'Justice' (110) General Discussion

[Deevil]

Depends on which philosophy you side on.

It's not about philosophy, it's about ensuring that the entire team has the best chance of survival. The lottery does not ensure that, and thus Young actually doomed those 15 survivors to the same fate as those on the ship.

[Yusagi]

Depends on which philosophy you side on.

In the movie "Deep Impact", a lottery was used in addition to the selected personnel. In "2012", a different method was used, they allowed rich people to buy seats.

IMO, it was the right call based on the fact that this group didn't volunteer for this mission.

However, in Stargate, which I was specifically referring to, it has always been the best and the brightest. Never has a lottery been mentioned, even when they had advanced knowledge of an impending doom.

[Misfits]

It doesn't matter how justified he is, how many things he might have done to provoke him, or how much of a jerk Telford might be. What matters is, at its most basic, Telford angered Young, and his reaction is to attack him. Rush angered Young, and his reaction is to attack and maroon him.

It doesn't make for good leadership.

IMO, brute force is necessary in some situations. Not always, and certainly not the first or the only option. However, an option.

Especially in the situation that Col. Young finds himself in and the options available to him, IMO, he took care of business.

[Misfits]

It's not about philosophy, it's about ensuring that the entire team has the best chance of survival. The lottery does not ensure that, and thus Young actually doomed those 15 survivors to the same fate as those on the ship.

I don't agree.
IMO, it was the best choice.

[Yusagi]

IMO, brute force is necessary in some situations. Not always, and certainly not the first or the only option. However, an option.

Especially in the situation that Col. Young finds himself in and the options available to him, IMO, he took care of business.

Oh yes, of course. But when Young happens to use the brute force (and the emotional equivilent to the woman) solution on people who piss him off, regularly, that's not a good sign. When he's the only one deciding what's a worthy offense and what is the worthy counter, he's wielding absolute power, and we know what happens with that.

[Misfits]

However, in Stargate, which I was specifically referring to, it has always been the best and the brightest. Never has a lottery been mentioned, even when they had advanced knowledge of an impending doom.

If anything, Stargate writers have come up with innovative answers.

I like this answer, that's all.

Considering that these people were not volunteers to this Expedition, it was the fair thing to do.

[Deevil]

I don't agree.
IMO, it was the best choice.

Sure, but how does having a couple of random scientists, a human resource official and a couple of military personnel set them up for a long term survival? What skills do these people have?

Young didn't seem to think this mattered because of his own inability to make a decision (another reason why he is a bad CO). But it matters.

Each episode Young keeps on doing something that makes me wonder how he even got a command, let alone is kept in it.

[Misfits]

Oh yes, of course. But when Young happens to use the brute force (and the emotional equivilent to the woman) solution on people who piss him off, regularly, that's not a good sign. When he's the only one deciding what's a worthy offense and what is the worthy counter, he's wielding absolute power, and we know what happens with that.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Then, there is, Leadership by paralysis.

And, You can satisfy some people all the time. You can satisfy all the people some of the time. However, you can not satisfy all the people all the time.

:-)

[Yusagi]

If anything, Stargate writers have come up with innovative answers.

I like this answer, that's all.

Considering that these people were not volunteers to this Expedition, it was the fair thing to do.

It's hardly innovative. You've pointed out yourself, lottery is a common answer. Maybe if he locked everyone in one end of the Destiny, and the first 15 people to get to the shuttle win, it would be innovative XD But then again, that's kind of one of those killer reality shows.

But, to be fair...it's not about what sounds nice or what's fair. They're a billion lightyears from Earth, about to ram into a star. They have one slim chance for 15 people to colonize on a planet and live out their life and maybe find a way off or home. You have to pick the people most likely to achieve that, or you're only dooming everyone to their deaths. That's not a kindness to anyone--especially since the deaths on the planet can be even worse than the sun. At least in the Destiny the death would be quick, and you wouldn't have to watch the weak and inept die first.

[Misfits]

Sure, but how does having a couple of random scientists, a human resource official and a couple of military personnel set them up for a long term survival? What skills do these people have?

Young didn't seem to think this mattered because of his own inability to make a decision (another reason why he is a bad CO). But it matters.

Each episode Young keeps on doing something that makes me wonder how he even got a command, let alone is kept in it.

Obviously. Gen. O'Neill thought highly of him, enough to be his first choice to lead the expedition team.

[Yusagi]

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Then, there is, Leadership by paralysis.

And, You can satisfy some people all the time. You can satisfy all the people some of the time. However, you ca not satisfy all the people all the time.

:-)

I'm not entirely sure where that post was going. Elaborate?

[Deevil]

Obviously. Gen. O'Neill thought highly of him, enough to be his first choice to lead the expedition team.

Yes, that was clearly before he went nuts, or started to show his true colours.

[Misfits]

It's hardly innovative. You've pointed out yourself, lottery is a common answer. Maybe if he locked everyone in one end of the Destiny, and the first 15 people to get to the shuttle win, it would be innovative XD But then again, that's kind of one of those killer reality shows.

But, to be fair...it's not about what sounds nice or what's fair. They're a billion lightyears from Earth, about to ram into a star. They have one slim chance for 15 people to colonize on a planet and live out their life and maybe find a way off or home. You have to pick the people most likely to achieve that, or you're only dooming everyone to their deaths. That's not a kindness to anyone--especially since the deaths on the planet can be even worse than the sun. At least in the Destiny the death would be quick, and you wouldn't have to watch the weak and inept die first.

Maybe.

The only thing that has been proven by humansocial engineering is that we have no idea of what we're doing.

The best laid plans of men and mice.....

First of all, you don't know for a fact what kind of planet you're sending them to.

Picking one set of people would give them a better chance of survival in one type of environment, and another set in a different type of environment.

So, how do you choose? And what guarantee is there that you would pick the best set of skills for a particular type of planet you're going to go to?

In absence of real data, lottery is just as effective. And definitively more fair.

[Yusagi]

First of all, you don't know for a fact what kind of planet you're sending them to.

Picking one set of people would give them a better chance of survival in one type of environment, and another set in a different type of environment.

So, how do you choose? And what guarantee is there that you would pick the best set of skills for a particular type of planet you're going to go to?

In absence of real data, lottery is just as effective. And definitively more fair.

They only had 80 people, there wasn't the luxury of a wide array of specific skills. They knew it was a small, uninhabited planet, likely with few resources. All they needed was the general survivability/leadership qualification to select 15 (17?) for. Much like he picked Scott and TJ.

[Misfits]

Originally Posted by Yusagi
Oh yes, of course. But when Young happens to use the brute force (and the emotional equivilent to the woman) solution on people who piss him off, regularly, that's not a good sign. When he's the only one deciding what's a worthy offense and what is the worthy counter, he's wielding absolute power, and we know what happens with that.

Originally Posted by Misfits
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Then, there is, Leadership by paralysis.

And, You can satisfy some people all the time. You can satisfy all the people some of the time. However, you ca not satisfy all the people all the time.

:-)

I'm not entirely sure where that post was going. Elaborate?

First line is in reference to your post.

The second line is in reference to all previous posts that believe in ruling by committee.

And the last line is that no matter what you decide, you'll piss off somebody, so, do what you think is right and the hell with what anybody else thinks.