In Young we trust

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Avenger,

Rush was pretty greasy early in the season and he was the one responsible for everyone being on Destiny. Young not trusting him and accusing him of withholding information and misleading the crew wasn't off base.

If the accusation was made in private you'd be correct. In public with everyone looking on, that was a bad call. Young should know when and where to do things like accuse the lead scientist of withholding crucial information.

All that said I don't think Rush knew with enough certianty to give people any real hope that Destiny would survive the encounter with the Star in "Light". Thus, sharing that information would have just muddied the water about what to do with the people who might survive by leaving on the shuttle. If Rush withheld information it was the right call in my opinion. Choosing to assume the Ship would survive the encounter with the Star would have been foolish.

[Replicator Todd]

In Kiva we trust!

[yanna]

Wow. Ok. (deep breath)



That was the plan. Unless he planned to kill most of his crew in a frontal assault against a fortified, fanatical and ruthless enemy, he had to find a smart way to deal with them. Hence the misdirect of pretending to surrender so he could get all his people (including the hostages) in one area and space the rest. Unfortunately no plan survives contact with the enemy, and at worst he was optomistic in his planning, at best the plan is not done yet, just the episode. The fat lady ain't sung yet dude.

I'm sure there will be some Deus ex Machina solution to get them out of that mess. However, if he had gone ahead and vented the atmosphere when the LA showed up or been more effective in incapacitating them, he wouldn't have to come up with that plan at all. And fail.

If he had told anyone else he would also have been telling Evil-Telford. He had to keep an eye on him which means any conversation would have been overheard. Or if you want to look at it another way, it would have screwed up the cliffhanger.

Whaaa? There was no way to give a heads up to Scott and Wray without Telford overhearing? What, does he have ears like a bat? He could leave him in the room, quickly tell the other what's the deal then proceed with his torture therapy. As for how it would have screwed the cliffhanger, yes, I'm sure Young was really worried about that.

(about whether he should have told Scott what he was trying to do with Telford) Yeah it's almost like he was acting like his C.O.

There's being a C.O. and there's forcing someone to participate in a murder. Scott has a right to question Young's orders esp. considering that Young has already attempted to kill Rush once. Why should Scott trust a proven liar and attempted murderer just as he is killing again? At a court martial it would be his behind on the line too.

Eli volunteered to go down there. He can't wrap the kid up in cotton wool, every time someone steps through the gate they are running the risk of not returning, especially with Destiny having a countdown.

Eli had no business leaving just as Rush was frying his brain. A good commander would worry less about pleasing his pet geek and more about whether he's about to find himself without his two top scientists.

First he was provoked beyond measure to do what he did. Rush made it very clear (and had been dropping hints since early episodes) that one of them had to go. Was he just supposed to hand over the ship to the guy who stranded them all there because he didn't want to lose the chance to find out what was on the other side of the 9 symbol adress? The guy who was happy to risk other people's life to sit in the chair yet clearly didn't think it was safe for him to sit in? The guy who manipulated Franklin into sitting there, framed Young for murder so that he could get someone more suggestable into command? The guy who even thought himself callous and at least until he had the dreamwalk with his wife was living up to that label? Plus he wasn't trying to kill him. Rush attacked him, they fought, Young asked him if it was over, Rush said no, they fought some more, he knocked him out, and then decided not to pick him up and carry him to the gate he only had seconds to get to.

You need to rewatch Justice. Rush didn't attack Young, Young was the one who threw the first punch. All Rush was doing was his job. He wanted to study the chair. He couldn't quite do it without any access to it. With Spencer's death, he saw a chance and he removed Young who with his vast scientific knowledge expected Rush to study the chair from outside a locked and guarded room. Rush didn't expect people to believe that Young had committed murder. He just wanted him to step down and he explained quite clearly why. Young doesn't have what it takes. All that Young had to do was take Rush back on the ship, expose what Rush had done (he did have proof after all) and punish him. The correct reaction to being framed for murder is not to then go and commit a murder. Not to mention that the scientific part of the mission on the planet was thrown out the window when Young chose it as his venue for his confrontation with Rush. Rush wanted to study the first sign of civilisation they had found. It would probably be in the Destineers' best interest but Young didn't let him do his job.

There is a very real chance that if he had carried him back neither of them would have made it and even if they had he was just inviting trouble by rescuing him. Afterward he didn't tell anyone for the same reason he didn't tell anyone about what Rush did, so that the crew would not be burdened. Not the best decision, and one he regrets but both he and I admit it as such.

He wouldn't need to carry him back if he hadn't beaten unconscious a man half his size. And please, I'm not so sure he couldn't have hefted Rush in a fireman's carry and managed to get back. Rush is skin and bones. As for Young being oh, so noble and not wanting to burden the crew... Yeah, I think he was more worried about covering his own behnd.

He risked his life (yet again) to go and rescue Chloe. He found Rush first, and instead of leaving him to continue to look for Chloe rescued him. The connection was then broken and he tried to go back but by that time Rush had been forced to kill the alien and he had no way of returning. At that point he had to return fire or lose everyone on the ship, he had done all he could and had to leave it up to Rush.

I'm not about to pat Young on the back for rescuing Rush. Notice how he didn't say a thing about Rush being on that ship when he got back to Destiny? I think that his main goal was to get intelligence from Rush. Whether he woulld actually take him back to Destiny is debatable. As for Young leaving the rescuing to Rush while he was firing at the ship with Rush and Chloe in it.... wow, you make it sound as though they had discussed it, or something. Young had no way of knowing that Rush could and would save Chloe. He had just written them both off as acceptable losses.

Evacuating the air out of the gateroom would (he believed) have killed 2 people not just 1. And he didn't do it because of RUSH not Telford. By that point he had realised he made the wrong decision with Rush and wasn't going to do it again.

Saving Rush was extremely easy in that situation. All he had to do would be to order the stones disconnected. Or simply to remember that once Destiny is out of FTL, the stone connection is severred anyway. Even if he had somehow forgotten about all of that we don't know for sure that it was Rush he was so worried about

As opposed to benevolent Rush or super woman Wray? Judge him by his results when all the information is in.

Oh, I am judging by his results. And wait a minute, I'm not allowed to comment on a character unless I have seen the entire show?

[Kaiphantom]

That may have been unfounded, but remember that Rush DID intentionally mislead the crew with the fake Icarus planet data. And why did he do that? Not so that he could make people feel better like he claimed but so that he could study that damn chair. Watch his face when Young calls him on it if you don't believe me, he was furious.

Fake Icarus came later, and we're talking about Young, not Rush. And to be fair, Rush calls Young out for doing the exact same thing with trying to dial Earth. Young did something he knew was false in order to boost morale. Rush did the same.

But if you want to talk about it, Yes, Rush did want to study the chair, feeling very strongly it was the strongest chance at controlling the ship. It was Young holding him back.

He actually said that he knew that people didn't THINK he was doing a bang up job. I'm not nitpicking, I think it is an important distinction. He is truly the focus of everyone's unhappiness and blame for their situation, and that was the resentment exploding. He is not as empathetic as Scott, but Destiny needs a tough guy more than they need a nice guy right now.

Newsflash: If everyone is saying the same thing about you, it's usually a good indicator that they're right. Not always, but it bears in-depth introspection. And regardless of whether they were right or wrong, Young had to know that he had to make more of an effort to get along with people they were stuck on the ship with.

[Kelara]

I see Young as another obstacle that the rest of the Destineers have to overcome. He needs to be relieved of command before he kills them all.
[...]
He's just dangerously incompetent.

I'm so sorry I can green you only once for this post. Really, really sorry !

From the start we are shown the kinds of morals this guy has. That he throws some actions in that make him seem less absolutely self centered is logical, but like you I don't see why people (as in viewers; Destiny crew is of course hobbled by lack of great alternatives :/) would so desparately latch on to those few and far between instances.

[Phenom]

This thread is like a comp to see who can submit the longest post!

[EllieVee]

In the 3 parts of "Air" I liked him. It was obvious he was trying his best, and was willing to sacrifice himself to save the crew. In Darkness, I could tell he was a bit antagonistic to Rush, but overall he seemed to handle it decently and trusted Rush on the power issue.

You forget this from Darkness:

It could be that Rush is just starting the fire so he can put it out, or it could be that he's so far ahead of us, he can see problems that none of us can see.

A completely unnecessary and unfounded accusation.

[bobsuncorp]

OK we are up to 37 posts on this mass-debate (tee hee), I am now going away for the weekend, so lets see if we can double that by the time I get back!

I hope everyone is having as much fun fighting over this topic as I am and there are no hard feelings.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Yanna,

You need to rewatch Justice. Rush didn't attack Young, Young was the one who threw the first punch. All Rush was doing was his job. He wanted to study the chair. He couldn't quite do it without any access to it. With Spencer's death, he saw a chance and he removed Young who with his vast scientific knowledge expected Rush to study the chair from outside a locked and guarded room. Rush didn't expect people to believe that Young had committed murder. He just wanted him to step down and he explained quite clearly why. Young doesn't have what it takes. All that Young had to do was take Rush back on the ship, expose what Rush had done (he did have proof after all) and punish him. The correct reaction to being framed for murder is not to then go and commit a murder. Not to mention that the scientific part of the mission on the planet was thrown out the window when Young chose it as his venue for his confrontation with Rush. Rush wanted to study the first sign of civilisation they had found. It would probably be in the Destineers' best interest but Young didn't let him do his job.

Rush was in the wrong to do what he did. Rush admits that to Young right before Young takes a swing at Rush. The really hard part about Rush's character is his willingness to do things he knows are wrong because he believes taking that action is the lesser of two evils or the bad action will, in the long run, contribute to the "greater good."

While I understand Rush's actions I cannot condone them. He should have confronted Young directly and attempted to have him removed from command via proper channels. Framing Young for murder is way beyond the pale.

Likewise, Rush's actions in no way justify Young attacking Rush and marooning him on a planet with no practical way to get off, go home, or get back to Destiny. Particularly, when he felt the need to lie about his actions when he got back to Destiny.

To summerize I think both Rush and Young are terribly flawed men. It's what makes them interesting.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

...

To summerize I think both Rush and Young are terribly flawed men. It's what makes them interesting.

which is what I like about them both Green!

[yanna]

Rush was in the wrong to do what he did. Rush admits that to Young right before Young takes a swing at Rush. The really hard part about Rush's character is his willingness to do things he knows are wrong because he believes taking that action is the lesser of two evils or the bad action will, in the long run, contribute to the "greater good."

While I understand Rush's actions I cannot condone them. He should have confronted Young directly and attempted to have him removed from command via proper channels. Framing Young for murder is way beyond the pale.

I completely agree with you regarding Rush's actions. However, I believe that he did try other means of taking control before resorting to framing Young for murder. Young's inflexibility drove him to his breaking point.

I'm not blind to Rush's faults. He indirectly caused Franklin's death. He stranded them all just to satisfy his curiosity and his obsession with Destiny shows little regard for the others on the ship.

I think the problem is whether I can see Young as a character I can root for after that attempted murder and I'm sorry, I just can't. The fact that Young is a liar, a very poor military leader and an extremely rude and unpleasant man certainly doesn't help. Not to even get into the stone sex (and the fact that he had been friends with Telford before the brainwashing adds an extra level of ewwww there) and his extramarital affair with a subordinate.

In short, no, I wouldn't trust him. My choices for command would be Telford (if he survives), Wray (I really don't hate her), Scott (he's green but at least he has a conscience and he can work well with scientists) and Varro (pretty1!!! and he can be a go between in case the Lucian Alliance stays on the ship). All of the choices would be problematic but I believe the Destineers would have a far better chance of survival.

[PTree]

I completely agree with you regarding Rush's actions. However, I believe that he did try other means of taking control before resorting to framing Young for murder. Young's inflexibility drove him to his breaking point.

I'm not blind to Rush's faults. He indirectly caused Franklin's death. He stranded them all just to satisfy his curiosity and his obsession with Destiny shows little regard for the others on the ship.

I think the problem is whether I can see Young as a character I can root for after that attempted murder and I'm sorry, I just can't. The fact that Young is a liar, a very poor military leader and an extremely rude and unpleasant man certainly doesn't help. Not to even get into the stone sex (and the fact that he had been friends with Telford before the brainwashing adds an extra level of ewwww there) and his extramarital affair with a subordinate.

In short, no, I wouldn't trust him. My choices for command would be Telford (if he survives), Wray (I really don't hate her), Scott (he's green but at least he has a conscience and he can work well with scientists) and Varro (pretty1!!! and he can be a go between in case the Lucian Alliance stays on the ship). All of the choices would be problematic but I believe the Destineers would have a far better chance of survival.

I couldn't agree more about Young. Having flawed characters might be interesting, but making them completely unlikable (at least in my case) doesn't make for lasting viewership. After Chloe, Young is my least favorite character. I'm not too fond of Rush, either.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Yanna, PTree,

I like Young. I think he's a decent man dealing with extraordinary circumstances.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

Yanna, PTree,

I like Young. I think he's a decent man dealing with extraordinary circumstances.

for me that's what it always comes down to as well

[Kaiphantom]

You forget this from Darkness:


A completely unnecessary and unfounded accusation.

Heh, nearly forgot about that line. Yeah, Young had an antagonistic streak towards Rush early on, but in all fairness to him, Young was logically stating two possible scenarios, either of which could be accurate. At the end of light, he pretty much abandoned any veneer of trust towards Rush, despite Rush's actions, and openly accused him. Which is jarring, because Young said earlier that Rush was right about the power situation. There wasn't much else Rush could have done to earn trust during those two episodes, and yet Young's opinion of Rush degenerated. It's very... disturbing on Young's end, which is why I can't trust Young.

Rush, I can trust, because I know exactly what motivates him and what his reasons are. The greater good, science, and cold logic. Neither of those is justification for something like stranding them on Destiny, but because I know Rush, I know he'd do something like that, and know the reason why. So I can trust him to find a way to fix problems on the ship, but not completely rely on him to find a way home (he might not be so eager to do that). I can dislike some of his actions, while knowing and trusting him on others.

Young, I dislike his actions, but he's so all over the place that I don't know what he'll do next... only that he'll make a bad decision.