'Justice' (110) General Discussion

[garhkal]

Well, one is killing the person for good, while the other is character assassination. IMO its easy to see which is worse.

[jelgate]

Abandoning Rush on that planet isn't killing him

[Artemis-Neith]

Abandoning Rush on that planet isn't killing him

Oh, that's exactly, what it is. How long do you think is a human able to survive in a desert-like environment, without water, food and a possibility to leave that planet?

Even if he didn't "actually" kill him, Young knew very well it was a death sentence and it was clearly meant as that. Sometimes people seems to forget that Young is a soldier, and soldiers are trained to kill, if it is necessary.

[jelgate]

That's a premature conclusion. It had vegetation and was not a desert. Their is no proof that their is no water or animals

[Artemis-Neith]

It's not, just watch the scenes again, in the area we've seen was nothing, and Rush confirmed that …

(spoiler for the 11. episode)

Spoiler:

when he came back. He said that he'd died there, if the aliens haven't found and brought him in their ship, because there was no water or anything else.

Young left him on that planet for good. Deliberately. Full knowing, that he'd have no change, and cared zero, because, well he wanted to get rid of him, after Rush just said so clearly that he won't obey him.

[Baron Of Hell]

Leaving Rush was pretty much attempted murder in my opinion. Even if the planet was lush and green with water everywhere it would be attempted murder. They don't know anything about the planet. They already had planets with killer bugs, crazy spiders, something from star wars, and water stealing glow bugs. Who knows what is on this planet. Heck the weather might change enough to kill him. Leaving him on that planet is like removing one bullet from a gun and giving it a spin before pulling the trigger.

[jelgate]

It's not, just watch the scenes again, in the area we've seen was nothing, and Rush confirmed that …

(spoiler for the 11. episode)

Spoiler:

when he came back. He said that he'd died there, if the aliens haven't found and brought him in their ship, because there was no water or anything else.

Young left him on that planet for good. Deliberately. Full knowing, that he'd have no change, and cared zero, because, well he wanted to get rid of him, after Rush just said so clearly that he won't obey him.

Considering Rush lies and manipulates people and was in the middle of staging a munity its hard to believe what he said. I am not arguing about abandonment but it was not murder. He didn't kill Rush and their is uncertainty that he could have survived

[Artemis-Neith]

Considering Rush lies and manipulates people and was in the middle of staging a munity its hard to believe what he said. I am not arguing about abandonment but it was not murder. He didn't kill Rush and their is uncertainty that he could have survived

In this episode was no mutiny on its way. In this episode Young wanted to have a chance to "talk" to Rush in private, in the moment he went with him to that alien ship, and had the opportunity, as intended. In the moment Rush said that he and Young will never be done, Young left him for good on that planet, without getting his hands dirty, directly. He knew very well the planet will do that for him, and it would have, without the aliens.
As Baron Of Hell pointed out, it can be considered as an attempted murder. I understand that Young fans excuse everything he did, because he's such a good guy, and of course he would never leave a man for good on a planet, go back to the ship and lie about it to everyone. Because nope, that would never happen.

[CarrieAnn]

Don't forget there is also the 'who started it' argument. I doubt Young would have left Rush on the planet if he hadn't started it by trying to frame him.

And also, if they had decided Young WAS guilty of murder, maybe they'd have pushed him out of an airlock or something. They didn't want a murderer running round a spaceship where they can't escape from him.

Young did do the worse thing, even though I don't think he planned it. But IMO they both were acting completely stupid and childish, they have hopefully learned something from what happened. I guess I'll find out in the next few weeks...

[garhkal]

In this episode was no mutiny on its way. In this episode Young wanted to have a chance to "talk" to Rush in private, in the moment he went with him to that alien ship, and had the opportunity, as intended. In the moment Rush said that he and Young will never be done, Young left him for good on that planet, without getting his hands dirty, directly. He knew very well the planet will do that for him, and it would have, without the aliens.
As Baron Of Hell pointed out, it can be considered as an attempted murder. I understand that Young fans excuse everything he did, because he's such a good guy, and of course he would never leave a man for good on a planet, go back to the ship and lie about it to everyone. Because nope, that would never happen.

While Jel is right, legally it would not be murder, just Negligent homicide, in essence it is killing someone. Just like if i left you in a 10x10 room, and just walked away.

[Artemis-Neith]

Don't forget there is also the 'who started it' argument. I doubt Young would have left Rush on the planet if he hadn't started it by trying to frame him.

And also, if they had decided Young WAS guilty of murder, maybe they'd have pushed him out of an airlock or something. They didn't want a murderer running round a spaceship where they can't escape from him.

Young did do the worse thing, even though I don't think he planned it. But IMO they both were acting completely stupid and childish, they have hopefully learned something from what happened. I guess I'll find out in the next few weeks...

Rush had committed a crime by framing Young, that's clear, we don't need to talk about that. Even if Young didn't plan to get rid of Rush from the start, he decided in the moment Rush said the wrong words to him, to leave him for good on that planet. That is an attempted murder, planned or not, reasons or not. Young knew in that moment what he'd done. And if he was so right with what he did, why should he then lie about it when he came back?

The evidence for Young having anything to do with Spencer's dead before, was very thin, it was just enough to let him step away, and that was exactly what should happen. Aside from that, in the end, it's the soldiers who have all the weapons on that ship, and the training to force those without weapons to do what they want them to do. But this never happened because everybody believed in Young's lie.

I think you're absolutely right, both men made a lot of mistakes and bad things, Rush more than Young. They did everything to let events escalate to a point of no return. I really think Rush is more to blame for what happened, but Young isn't an innocent victim in that game either. I don't think just because you have good reasons to do what Young did, it's a good example of justice. There is a reason for the title of the episode.

Edit: In the moment I wrote this post, garhkal (thanks for that ) made another post to correct the juridical term: it would be negligent homicide. The result is the same. Somebody is dead in the end.

[CarrieAnn]

The thing is, Rush seems to be one of those people who picks and picks at another person behind the scenes and winds them up til they get really angry and react, which often turns into a violent reaction. It was the sort of situation where parents would say to kids 'don't react to someone winding you up or YOU will get into trouble and the other person will say 'it wasn't me!' Very sneaky and devious, the type of person I really don't like. If you're going to fight, do it in the open. But human beings are devious

If I was Young I'd probably have said 'ok, Camille and Rush, you want control of the ship? Have it then, see if you do a better job. I'm out of it.' and see what they did. I bet they'd soon have come running to him saying 'wah! We can't cope, we want advice.'

[garhkal]

It would have been nice had Young thought that far ahead. But i doubt the rest of the military would have liked it.
Heck we saw how many were willing to stage a coup, just cause of the trial.

[Krisz]

In this episode was no mutiny on its way. In this episode Young wanted to have a chance to "talk" to Rush in private, in the moment he went with him to that alien ship, and had the opportunity, as intended. In the moment Rush said that he and Young will never be done, Young left him for good on that planet, without getting his hands dirty, directly. He knew very well the planet will do that for him, and it would have, without the aliens.
As Baron Of Hell pointed out, it can be considered as an attempted murder. I understand that Young fans excuse everything he did, because he's such a good guy, and of course he would never leave a man for good on a planet, go back to the ship and lie about it to everyone. Because nope, that would never happen.

LOL, as a Young fan I certainly don't excuse things that he did. This was an unforgivable act and I've wondered if he's been in this situation before and perhaps it's easier to do subsequently. I like the fact that nothing is straight forward about Rush and Young, they each have their obsessive behavioural traits and it makes them both interesting characters for the 'bad' things they do as much as the good, both believe strongly in what they do is for the benefit of the others on Destiny. It made for great viewing watching the game of wits between these two and how blind rage born of those character flaws cloud their judgement on occasion.

Rush clearly never had any respect for Young from the start. You could always see it in the condescending way he spoke to him. I'm thinking the reason why is in what he said to Young that enraged him due to the fact that the 'truth hurts'.....

RUSH: You don't believe in the mission. You resigned your position as SG leader because you didn't want to make the hard decisions—the life and death decisions. Well, that makes you a liability. I'm not proud of what I did, but I did it for the benefit of everyone on board.

I've wondered if Young disliked Rush for figuring him out from the start and his aggression towards Rush was due to being faced with someone who would use this 'weakness' to undermine him.

So, he makes a 'life or death' decision by leaving Rush on that planet to prove Rush wrong! The stress of wondering what Rush would do next that he rightly or wrongly thought was going to cause further problems overrode any sense of morality. The interesting thing was that he ended up with something worse, the terrible feeling of regret and remorse for that action. He's a psychological mess, an interesting mess to watch! Rush coming back to further haunt him was deserved, there was nothing he could ever do to make right what he did and he would face that every day for the rest of his life.

[CarrieAnn]

I like the fact that nothing is straight forward about Rush and Young, they each have their obsessive behavioural traits and it makes them both interesting characters for the 'bad' things they do as much as the good, both believe strongly in what they do is for the benefit of the others on Destiny.

You summarised it perfectly there!