'Justice' (110) General Discussion

[LtColCarter]

Glad we agree on something!

LOL...yes...it is! I have to green ya for that!

[EllieVee]

I'm sure Rush has the ability to memorize countless addresses . I'm quite sure his brain could have remembered one or two safe places.

What possible reason could he have to do that? The only time the gate on Icarus would be dialled would be to the ninth chevron address. There wouldn't be a reason to memorise any addresses otherwise.

It seems He had plenty of brain time to evaluate the situation he was in, and decide to do what was best for Rush.

Because it's best for him to place himself at risk? It seems that people want a bet each way.

[Deevil]

So you have a backup empty world as I said. Can we maybe credit the personnel at the SGC with some intelligence? They aren't a bunch of idiots, as I said their are plenty of situations that might require them to evac a planet without risking anyone else, so you'd stick aside a deserted planet for that specific use.

But then this harkens back to a question I haven't had answered; what if Rush was right? What if jumping to a gate in the MW would have caused catastrophic damage to the planet and/or gate. What if traveling using the 9th Chevron was the best choice to disperse the excess power, thus giving them all a fighting chance?

What if he was right?

Also - I can't imagine a reason why Rush, who was bought in to study the 9th Chevron, would memorise the addy for any empty planets in the MW.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

But then this harkens back to a question I haven't had answered; what if Rush was right? What if jumping to a gate in the MW would have caused catastrophic damage to the planet and/or gate. What if traveling using the 9th Chevron was the best choice to disperse the excess power, thus giving them all a fighting chance?

What if he was right?

Also - I can't imagine a reason why Rush, who was bought in to study the 9th Chevron, would memorise the addy for any empty planets in the MW.

No I imagine that Rush wouldn't have memorised addresses for empty planets. But then he wasn't the one dialling the Gate to start with, it was Riley who was, Rush pushed him aside. Riley as an SGC gate tech would more than likely know the addresses of an empty planet, the SGC are sensible enough to set up as an SOP a deserted planet for use of evac where connection to earth or other bases is too risky. As for Rush being right, he wasn't, the blast in this case cut the wormhole off, and instead of giving the evacuees at least a chance to get home, Rush has doomed to what is very likely a slow miserable death in the depths of space, billions of light years from home to satisfy his own curiosity.

[Deevil]

Riley as an SGC gate tech would more than likely know the addresses of an empty planet, the SGC are sensible enough to set up as an SOP a deserted planet for use of evac where connection to earth or other bases is too risky.

This I agree with, but he was dialing Earth wasn't he?

As for Rush being right, he wasn't, the blast in this case cut the wormhole off, and instead of giving the evacuees at least a chance to get home, Rush has doomed to what is very likely a slow miserable death in the depths of space, billions of light years from home to satisfy his own curiosity.

No, we do not know he wasn't right. We do not know what would have happened if he dialed a planet in the MW, we can only speculate.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

This I agree with, but he was dialing Earth wasn't he?



No, we do not know he wasn't right. We do not know what would have happened if he dialed a planet in the MW, we can only speculate.

Riley was ordered to dial the Stargate to earth by Young who didn't know about the core of the planet going critical. Rush could have radioed Young about this and Young could have ordered an evac to a deserted planet or even back to earth, I think people forget that Earth has a big old Iris on its stargate, which as we've seen in past episodes of sg1 can survive things like nukes being thrown at it, or even in Full Circle a catastrophic planet destroying explosion.

Rush is a brilliant character, and imo one of the greatest additions to the roster of stargate characters, but at his core he is a total b*stard. He doesn't care about most of the people on the Destiny, their tools to be manipulated for his own goals. He might have not been this way once, but currently the most important thing in Rush's mind is what his objectives are, which to us at the moment are unknown. Nevertheless Rush's decision to dial the 9th Chevron was not motivated by any sort of altruistic notion of saving people, it was to get to the Destiny to fulfil his objectives, not matter the cost to anyone else.

[Deevil]

Riley was ordered to dial the Stargate to earth by Young who didn't know about the core of the planet going critical. Rush could have radioed Young about this and Young could have ordered an evac to a deserted planet or even back to earth, I think people forget that Earth has a big old Iris on its stargate, which as we've seen in past episodes of sg1 can survive things like nukes being thrown at it, or even in Full Circle a catastrophic planet destroying explosion.

I also remember the Iris not stop radiation and other issues as well.

Anyways, given Young's habit of ignoring Rush - I am unsure that Young would have paid any attention to Rush.

... but currently the most important thing in Rush's mind is what his objectives are, which to us at the moment are unknown. Nevertheless Rush's decision to dial the 9th Chevron was not motivated by any sort of altruistic notion of saving people, it was to get to the Destiny to fulfil his objectives, not matter the cost to anyone else.

If we don't know what he's objectives are, it's difficult to make the categorical conclusion that his actions in dialing the 9th chevron were selfish. We just don't know. The being said the audience has been placed in a position to distrust Rush, and that does make him interesting, but it also doesn't make in inheritly universally untrustworthy.

My argument really is that there is a possibility that Rush didn't act as he did just out of a selfish desire to see what was on the other side. Don't get me wrong, I do believe it's likely that it informed his decision at least in part, but I'm not 100% sure it's the sum total of said decision. That's what makes him interesting, the unknowns and the mystery. Not because he is a Donkey, but because he really isn't. He is a complex character, thankfully being acted by a very good actor.

But we really don't know enough about him to talk about his motivations. That'll take time, at least in my mind.

[blackluster]

Riley was ordered to dial the Stargate to earth by Young who didn't know about the core of the planet going critical. Rush could have radioed Young about this and Young could have ordered an evac to a deserted planet or even back to earth, I think people forget that Earth has a big old Iris on its stargate, which as we've seen in past episodes of sg1 can survive things like nukes being thrown at it, or even in Full Circle a catastrophic planet destroying explosion.

I think Rush's judgment call was justified there, since Young kind of had his hands full trying to save the people trapped with the senator. Rush having to stop and explain himself to people over his head may have cost lives in that situation, since he seems to be many steps ahead of everyone else to the point that even the science team has trouble keeping up with him. To coin a phrase from Rush, he "reads the signs" that haven't even occurred to others yet.

Rush is a brilliant character, and imo one of the greatest additions to the roster of stargate characters, but at his core he is a total b*stard. He doesn't care about most of the people on the Destiny, their tools to be manipulated for his own goals. He might have not been this way once, but currently the most important thing in Rush's mind is what his objectives are, which to us at the moment are unknown. Nevertheless Rush's decision to dial the 9th Chevron was not motivated by any sort of altruistic notion of saving people, it was to get to the Destiny to fulfil his objectives, not matter the cost to anyone else.

To me, his goal seems to be the mission, as in open ended discovery. While he may sympathize with depressed people on the Destiny, I think their lack of enthusiasm for the mission and excitement at where they are is something Rush probably doesn't understand. My primary point here is that while I do agree that Rush is almost single-minded in the pursuit of his goals, I do not believe his goals are purely self serving and of no use or value to anyone besides him.

I made the point in another thread but in many ways what Rush did in sending those people to the Destiny is a mirror of what Daniel did in the original Stargate movie. Daniel lied to the military and convinced them that if they went ahead with the away mission through the gate that he would be able to get them back home. We know in hindsight that that was a lie since he made that call on a shaky assumption that there would be coordinate symbols near the gate. Hindsight also tells us that his "selfishness" while carelessly risking the lives of O Neil's team, also brought about the greatest discovery man had ever made and proved to be the catalyst for countless other advances.

Just as in Daniel's case, Rush was faced of the prospect of circumstances sealing away the discovery right in front of him, so he rolled the dice to preserve the chance at that discovery. No one crucifies Daniel yet many are ready and eager to see Rush go out an airlock. History may end up telling how the Destiny was useless, or it might be everything Rush expects it to be for the human race. I think it would be valuable to remember the context of the discovery of Destiny in relation to the discovery of the stargate itself before demonizing Rush and looking down one's nose at what Destiny is suggested to be.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

I think Rush's judgment call was justified there, since Young kind of had his hands full trying to save the people trapped with the senator. Rush having to stop and explain himself to people over his head may have cost lives in that situation, since he seems to be many steps ahead of everyone else to the point that even the science team has trouble keeping up with him. To coin a phrase from Rush, he "reads the signs" that haven't even occurred to others yet.

Actually Young didn't go to save the Senator till after the gate had been dialled. He came back to the Gateroom, had an argument with Rush then went to save the Senator. Besides which it wasn't Rush's call to make, it was a military situation and I don't see that Rush has any qualifications to make military decisions. Young was on his way back to the Gateroom, if Rush wanted to try and convince him to try changing the address he could have.

To me, his goal seems to be the mission, as in open ended discovery. While he may sympathize with depressed people on the Destiny, I think their lack of enthusiasm for the mission and excitement at where they are is something Rush probably doesn't understand. My primary point here is that while I do agree that Rush is almost single-minded in the pursuit of his goals, I do not believe his goals are purely self serving and of no use or value to anyone besides him.

I made the point in another thread but in many ways what Rush did in sending those people to the Destiny is a mirror of what Daniel did in the original Stargate movie. Daniel lied to the military and convinced them that if they went ahead with the away mission through the gate that he would be able to get them back home. We know in hindsight that that was a lie since he made that call on a shaky assumption that there would be coordinate symbols near the gate. Hindsight also tells us that his "selfishness" while carelessly risking the lives of O Neil's team, also brought about the greatest discovery man had ever made and proved to be the catalyst for countless other advances.

Just as in Daniel's case, Rush was faced of the prospect of circumstances sealing away the discovery right in front of him, so he rolled the dice to preserve the chance at that discovery. No one crucifies Daniel yet many are ready and eager to see Rush go out an airlock. History may end up telling how the Destiny was useless, or it might be everything Rush expects it to be for the human race. I think it would be valuable to remember the context of the discovery of Destiny in relation to the discovery of the stargate itself before demonizing Rush and looking down one's nose at what Destiny is suggested to be.

Rush clearly could not give a monkey's about anyone really on the ship. They're tools to him if he views them as useful in anyway, if they aren't useful to him he's very eager to discard them. He was pushing Young to stick Greer on the shuttle off the Destiny and he bloody knew that the ship would survive but he calculated that it would remove people who would be an obstacle to him.

As for comparison to Daniel, well the military dealt with him unpleasantly, they nearly beat the crap out of him and rightly so, if someone one doesn't give you all the information in the military then their a liability and need to be removed. If Young wasn't himself having trouble holding it together as well as the crew, if there were better troops on board, then Rush probably after he got to Destiny would have found himself taken to a quiet corner of the ship and had found himself on the receiving edge of some steel capped boots and told if he put peoples lives in danger again, his life would be put in danger as well.

From a tv show perspective I think the character of Rush is brilliant, but its his unpleasant qualities that make him so eminently watchable. He's narcissistic and sociopathic, manipulating and using people on the ship for his own ends, it makes for good tv, but Rush is not a nice person by any sense of the word. He's hardly the evilest character they've had on Stargate, this is the set of tv shows with previous villains who make Hitler look like amateur hour, and it would be wrong to describe him as a villain, he doesn't constantly seek the death of the crew, but he is a wildcard and not to be trusted.

[blackluster]

Rush clearly could not give a monkey's about anyone really on the ship. They're tools to him if he views them as useful in anyway, if they aren't useful to him he's very eager to discard them. He was pushing Young to stick Greer on the shuttle off the Destiny and he bloody knew that the ship would survive but he calculated that it would remove people who would be an obstacle to him.

There is no evidence of the bold other than Young's baseless paranoia, I'm not sure how this point keeps coming up.

As for comparison to Daniel, well the military dealt with him unpleasantly, they nearly beat the crap out of him and rightly so, if someone one doesn't give you all the information in the military then their a liability and need to be removed. If Young wasn't himself having trouble holding it together as well as the crew, if there were better troops on board, then Rush probably after he got to Destiny would have found himself taken to a quiet corner of the ship and had found himself on the receiving edge of some steel capped boots and told if he put peoples lives in danger again, his life would be put in danger as well.

Right, threaten him with violence. I must resist my urge to drop some scathing sarcasm, but the response doesn't even address the point I made of why Daniel did what he did, and how it mirrors Rush's situation suggesting a metaphor for Rush's motivations.

From a tv show perspective I think the character of Rush is brilliant, but its his unpleasant qualities that make him so eminently watchable. He's narcissistic and sociopathic, manipulating and using people on the ship for his own ends, it makes for good tv, but Rush is not a nice person by any sense of the word. He's hardly the evilest character they've had on Stargate, this is the set of tv shows with previous villains who make Hitler look like amateur hour, and it would be wrong to describe him as a villain, he doesn't constantly seek the death of the crew, but he is a wildcard and not to be trusted.

This is a recurring viewpoint that I will continue to disagree with based on the eps we've seen so far. I think anyone on the ship would be able to get along with Rush perfectly well if they tried. He responds to reason and competence, not violence, bravado and emotional outbursts. Because people on the ship have been more interested in lamenting over their situation and going along with Young's paranoia, they haven't been able to properly assess Rush's demeanor. Away from Young's influence we've seen TJ, Greer, Eli and even the science team get along just fine with Rush, especially after he got over his withdrawal symptoms. I believe the crew can trust him to preserve the maximum number of lives in a crisis and to be wholly dedicated to the Icarus mission of discovery and exploration. Understanding this gives you basis to reason with the guy.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Right, threaten him with violence. I must resist my urge to drop some scathing sarcasm, but the response doesn't even address the point I made of why Daniel did what he did, and how it mirrors Rush's situation suggesting a metaphor for Rush's motivations.

Yes I did address the metaphor with Daniel, because what both of them did is wrong, putting their own curiosity, their own narcissistic desire to satisfy their own interest above that of peoples lives. That does not sit well with us in the military, where people who hide information from you gets you killed. People like that get locked down, hard.

[Stewart5]

Erm....what military do you exist in mate.......grunts get told the very basic of what is required of them....

[blackluster]

Yes I did address the metaphor with Daniel, because what both of them did is wrong, putting their own curiosity, their own narcissistic desire to satisfy their own interest above that of peoples lives. That does not sit well with us in the military, where people who hide information from you gets you killed. People like that get locked down, hard.

To channel Rush again, that approach is better served when used on people who don't know any better. In either case there is nothing that either Daniel or Rush could have said that could have holistically conveyed the extent of the discovery staring them in the face. The military has no interest in that since it is not their mandate. The entire mandate of the scientists such as Rush is to make breakthroughs and where I'd differ from your assessment is that I do not believe that mandate is automatically self-serving. I see no point in leveling some moral accusation at such a pursuit either as though the modern military has never sacrificed people's lives to obtain certain objectives.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Erm....what military do you exist in mate.......grunts get told the very basic of what is required of them....

They get told the information they need, what's out on the ground, where they're going, the info they need to survive. You go higher up more info its distributed as its needed. The fact remains that neither Jackson on the first mission, or Rush, often are less than willing inform anyone of vital information, including the senior military officers in the field.

To channel Rush again, that approach is better served when used on people who don't know any better. In either case there is nothing that either Daniel or Rush could have said that could have holistically conveyed the extent of the discovery staring them in the face. The military has no interest in that since it is not their mandate. The entire mandate of the scientists such as Rush is to make breakthroughs and where I'd differ from your assessment is that I do not believe that mandate is automatically self-serving. I see no point in leveling some moral accusation at such a pursuit either as though the modern military has never sacrificed people's lives to obtain certain objectives.

Scientists like Rush and Jackson do not have the mandate to play with peoples lives, no matter how much bullsh*t words they dress up to talk about scientific progress. They aren't part of the military, or the chain of command, they have no part in making life or death decisions for those in the military.

[Saquist]

No, Saq, because then your risking the lives of hundreds of US scinece and military personnel if you go to Alpha site

I don't see the problem.
The Alpha site is never right on top of the Gate Anyway in fact this is the very reason you have an alternate site to deflect problems of this sort from the SGC....an Isolated area...as in Alternate Site. Emergency Back up for the SGC. There are even Beta and Gamma Sites.

Their job is to take the risk from the SGC so I just don't see the sense in this really.
Those sites should be programed like a hot key.