!), in this case, it angers me even more that the military commanders have put the civilians in a situation where they act like this. Nothing the military has doen, or the way it has treated the civvies, is becoming of military personnel.
Young's inconsitancy when dealing with trouble doesn't help. Many people have said that by throwing Rush of the ship, he is making life better for the crew. I disagree.
think about this; Spencer(name? cannae remember) causes havoc during the evacuation to the shuttle. What happens? greer lays him out, but nothing more is said. He then steals and hordes food, (Imo, one of the worst crime sin such a situation and TOTALLY unbecoming of any Marine). He gets a telling off and the food taken back. He treats civilians like dirt, and even begins bullying one and assualts him. All that happens in Young braces him against a wall a tells him off.
Young ignores advice from the smartest and most knowledgable man on the ship and continues to have people explore and turn systems on, using up power, potentially risking all their deaths. (thankfully Destiny itself saved them)
Young, when accused of murder(WE know he didn't, but at the time the crew thought he did) is given a fair trial.
Rush sets Young up as a murder(Yes, very, very unfair and highly imoral) and is booted off the ship, not by a group vote or a jury etc, but by the highest ranking military officer without a word to anyone else.

What Young has now done is create an atmosphere where the civilians will feel second class, and live with the constant thought that the military will just kick out any civilian who puts a foot wrong, where as the military will get away with whatever they want with just a slap on the wrist.

Just what onerous commands is he dishing out?
1. No one sits in the chair, except for Rush. This turned out to be good advice.
2. Don't eat all our food at one sitting.
3. You're going to risk your lives and help us get ice. Wait it was the military folks that did that.
4. The decision to not allow Jacks scientists to blow the ship up on a 1 in a 100 chance of getting home.
5. The decision to maroon a crew member who put all of their lives at risk/framed someone for murder/coerced someone into giving their live sitting in a chair.
6. Monitor untrustworthy crewmembers and their actions vs. just locking them up.
Is there other terrible commands he's given out?

There may be a time with the vital functions (food, air, protection, discipline, etc) all run on auto and the ship does not require a commander but that time is well into the future. There is a reason ships haves captains.

[EllieVee]

Which Young is not.

4. The decision to not allow Jacks scientists to blow the ship up on a 1 in a 100 chance of getting home.

I seem to remember Rush organising that. Young had no say in the matter.

[morrismike]

Don't condescend. Life in the military is nothing like it is described in SGU. Young being in charge is not a healthy choice for the crew. Sure, the Marines and USAF aboard like him God only knows why, because as a commander he is fail. He so far has proven unable to comprehend that things on the ship may not work as they normally would. He can't go around ordering civlians what to do just because he has a gun. It will not lead to anythign other than a split down the crew. and the military can't survive without the civilians either, so I'd like to see them start spacing civilians, see what happens to them. They are a bunch of Jarheads and knuckle draggers on the destiny. Without the civilian scientists, they would have died long before now.

People need to do their jobs on that ship and I don't recall orders being given at the end of a gun barrel yet. They will be spending the rest of their lives onboard and need to get with the program. If everyone did what they were supposed to then the need for a leader barking orders goes away.

[morrismike]

Which Young is not.



I seem to remember Rush organising that. Young had no say in the matter.

Young set the tone by objecting and had Rush get involved to protect the crew.

[Stewart5]

As a man from a military family, I like soldiers. I hate to see the way the civilians act towards the military on SGU.

HOWEVER(before you two jump down my throat!!!), in this case, it angers me even more that the military commanders have put the civilians in a situation where they act like this. Nothing the military has doen, or the way it has treated the civvies, is becoming of military personnel.
Young's inconsitancy when dealing with trouble doesn't help. Many people have said that by throwing Rush of the ship, he is making life better for the crew. I disagree.
think about this; Spencer(name? cannae remember) causes havoc during the evacuation to the shuttle. What happens? greer lays him out, but nothing more is said. He then steals and hordes food, (Imo, one of the worst crime sin such a situation and TOTALLY unbecoming of any Marine). He gets a telling off and the food taken back. He treats civilians like dirt, and even begins bullying one and assualts him. All that happens in Young braces him against a wall a tells him off.
Young ignores advice from the smartest and most knowledgable man on the ship and continues to have people explore and turn systems on, using up power, potentially risking all their deaths. (thankfully Destiny itself saved them)
Young, when accused of murder(WE know he didn't, but at the time the crew thought he did) is given a fair trial.
Rush sets Young up as a murder(Yes, very, very unfair and highly imoral) and is booted off the ship, not by a group vote or a jury etc, but by the highest ranking military officer without a word to anyone else.

What Young has now done is create an atmosphere where the civilians will feel second class, and live with the constant thought that the military will just kick out any civilian who puts a foot wrong, where as the military will get away with whatever they want with just a slap on the wrist.

I refer you to this ^ and all points I made about Young here. I refuse to repeat myself.

Just what onerous commands is he dishing out?
1. No one sits in the chair, except for Rush. This turned out to be good advice.

yes, a decision everybody BUT Rush would have made. this was not a difficult, leadership-role decision to make.

2. Don't eat all our food at one sitting.

I refer you to the above comment. Common sense, easy decision any 2nd Lieu straight outta Sandhurst, or any ONE of the civilians could have made, Rush, Wray, the Senator(before he died)

3. You're going to risk your lives and help us get ice. Wait it was the military folks that did that.

The military did that because they had no choice. The civlians weren't offered a chance to go along and help, because there was two suits and Young made the STUPID decision to take along the two senior officers aboard instead. Oh, very smart, risk the lives of the senior command cadre. Yeah, thats the choice a good commander makes. [/sarcasm]

4. The decision to not allow Jacks scientists to blow the ship up on a 1 in a 100 chance of getting home.

Erm....you may wanna watch that again, because it's RUSH that stops that from happening, not Young, who is back on Earth.....yeah, Rush saved 'em.

5. The decision to maroon a crew member who put all of their lives at risk/framed someone for murder/coerced someone into giving their live sitting in a chair.

Eh, marooned a civilian who had done as much to ensure survival as possible.

6. Monitor untrustworthy crewmembers and their actions vs. just locking them up.

And look what this resulted in. The growth of a malcontent who's influence began to negatively affect the crew. Great choice there, I must say. What a way to keep discipline. And also so very constant. Punishes the civlian proffessor but not the soldier? Very fair. What a way to win the crew's respect!

There is a reason ships haves captains

To keep order, to lead, to inspire, to guide, to command. Erm, Young can make the easy choices, but he isn't proving inspiring, he seems unable to make a choice first time around, he doesn't command the respect of everyone aboard, and he most certainly does not have the qualities a real life coloenl would have(not any of the one's I have met)

[EllieVee]

People need to do their jobs on that ship and I don't recall orders being given at the end of a gun barrel yet. They will be spending the rest of their lives onboard and need to get with the program. If everyone did what they were supposed to then the need for a leader barking orders goes away.

RUSH: All I ask is that you check with me before issuing orders.

Sensible and doesn't actually prevent the issuing of orders, it merely allows the issuing of orders that won't kill everyone because the person who has a clue has said, 'Sure, that won't kill everyone; by all means dial the stargate.'

Young: Check with you? No, see, you've got it backwards. If you're doing something, I wanna know what it is, and this is not a request.

A totally arseabout way of doing things.

[Deevil]

They would all die. Without Youngs leadership they will starve (the military folks will manage). If the members of the crew won't do their jobs they would be put off (starting with least valuable first to make an impression on the others). If Rush was put off as a threat none of them are safe. While not liking the military is ok, you don't feed or reward sedition.

I think some of you need to serve in the military to understand. Life isn't always a soap opera.

I think you have an elevated view of the military on SGU. They don't need Young because Young has yet to really make a decision.

Sedition is against a government. Unless you are suggesting that Young is a President, that word is a little misplaced. And yes, you could suggest that Rush was inciting a rebellion, but he wasn't doing that either. He was going about his business. He wasn't trying to take over.

And if you are suggesting that Young is a governing body, you are also suggesting that they are living in a military state with a tyrant. That in itself incites rebellion, especially from people who come from 'democratic' nations.

And in the end, perhaps you have to understand that many of us have a very real working knowledge of the military - and your constant cries otherwise do not facilitate any discussion...

[Stewart5]

I think you have an elevated view of the military on SGU. They don't need Young because Young has yet to really make a decision.

Sedition is against a government. Unless you are suggesting that Young is a President, that word is a little misplaced. And yes, you could suggest that Rush was inciting a rebellion, but he wasn't doing that either. He was going about his business. He wasn't trying to take over.

And if you are suggesting that Young is a governing body, you are also suggesting that they are living in a military state with a tyrant. That in itself incites rebellion, especially from people who come from 'democratic' nations.

And in the end, perhaps you have to understand that many of us have a very real working knowledge of the military - and your constant cries otherwise do not facilitate any discussion...

Well said, Deevil. The civilians have not come from a military background, so why should be expected to fall into line so quickly when they have NO knowledge of military porceedures?

And Ellie, good quotes. That does not inspire respect in a leader, unwillingness to listen or compromise. hecould easily have said something like

fine, doctor Rush. In return, I expect that any actionyou wish to take, you should also inform me

This way, he would have respected Rush's position and experiance, kept him onside, whilst also exercising his own command authority. This way he could have won respect from people, not alienated the chief scientist.

The military is not as inflexible or starched as you seem to think, morrismike.

Oh, and for the uninitiated, if your sick of having the likes of morrismike throw comments like

I think some of you need to serve in the military to understand. Life isn't always a soap opera.

at you, then drop in here.

this is where ex, existing and future military hang out and tlak, with civvies too. Feel free to ask us any questions you want, and we'll answer them without attitude or superiority.
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...ht=Garrowan5th