'Justice' (110) General Discussion

[nx01a]

@valerius...
You've compared Dr. Rush to Dr. Frankenfurter. Noice. Very noice.

For some reason, I expected Rush to have that whole 'schoolboy from a bad neighbourhood who used to do boxing' cliche going on, and give Young a good fight. Hmm. Guess not.

@Misfits...
That's exactly what Young was accused of doing with Spencer. Rush was asking for it? Does that justify it? There's always an alternative to murder, even in the cases of troublemakers like Spencer and Rush.

[Maj_Cliffhanger]

Until he gets the master codes to the ship and starts forcing people to do things his way [which I'd love to see, actually], he won't stop his attempts at manipulation but look at his track record. The only thing he's done that have really succeeded was stranding them. Everything else [and even the stranding] have been seen by the crew as obvious manipulation. When he tries something next and everyone knows his track record [especially after framing Young], they'll triple and quadruple check up after him. He's really not very good at manipulating people.

Really?!!! Honestly surprised here. I see Rush as a master manipulator! And that is the problem. He not only manipulates people (Franklin?) but situations as well. 'Justice' is just the most blatant example. Have you forgotten how he manipulated the situation and data when Telford and team were trying to use the sun to power the gate? Yes, he was right to do that - not arguing that - but he didn't consult with anyone before he did it. Did you blame Young for having Eli go over all the data and make sure Rush was right?

Rush is a rogue genius - and rogue geniuses can be very, very dangerous.

I'll reiterate something I posted some 11 or so pages ago: Young gave Rush a choice on the planet. He basically said, 'Enough!' "Are we finished?" It was Rush who answered that they would 'never be finished'; ie that he would continue to fight Young every step of the way and do whatever he thought was necessary - not in the interest of getting everyone home but to further his own agenda, whatever the heck that might be! Rush manipulated every person aboard that ship when he framed Young for the sole purpose of getting control of his science team. He all but killed Franklin. And he was basically promising that he'd do it again, stating that Young couldn't make the 'life and death' descisions Rush deemed necessary.

He was wrong. Young could and did.

Young didn't strand him out of some sense of vengeance, but for the future sake of the crew. Sooner or later Rush was going to do something to get someone killed. And if they did manage to find a way home, how can any of them trust that Rush won't sabotage it they same way he sabotaged their escape from Icarrus? Having Greer gaurd him isn't good enough because the guy is just too darn smart!

So, what, he should have dragged him back to the Destiny and had Eli play the uncorrupted footage for everyone? Exactly how long would that have alienated Rush? Only until the next time someone deemed they needed him. He'd claim that what he did wasn't that bad, that he knew all along that Young would be cleared. He'd claim he told everyone on the team not to sit in the chair and get them to ignore how he manipulated their emotions in such a way that Franklin did exactly what he wanted one of them to do. Memory is a tricky thing. It wouldn't take him long before he had everyone thinking he'd been punished enough and that Col. Young was being unreasonable in distrusting him.... And then they'd be right back where they were before with the constant danger of wondering just what stunt Rush is going to pull next and who he's going to endanger when he does it.

Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth!

[valerius]

@valerius...
You've compared Dr. Rush to Dr. Frankenfurter. Noice. Very noice.

Yea, you're right, forgot about that Curry always triggers Pennywise in my head, the only creepy thing in the abysmal 'Stephen King's It' movie.

[nx01a]

@Maj Cliffhanger...
I can definitely see what you mean, Cliff, but I don't think what was effectively murder was necessary.
As for me thinking Rush isn't good at manipulation... He stranded them there and people're still unsure of his motives in doing so ultimately. He stayed aboard the Destiny in 'Light' when he, most likely, suspected that it would simply recharge itself, effectivelysending the shuttle crew to a barren existence and potential death, and Young called him on it. Actually... Rush gave himself away in the end scene. Rush faked the sparking gate in 'Earth' and Rush put Eli on his case. He tried to con the crew with the fake 'natural naquadah' *giggle* planet and Eli found him out. He tried to frame Young for murder and Eli found him out.
He's really not good at subtle. Let's try stark raving next.

[Misfits]

It's obvious that Young's the best person to lead the crew, but even he's got serious issues. A triumvirate [Young, Wray, Rush] overseen by Chloe would be perfect.

@Jel... I get what you said, but Young framed Rush [and a rockslide] for his own death just like Rush framed Young for Spencer's murder. If that's what he's willing to do, no wonder people are doing it to him. Rush framed him for the good of the crew to get rid of him [or so he says] and Young framed Rush for Young's own good. That really doesn't balance out. Both are wrong, but Rush is integral to the ship, sadly. Young isn't.

Oh, please. Chloe at the top? She may make a good leader eventually, however, not now.

As for Col. Young's actions, consider the following. Dr. Rush's actions resulted with a comatose Dr. Franklyn. And Dr. Rush says that "we'll never be done." I would argue that Col. Young acted on behalf of the crew.
To protect them from Dr. Rush's future mischiefs which could endanger the crew.

[Maj_Cliffhanger]

@nx01a
Grin - I hope you are enjoying this discussion as much as I am! I like debating things like this.

Oh I agree that Rush keeps getting found out, but he's not being found out very fast - and that's were the danger lies. He knew when he framed Young that sooner or later the truth would probably come to light, but he didn't care. He only needed to buy enough time to get one of his team to try the chair. He got what he wanted - and was found out afterward, when it no longer mattered as far as he was concerned!

And, what about what he did to Franklin? Yes, it was Franklin's decision; I can hear Rush's argument now - but we all know Rush basically pushed him into doing. What if the poor man never wakes up or he suffers brain damage? What punishment should Rush face for that? I still say Rush would eventually kill someone - what happens then?

[Ashman]

In the end of Justice I guess Rush was wrong about Young. Young made a choice about who lives and who dies...

[Misfits]

@Jel...
Young's been beating up people he dislikes all half season long. From Telford to Rush to a very deserving Spencer, he can't deal with personal issues without violence. Maybe it's being on the ship that's making him that way, but still, he's that way.

Young entirely cuts off an invaluable resource from the crew simply to satisfy his own desires.

First of all. Col. Telford deserved a beating for messing with his wife.

Sgt. Spencer was grabbed and pushed against the wall in order to stop him from further menacing Dr. Franklyn. At no time did Col. Young strike him.

As for Dr. Rush, he also deserved a beating. And he eliminated a person who was going to be a menace to the crew.

[Misfits]

I'm not saying that what Rush did was right, definitely not! But his way neutered an enemy [Young] while keeping him around should he prove useful. Young got rid of Rush because Rush had angered him for the 'final' time, and, despite Rush being a danger, his knowledge of Ancient technology still outstrips everyone else's on the ship. Had Young exposed Rush, put Eli in charge of the scientists, put Greer as Rush's permanent escort and confined Rush to quarters except for sciency stuff, that would be acceptable... not leaving him to die.

I don't agree. When someone challenges your authority to lead, and swears that he'll continue to do so after you just gave him a resounding beating, It's come to either you or him scenario. And, obviously Col. Young chose himself.

[Misfits]

Um, no, you don't. Unless you're living in a military dictatorship. Do you?

Yes you do. You can quit and leave, provided your contract with the military allows you to terminate your contract in such a manner, however, as long as you're getting that paycheck, you do.

I seem to remember an episode in SG-1, when at the end of the episode, Dr. McKay was sent to Russia, after spending the whole episode being a pain, and he had to go because he was under contract to the military and was getting paid.

[nx01a]

@ Misfits...
All your arguments seem to validate Young stranding Rush. And yes, I do consider it murder since humans [assuming Rush is one] need things like food, water, shelter, etc. None of those things can be found on that planet as far as we've seen. Leaving rush there was a death sentence.
Having said that... Young potentially killing Spencer was the unacceptable behaviour that prompted the inquiry. Now it's Young potentially killing Rush. Young has no right to go around unilaterally killing people, military leader or not. And come on. Leaving Rush there to spare the crew was as much at the forefront of Young's mind as getting a better leader was at the front of Rush's when he planted the gun in Young's room. Rush did what was best for Rush and Young did what was best for Young. They both acted selfishly and, hopefully, they'll both pay for it.

[Deevil]

I don't agree. When someone challenges your authority to lead, and swears that he'll continue to do so after you just gave him a resounding beating, It's come to either you or him scenario. And, obviously Col. Young chose himself.

One of the reasons that he is a bad leader. If someone challenges your authority - you do not get to put them down like a lame horse.

[nx01a]

@nx01a
Grin - I hope you are enjoying this discussion as much as I am! I like debating things like this.

Arguing and not getting snippy... I do so enjoy it.

Oh I agree that Rush keeps getting found out, but he's not being found out very fast - and that's were the danger lies. He knew when he framed Young that sooner or later the truth would probably come to light, but he didn't care. He only needed to buy enough time to get one of his team to try the chair. He got what he wanted - and was found out afterward, when it no longer mattered as far as he was concerned!

Hmm. I see your point... BUT... One manipulation can't exist in a vacuum. If his successive manipulations don't work, his past ones were useless. His 'victory' over Young was quickly overturned but, yes, in the interim, someone sat in the chair. of course, once his duplicity was found out, Rush gets stranded on an alien world with 'no' way off and, more importantly, 'no' way back to his precious Destiny. Master manipulators think steps ahead, not for short term, immediate gains. Rush is a bad manipulator.

And, what about what he did to Franklin? Yes, it was Franklin's decision; I can hear Rush's argument now - but we all know Rush basically pushed him into doing. What if the poor man never wakes up or he suffers brain damage? What punishment should Rush face for that? I still say Rush would eventually kill someone - what happens then?

Confine him to his quarters, use his services only when absolutely necessary. Offing him and lying about it is unacceptable. Well, to ME, anyhow.

[Misfits]

@valerius...
@Misfits...
That's exactly what Young was accused of doing with Spencer. Rush was asking for it? Does that justify it? There's always an alternative to murder, even in the cases of troublemakers like Spencer and Rush.

Sometimes there are alternatives that are feasible. Sometimes, not.

Col. Young didn't murder Sgt. Spencer. He committed suicide.
Col. Young didn't murder Dr. Rush. He marooned him on a planet that happened to have a spaceship.

[nx01a]

One of the reasons that he is a bad leader. If someone challenges your authority - you do not get to put them down like a lame horse.

Or a mad dog. Esp. not your mad dog lead scientist.