'Justice' (110) General Discussion

[PG15]

A group of thankfully dead or ascended people who spent much of their time creating weapons and viruses—what the hell sort of people do that as a hobby.

Us.

[natyanayaki]

Being completely and inexcusably ignorant of Stargate lore, the second half of what you said made little sense to me. I just know the Asgard are the little grey guys, righto?

Based on what little I know, I agree that the Ancients should be examined in SGU. Wouldn't Dr. Rush just have a complete field day if he got to talk to one? Still, they don't sound like the nicest people ever from what I've heard. But then again, neither are humans sometimes.
I'm all for bringing in aliens. Sure, SGU is a 'human' story. But aliens don't have to be incomprehensible. I don't want to see people with putty on otheir faces running around all the time, I like the idea of much more bizzare sentient beings, but there's a happy medium somewhere. Aliens that could not pass for human, who have differing physiology, but have human-like emotions in most regards. Like Christopher Johnson in District 9. Squid face, carapace, and all, you sympathized with him. More so than you could with his human co-star.

I know I wasn't clear. I mean, I'm not all that sad the Ancients are gone. They're portrayed as these awesome beings, blahblahblah...but I've not seen them that way. I brought up the Asgard as a comparison...a race I actually liked...and you are right they are the gray guys who look kinda like E.T. . And, don't beat yourself up. I'm not all that proficient about Stargate lore, I get so confused...hehe.

[Daro]

Us.

I thought the same thing when I read that too. XD

[natyanayaki]

Us.

True, and look at our planet. For all we know the Ancients had to create the Stargate because they kept destroying worlds...haha...

[Daro]

True, and look at our planet. For all we know the Ancients had to create the Stargate because they kept destroying worlds...haha...

That would be my thought. Before they ascended, they would have spread like maggots on a wound, consuming and growing and consuming and growing in a never ending cycle. Life would start to lose its point or value. I think I understand why Rush would want to find a way for mankind to ascend better now, just thinking of that.

[Saquist]

Which makes me wonder if the route they're on is actually the intended route or if it's changed for some reason. Or if the whole 'seeding life' thing is like that episode of SG-1 where the planet was going to be terraformed nevermind the people already there. The Ancients, it's all about them, so I can see them going 'That bit looks look for an in-ground swimming pool so whatever if the sand creatures die in the meantime.'

I don't have a low view of the ancients.

Well, from what I've seen of Jack, I don't think he would have left Rush on the planet. I know he's tried to save people, even when they are against him.

It's not the kind of show SG-1 was...but Jack in this SGU has already done that which Jack of SG-1 wouldn't do.

Us.

This is true.

I have a new juicy bit of speculation to throw out there for why Young marooned Rush.

I believe it was said in the first episode that the Destiny is following the route of an earlier Ancient ship that had seeded Stargates on habitable worlds. Apparently the Destiny was designed for colonization but the Ancients ascended. Destiny's projected route and the location of Stargates are stored in the ship's computer databanks. Rush probably has probably already accessed this information and knows where in space along Destiny's course are the planets with Stargates on them. All he needs to do is either go through the Stargate, or fly the ship or contact the aliens whose ship it belongs to and have them take him to one of the locations on or in orbit near the planets along Destiny's course and drops him off.

It would be improbable if the ship were operational.
It would be improbable if the ship were ancient
it would be improbable if Rush knew how to use the ship if it wasn't ancient.

It is probable that Rush already knows what the ship is and where it's from.
It is probable that Rush knows the path of the Destiny and the location of ships ahead of it.

Let’s look at the second two possibilities first.

Rush fixes the ship and flies it off to rejoin Destiny. I think this one is the least likely scenario as it would be a too easy and pat solution. SGU as shown it doesn’t like the quick fix.

I don't know about that.
The ship found them a planet with the right minerals for air.
in Light the ship cured the problem of power.
The ship cured the problem of water.

Rush will gain access to the ship and somehow contact the aliens who built it. With their help he will be taken to the Destiny. This would be the most interesting solution to employ. If they do go this route, I think contact would be brief and mysterious. The taste of the aliens’ contact they provide us would set the show up for a great new story arc that would probably be introduced and developed in the next season.

Interesting.

Going through the Stargate would probably be the easiest method to get him back. Since the Destiny is on a preprogrammed route with set times for stops, the approximate projected arrival times at each planet are in the ship’s computer. Rush would likely be aware of them. All he has to do to return, is gate to the next planet on Destiny’s course and wait for the team to come through the gate. I would be surprised if Rush as a precaution didn't always brings a portable DHD with him in his pack.

Was it me or did the ship look small enough to go through a gate?
I don't think Destiny stop at planets though.
I think Destiny drops to reconnect with the gate network since not only there are new gates being deposited but may also be tracking possible gates on the seeder ships.

Now for the juicy speculation:

Lets assume that Rush was aware of the schedule of Destiny’s future planet visits. Let us also assume that he declined to share this general information with others in order to give himself more power and control. Let us further assume that Eli on his own or better yet, under Colonel Young’s orders has found out this information. Learning and anticipating this schedule would be an extremely valuable bit of information to have. Foraging and other survival needs could be set up in advance. It is not much of a stretch that Young would have anticipated this need and asked Rush to look for it; he reports back and lies that he wasn’t able to access it. Since Young doesn’t trust Rush, it follows that he would ask Eli to see if he could find it and not tell Rush he was looking for it. Eli is a genius with computers, he could have either found the data himself or hacked into Rush’s encrypted files and found it that way.

I say the only stretch is Young.
Not by a bunch but a bit of one.
Young doesn't seem that...bright.

Young knows about the planet’s visit schedule. He knows that Rush is aware of it but doesn’t know that he and Eli are also aware of it. What if Young and Eli concoct a plan to very badly scare Rush by abandoning him on the planet. Young could have planned to beat him unconscious and leave. After knocking him out he checks Rush’s backpack to be certain he has brought a portable DHD device with him and departs (he probably knew that it was Rush’s standard practice to always do so). Young would know that Rush has the ingenuity to figure out that he can gate to the next planet along Destiny’s course and rejoin them. Furthermore he would know that marooning him on a desert planet without supplies would scare the living crap out of him but that the actual risk to his life would be small. The assumption being that the next stop for the Destiny was within Rush’s projected survival time. Young could plan this as an object lesson to teach him what the consequences will be if he doesn’t straighten up and become a team player.

hmmm.
That's a wild one.
The setup for this hasn't been good if they do this.
It would be good story if they did do that...but I still have to criticize the lack of setup.

[LtColCarter]

Indeed, as Young as said many times "These are the wrong people, in the wrong place" including himself.

Yuppers...I agree

It's not the kind of show SG-1 was...but Jack in this SGU has already done that which Jack of SG-1 wouldn't do.

I know SGU is nowhere in the same league (or dare I say galaxy) as SG-1. However, I've not seen Jack do anything that wasn't "Jack-ish." Can you provide an example?

[Saquist]

Yuppers...I agree



I know SGU is nowhere in the same league (or dare I say galaxy) as SG-1. However, I've not seen Jack do anything that wasn't "Jack-ish." Can you provide an example?

You thought the order to star-surf to dial the gate despite the damage to the ship's system's was an order Jack would normally give. He risked their lives with out any emanate peril forcing the action.

[Lahela]

You thought the order to star-surf to dial the gate despite the damage to the ship's system's was an order Jack would normally give. He risked their lives with out any emanate peril forcing the action.

I agree with you that Jack has been a bit... different. He seems quite blasé, which is not the Jack way IMO. I guess they're just writing him to fit what they need, which (unfortunately) fits with the way he appears to be "phoning it in".

[natyanayaki]

You thought the order to star-surf to dial the gate despite the damage to the ship's system's was an order Jack would normally give. He risked their lives with out any emanate peril forcing the action.

I agree with you that Jack has been a bit... different. He seems quite blasé, which is not the Jack way IMO. I guess they're just writing him to fit what they need, which (unfortunately) fits with the way he appears to be "phoning it in".

I disagree with the above. Jack is no longer a field operative, he's not just a soldier, he is a diplomat, and as such he has to do things differently. He made it clear that if he had a choice in the matter, his orders would be different, but that the President had given him a direct order and that he did not have a choice. It wasn't un-Jack-like, it was simply based on who Jack is now, based on his current job, and position. The person we know has NOT changed, but his responsibilities have. I mean, isn't he in charge of Earth's (not just the US') SECRET SPACE PROGRAM now? He operate differently because his perspective and his responsibilities are different.

[Blackhole]

I don't have a low view of the ancients.

It's not the kind of show SG-1 was...but Jack in this SGU has already done that which Jack of SG-1 wouldn't do.

This is true.

It would be improbable if the ship were operational.
It would be improbable if the ship were ancient
it would be improbable if Rush knew how to use the ship if it wasn't ancient.

It is probable that Rush already knows what the ship is and where it's from.
It is probable that Rush knows the path of the Destiny and the location of ships ahead of it.

I don't know about that.
The ship found them a planet with the right minerals for air.
in Light the ship cured the problem of power.
The ship cured the problem of water.

Interesting.

Was it me or did the ship look small enough to go through a gate?
I don't think Destiny stop at planets though.
I think Destiny drops to reconnect with the gate network since not only there are new gates being deposited but may also be tracking possible gates on the seeder ships.

I say the only stretch is Young.
Not by a bunch but a bit of one.
Young doesn't seem that...bright.

hmmm.
That's a wild one.
The setup for this hasn't been good if they do this.
It would be good story if they did do that...but I still have to criticize the lack of setup.

I agree that the Jack of this show tried to force Young to do something he didn’t feel was safe. The old Jack would never have done that. In my post I indicated that my question assumed the old Jack and not the new one.

I don’t view the ship’s attempt to help them as a quick fix. The Destiny has some form of Artificial Intelligence and it recognized that the crew had needs. In both SG-1 and SGA all the problems of the episode are usually wrapped up by the end. As you indicated SGU is a completely different type of show. The crew’s problems are more severe and lasting.

When I said going through the gate I meant he would walk not take the ship.

And I agree that the Destiny probably doesn’t stop near the planet, just within range of its Stargate. Rush would just have to wait for the team to come through the gate. Since I speculated that the arrival times would be scheduled, Rush would know when approximately the team would gate to the planet and would just need to be there then.

I think Young is more than bright enough to anticipate the importance of learning the schedule of the arrival times to the planets.

I agree that the setup of the show doesn’t lend itself to my scenario. Frankly imo, the setup of the show doesn’t lend itself to anything but what appears to have happened on the surface. As you are probably aware there is a spoiler floating around that discloses the outcome of Rush’s situation. I offered my scenario because I liked it better than what the spoiler indicated would happen.

[Blackhole]

I disagree with the above. Jack is no longer a field operative, he's not just a soldier, he is a diplomat, and as such he has to do things differently. He made it clear that if he had a choice in the matter, his orders would be different, but that the President had given him a direct order and that he did not have a choice. It wasn't un-Jack-like, it was simply based on who Jack is now, based on his current job, and position. The person we know has NOT changed, but his responsibilities have. I mean, isn't he in charge of Earth's (not just the US') SECRET SPACE PROGRAM now? He operate differently because his perspective and his responsibilities are different.

You make very valid points that the new Jack has different responsibilities than he had before. Imo the new Jack is fundamentally different character. Imo hijacking Young’s body to implement their rescue plan when Young objected to it on safety grounds is something the old Jack would never have done whether the President directed him to or not. He would not have put the crew at risk to get information. He could have found a way to stall until Young’s concerns were addressed. The old Jack routinely violated direct orders when he thought they were wrong or would hurt someone and was willing to suffer the consequences of his actions. In the pilot when he didn’t detonated the bomb, at the end of season one when the team gated to Apophis’ ship in ‘Within The Serpent’s Grasp’ and saved Earth, when he refused to steal the trinium in ‘Spirts’ are a few off the top of my head. He could have been arrested and imprisoned for his insubordination but he still did what he felt was right.

Young was on the ship Jack was not. Going over Young’s head was wrong by Jack’s own admission. He also supported Telford’s attempt to cut and run. The old Jack would never have done that. He even refused to accept Jonas Quinn on SG-1 until he was sure he was willing to sacrifice himself for the good of the team. What Telford did was cowardly and the old Jack would never have sanctioned it.

[Daro]

Young was on the ship Jack was not. Going over Young’s head was wrong by Jack’s own admission. He also supported Telford’s attempt to cut and run. The old Jack would never have done that. He even refused to accept Jonas Quinn on SG-1 until he was sure he was willing to sacrifice himself for the good of the team. What Telford did was cowardly and the old Jack would never have sanctioned it.

Since I'm not up to speed on the old series yet, I was wondering. The stargate program and all the other stuff going on with space, etc, is secret right? How much do you think the people using the communication stones to see their families get to say? Do the family members have to sign a non-disclosure agreement too?

[Carter1994]

Thanks very much for your compliments they are very gracious.

Credit where credit it is due, and your post was worth crediting.

I agree that it probably won't play out that way either. Both parties hating each other’s guts make for very juicy drama and I have read the spoiler article floating around as well. For me at least, the reason I like this scenario better is because I liked Young’s character a lot. I respected him and thought he was doing his best to do a very difficult job. I can understand from his perspective why he marooned Rush and why he may have felt it necessary, but still, it was an extremely drastic and cold blooded measure. My scenario doesn't tarnish Young anywhere as much as leaving Rush to die does.

Young was my favorite character for the first few episodes... I guess I started to wonder about him (or rather, what the writers would do to him) after the end of Light. Young's accusation, and Rush's responses simply didn't make any sense, so I quickly figured out that they were going to play with his character for the sake of drama. I'm very unhappy that Rush was left on the planet (although, can't really say the guy didn't deserve it), namely because it's wrong to leave someone to their death, and because I believe it was done out of anger. There appears to be no evidence that it was premeditated, so... I don't know if I can let this one go.

I'm curious to see how it will be dealt with--if it is dealt with--when Rush comes back. Of course it will vary on how he returns, and what Young does. The way I interpret Young, I think he'll be torn with guilt. He's always been rather honorable, and so I'm hoping he will confess what he did before Rush returns. But more on that later.

[...]What do others think?

*looks around nervously* Oh, dear, not that debate again... A few pages back there was a conversation about this that lasted... 300? 400? posts. I kid you not. Anyway, I don't think Jack would, because that's not how he works. In my opinion, Young crossed a line as soon as he hit Rush the second time. When I watched it the first time with a group of fans, the room roared with approval when Young punched Rush. But when he hit him again, I heard gasps and grunts of disapproval. Young took it too far, because he was angry. I can't see O'Neill doing that. He knows his limits, and he doesn't push them. O'Neill is no coward, though. If the situation warrants, he'll do what he thinks is necessary (The Other Side), but he is not going to react out of anger. Fact is, he's shown an enormous amount of self control in this area of his life. If he weren't, I guarantee you Kinsey, Melbourne, Simmons, etc., would have been stranded long ago.

And Telford is a threat to the Destiny, it makes no sense that he's been given so much time with the stones, he's acted highly unprofessionally, and it's become quite apparent that no one on the Destiny is going to let him get anywhere near the more important areas of the ship, and as such, it's a complete waste of time and personal when they could be getting someone to come help fix the Destiny, exercise the crew, etc.p

[Blackhole]

Since I'm not up to speed on the old series yet, I was wondering. The stargate program and all the other stuff going on with space, etc, is secret right? How much do you think the people using the communication stones to see their families get to say? Do the family members have to sign a non-disclosure agreement too?

In the instances I remember civilians did have to sign them.