'Justice' (110) General Discussion

[jelgate]

Young was quick to make his judgment, much quicker then I am. To me, Young is no less untrustworthy then Rush...

Not to me

Young will have to do a lot worse then to be more untrustworthy then Rush. I still can't get over the marroning the 80 people for his own ambitions

[PG15]

But, why does he get to unilaterally make that decision?

Good question.

I like to see it asked in the show.

It was better for him, but for the crew? Getting rid of your lead scientist was a dumb idea... so no, not in the best interest of the crew at all.

See, that's a point of contention for me. Did this particular lead scientist have the interest of the crew in mind in the first place? Yeah, he's brilliant, but does he use that brilliance to help the crew get home every chance he gets?

That, IMHO, is up for debate; and that's what makes this situation a lot more morally ambiguous than, say, Sheppard abandoning McKay on some backwater planet because the latter has finally gotten too annoying.

[mere earthling]

Young was quick to make his judgment, much quicker then I am. To me, Young is no less untrustworthy then Rush...

Sometimes you just have had enough and think "I CAN'T do this anymore, it isn't helping us, it's hurting us". I think Rush pushed him just that far.

Both characters aren't meant to be overly moral or ethical, there has been the most discussion about this in a few of these threads-the controversy is good for the show.

[EllieVee]

The ship is populated by a bunch of selfish idiots, clearly. Using the stones to go get drunk and laid and go party and deliver child support? Tsk. The mental state of the crew is clearly not a top priority for those in charge, and that means Wray/Young/Rush. Making them do 'boot camp' is one thing, but using force against an obviously troubled person and talking about him behind his back instead of talking to him... Stupid.

Sure, but bootcamp was wrong, too. Plus Young has been talking about Rush behind his back since they got there.

'It could be that Rush is just starting the fire so he can put it out, or it could be that he's so far ahead of us, he can see problems that none of us can see.'

[natyanayaki]

Young was quick to make his judgment, much quicker then I am. To me, Young is no less untrustworthy then Rush...

Personally, knowing what we do as third party observers I'd trust Young less than I do Rush. They are both manipulative, but Rush doesn't try to make himself look like a hero.

[Misfits]

I didn't say I supported his action - just that his speech was moving and he appeared to be in a state of deep despair. Given the circumstances, I'm, surprised more people aren't suffering the same despair.

Sorry, I never meant to say that you inferred any position regarding Sgt. Spencer's suicide.

[Deevil]

Personally, knowing what we do as third party observers I'd trust Young less than I do Rush. They are both manipulative, but Rush doesn't try to make himself look like a hero.

And that's a very good point. Rush is who he is, up and down and because of that he is kind of predictable. Young is not...

[Lahela]

Sorry, I never meant to say that you inferred any position regarding Sgt. Spencer's suicide.

Ah, the joys of text based communication. No worries.

[Misfits]

I'd like to add one more question to Deevil's list. Would he approve of Young's affair with an officer under his command? You may brush it off as nothing but a personal decision, but considering Jack and Sam's story, I highly doubt he would be OK with Young's breach of protocol.

I don't think Jack would be ok with Col. Young's actions with his personal life,
his affair with TJ, however, I would think Jack would be very supportive of Col. Young's attempt to work it out with his wife.

Jack would punish Rush, put him under guard, probably beat him to a pulp, but he would not leave their lead scientist, the man most proficient in Ancient language and technology aboard the ship on a planet. Young could have punished Rush in other ways.

Col. Young did beat up Dr. Rush to a pulp, and Dr. Rush was even more defiant. So, just what are you supposed to do with someone that is so smart and defiant? No amount of oversight is ever going to contain him, and standing over him 24/7 is a waste of resources. Also, you could never believe or trust the guy and would have to devote a lot of resources and time to check, double check, and triple check his work.

And Young could have used the same methods he was using before, have Eli check up on him, just double the efforts, get a few other scientists to watch Rush. Put a guard on Rush at all times.

It was apparent that Col. Young was constantly watching Dr. Rush with the KINO. In fact Col. Young believed that Dr. Rush was so dangerous that he put it on himself to watch him. And Dr. Rush didn't like that one bit.
Remember that Dr. Rush asked for and got complete control of his science team, including Eli. He was obviously cognizant of Eli's ability to figure out his actions

At some point, a person's dangerous actions out weigh his potential contributions. Dr. Rush's declaration that "we'll never be done." told Col. Young that he has to be eliminated.

[Misfits]

No I don't, I have never watched an episode of SG1 in my life.

Well, if you had, you would understand Jack a whole lot better.

Yes, thank you for that.

You're welcome. Never say that I didn't do anything for you. :-)

You'd be wrong. This situation with Jack is different then the issues with Young. Comparing them is pointless.

You say that so authoritatively.
The situation may not be exactly the same, however there are many things are relevant.
Jack's decision to act unilaterally. Be the Judge, Jury, and Executioner.
Jack's loyalty to those he care about, and any attack, or perceived attack will turn him on a dime.

Jack would not have sacrificed one of the few people who truly understand the ancient tech not matter his personal feelings on the subject. He would not have risked the lives of the 80 people on the ship to exercise his own anger.

On the contrary, Jack, by himself, decided the danger that Alar presented more than offset any benefit that their technology may provide. By his actions endangered all of Earth, not just 80 people.

You're continued cries to "rewatch the episode so you'll see everything as I do" is redundant as I could suggest the same to you. We have different interpretations of the same events. Accept it.

I tell you to re-watch episodes because you have shown, by your postings, that you are unable to get it. It seems to me that you have an uncanny ability to ignore anything that doesn't fit your interpretation of the character.

I wouldn't care if you never got it, to tell you the truth. And I can accept that you can interpret it any way you want to.
You're the one who don't seem to accept that other people can have a different interpretation.

[Misfits]

It's been shown multiple times that while they may have some knowledge of the language and technology that they are not nearly as proficient as Rush. Considering the age difference, and the amount of credentials Rush would have needed to get the position he did, it makes sense that he's had the most experience studying the technology and language. It would be all good and well if the crew weren't stranded, with impending dangers at every turn, to give the Scientists all the leisure to make mistakes and learn so that they are proficient; however that is not the case. They need someone with a high level of knowledge of astrophysics, ancient technology, language and history of the SGC. Even in "Justice" we were shown that the scientists' knowledge of the chair is far less than that of Rush. What happens when they find and important, or dangerous device that none of these younger scientists know about, when if they had Rush's vaster experience and knowledge they could figure it out due to Rush's knowledge of previous discoveries, or his deciphering capabilities. All the scientists aboard are brilliant, they wouldn't have been at Icarus if that wasn't the case, but they currently don't have the luxury to learn without their head-scientist.

The question seems to be whether Dr. Rush's superior knowledge out weigh the danger that he poses. Nobody is indispensable. Co. Young decided that Dr. Rush was too dangerous. I agree with him.

[Misfits]

I asked this on another thread, no answer,
Do we know how long a person can use the stones or each time? Is there a time limit or could they stay connected for maybe days. that would help a switch for the scientists to get accquainted with the destiny, using non essential personnel's bodies

Well, Dr. Jackson and Vala used the stones for days.
Are there any limitations on time? I don't believe it has been defined yet.
Are there any limits on the distance? I don't believe so, yet.

[Misfits]

I assume the connection is permanent unless the connection is actively canceled. Otherwise why would death on one side effect both people?

Because, an explosion on Destiny would destroy the base where the stones are placed, thereby returning the conscience back to their original bodies.

The question would be if the bodies and conscience of the people back on Earth would be affected.

[Deevil]

Well, if you had, you would understand Jack a whole lot better.

I understand Jack quite well. We talk to each other every night on twitter.

You say that so authoritatively.
The situation may not be exactly the same, however there are many things are relevant.
Jack's decision to act unilaterally. Be the Judge, Jury, and Executioner.
Jack's loyalty to those he care about, and any attack, or perceived attack will turn him on a dime.

The comparison doesn't work for me because the situations are incredibly different.

On the contrary, Jack, by himself, decided the danger that Alar presented more than offset any benefit that their technology may provide. By his actions endangered all of Earth, not just 80 people.

No he didn't. That is pure hyperbole.

I wouldn't care if you never got it, to tell you the truth. And I can accept that you can interpret it any way you want to.
You're the one who don't seem to accept that other people can have a different interpretation.

Whose the person suggesting that the entirety of SG1 gets rewatched because an opinion of a character doesn't match?

Pot meet Kettle - you're gonna have a beautiful friendship.

[Misfits]

That, IMHO, is up for debate; and that's what makes this situation a lot more morally ambiguous than, say, Sheppard abandoning McKay on some backwater planet because the latter has finally gotten too annoying.

In the same vein, consider that in SGA Dr. McKay can be as egotistical as the next mad scientist, however, he is able to accept a higher authority and work under the safety protocol established by them. Yeah, he fights for everything he can get, however, he accepts their authority and finds a way to work within the boundaries.
And in few occasions that he went beyond the boundaries, he demonstrated the ability to apologize for having done so.

Dr. Rush has displayed that he is not so keen on accepting anyone's authority over him, and definitively no ability to apologize because, in his reasoning he should be in charge and thereby make any decision he wants to make.
He is smarter than anybody else, and therefore he knows better.

This was very evident by what he said to Sgt. Greer back in the Desert planet in "Air III".

RUSH: Rich?! (He turns on Greer angrily.) My father worked in the shipyards in Glasgow. I earned a scholarship to Oxford while I was working two jobs. I have earned the right to make decisions without explaining myself to you or anyone else! You give me some of that water!

Well on the planet that Col. Young marooned him, he got an Alien spaceship and he can do whatever he wants, however he wants, and he can make any decisions without explaining himself to anyone else.
In my view, he got exactly what he wanted.