In Young we trust

[Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble]

I doubt O'neil would have vented the atmosphere if it where Daniel. Carters situation was different, the planet was about to explode and there was 200+ people on the ship. Rush was left on the planet because he framed Young for Murder and tampered with a crime scene, so he saw a dead man and thought I can use that is premeditation where as Young stranded Rush on a snap witch was wrong. They called a truce after Divided let bigons be bigons.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

I agree that it has been a major plot point, but that doesn't make it something we should take as gospel. I think the writers are creating an arc for his character, using the crew's feelings to portray a lack of confidence makes the viewer question his competence, and thus makes his "comeback" even more of an achievement. How many people honestly thought he had gone off the deep end when he put Telford through the wringer, yet he turned out to know something we didn't, and turned out to be right. It is an excellent storytelling device, and redemption of our heroes is always good to see, but they have to fall before they can get up. It just seems to me that no sooner does he prove himself than he is being ragged on for his next "mistake".

I agree that he's being written to fail, most likely so that when he comes up from behind it isn't seen as another "ho hum, he saves the day...again" sort of scenario but as something that he's won after a struggle. Ragging on Young is a national pastime, it seems

For a military commander, questioning your own competence can be as dangerous as the lack of competence. The difference is that sometimes an emergency situation can force said commander to put their feelings aside, and because the skill set still exists, they can shoot from bad to excellent very quickly. Young turned the Destiny command down because as he said to O'Neill "I don't think it's still in me, Sir". In those circumstances sometimes it takes someone else to recognise the talent and convince the other of their competence. O'Neill believed in Young and still does.

Yes, I agree, and the inverse is also true - a leader so confident that he never doubts anything he does is just as awful. I believe that O'Neill still believes in Young.

Indecisive? One time he hesitated for a few seconds (and be honest if he had pushed the button straight away it would have taken 60 seconds to evacuate the gateroom and it took 5 seconds for the LA members to put on breathing apparatus and get the door openers in place) and now he is not fit for command?

YOUNG: How long will it take to reach vacuum?
(Volker looks at Brody thoughtfully.)
VOLKER: A minute or so?
BRODY: That's about right.

Yep, even more than a minute - a minute or so! That might not seem like a long time but trust me, that's a long damned time! Maybe the initial plan would have worked, sure. Maybe. But it sure as hell didn't take Kiva's people that long to put on masks and get those doors open, so maybe it wouldn't have accomplished anything other than to severely piss her off and make any negotiations later something impossible to carry out. Again, see above - bagging on Young is a favorite pastime, it wouldn't have mattered what he did.

See I see something else, I see him about to put his plan into action. Again I go back to the ending where he was torturing Telford. The end of the episode ocurred before we found out what his plan was. That has happened again, its just we have to wait months instead of days before we find out what it is and that he didn't deserve the blame after all.

He's got parts of a plan put in action. Currently, due to circumstances not fully in their control, NO ONE has full control of Destiny, but Rush, Brody, Eli, Scott and Greer and even Chloe are outside the reach of the LA and if anyone is capable of getting the Destiny's controls back, it's Eli and Rush, not to discount Brody. Once that control comes back, the plan Young and Telford put in place to have all the civilians herded into a single room and vent the surrounding areas may well come to fruition. Young and the military may well go berserk when those lights flicker and finally go off and they overwhelm the LA that have been sent in, and thus free themselves. All sorts of things are at that moment when everything is in play but nothing has completed yet phase. And yeah, we do have to wait. I for one am willing to wait and give him the benefit of the doubt.

[bobsuncorp]

I also saw in a post on another thread someone suggested that before he returned the 4 LA members back to Kiva he ran them through the stone room and had them "replaced" with SGC personnel. 4 trojan horses just waiting for the moment to strike.

For some reason the person who put that theory forward didn't like it, but I LOVE IT! That is just the kind of plan that I am talking about.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

I also saw in a post on another thread someone suggested that before he returned the 4 LA members back to Kiva he ran them through the stone room and had them "replaced" with SGC personnel. 4 trojan horses just waiting for the moment to strike.

For some reason the person who put that theory forward didn't like it, but I LOVE IT! That is just the kind of plan that I am talking about.

that's provided they have control of the stone room and have someone to watch over what's happening and also, those 4 LA guys that you've switched with are now on YOUR side of the fence, capable of just as much trouble, so you've got to have someone watch over them as well. Plus, if anyone on the other side suspects, you're looking at four more of your own people dead. It's always the details

[bobsuncorp]

that's provided they have control of the stone room and have someone to watch over what's happening and also, those 4 LA guys that you've switched with are now on YOUR side of the fence, capable of just as much trouble, so you've got to have someone watch over them as well. Plus, if anyone on the other side suspects, you're looking at four more of your own people dead. It's always the details

Well we know that they have the stone room because Young has reported to O'Neill. And I you're right they would need to tie them to chairs before they switched.

The biggest problem I see is that Kiva would spot the Trojans before they were ready to move. She has already proven herself to be very clever at that sort of thing.

[yanna]

I see Young as another obstacle that the rest of the Destineers have to overcome. He needs to be relieved of command before he kills them all.

Exactly what am I to trust about him? How he let the ship fall in the hands of the Lucian Alliance? How he didn't share with anyone what the hell he was trying to achieve with Telford and nearly killed both Telford and Rush? Would it kill him to tell Scott what he had in mind instead of expecting him to follow him blindly like his faithful pit bull, Greer? How while Rush was frying his brains on the chair, Young let his other brilliant scientist go down on the planet to play explorer? And lost him, of course. How he has tried to kill Rush on numerous occasions? The fact that he marooned him then lied about it and continued lying.

I don't undrestand his newfound morals. He was perfectly willing to kill both Rush and Chloe and blow up Destiny shooting recklessly back when the Blues attacked. Now all of a sudden he can't bear to hurt one person to save everyone? What happened to acceptable losses? Or it doesn't work that way when it's his buddy?

I don't think it's because he has PTSD or whatever. He's just dangerously incompetent.

[bobsuncorp]

I see Young as another obstacle that the rest of the Destineers have to overcome. He needs to be relieved of command before he kills them all.

Wow. Ok. (deep breath)

Exactly what am I to trust about him? How he let the ship fall in the hands of the Lucian Alliance?

That was the plan. Unless he planned to kill most of his crew in a frontal assault against a fortified, fanatical and ruthless enemy, he had to find a smart way to deal with them. Hence the misdirect of pretending to surrender so he could get all his people (including the hostages) in one area and space the rest. Unfortunately no plan survives contact with the enemy, and at worst he was optomistic in his planning, at best the plan is not done yet, just the episode. The fat lady ain't sung yet dude.

How he didn't share with anyone what the hell he was trying to achieve with Telford and nearly killed both Telford and Rush?

If he had told anyone else he would also have been telling Evil-Telford. He had to keep an eye on him which means any conversation would have been overheard. Or if you want to look at it another way, it would have screwed up the cliffhanger.

Would it kill him to tell Scott what he had in mind instead of expecting him to follow him blindly like his faithful pit bull, Greer?

Yeah it's almost like he was acting like his C.O.

How while Rush was frying his brains on the chair, Young let his other brilliant scientist go down on the planet to play explorer? And lost him, of course.

Eli volunteered to go down there. He can't wrap the kid up in cotton wool, every time someone steps through the gate they are running the risk of not returning, especially with Destiny having a countdown.

How he has tried to kill Rush on numerous occasions? The fact that he marooned him then lied about it and continued lying.

First he was provoked beyond measure to do what he did. Rush made it very clear (and had been dropping hints since early episodes) that one of them had to go. Was he just supposed to hand over the ship to the guy who stranded them all there because he didn't want to lose the chance to find out what was on the other side of the 9 symbol adress? The guy who was happy to risk other people's life to sit in the chair yet clearly didn't think it was safe for him to sit in? The guy who manipulated Franklin into sitting there, framed Young for murder so that he could get someone more suggestable into command? The guy who even thought himself callous and at least until he had the dreamwalk with his wife was living up to that label? Plus he wasn't trying to kill him. Rush attacked him, they fought, Young asked him if it was over, Rush said no, they fought some more, he knocked him out, and then decided not to pick him up and carry him to the gate he only had seconds to get to. There is a very real chance that if he had carried him back neither of them would have made it and even if they had he was just inviting trouble by rescuing him. Afterward he didn't tell anyone for the same reason he didn't tell anyone about what Rush did, so that the crew would not be burdened. Not the best decision, and one he regrets but both he and I admit it as such.

I don't undrestand his newfound morals. He was perfectly willing to kill both Rush and Chloe and blow up Destiny shooting recklessly back when the Blues attacked. Now all of a sudden he can't bear to hurt one person to save everyone? What happened to acceptable losses? Or it doesn't work that way when it's his buddy?

He risked his life (yet again) to go and rescue Chloe. He found Rush first, and instead of leaving him to continue to look for Chloe rescued him. The connection was then broken and he tried to go back but by that time Rush had been forced to kill the alien and he had no way of returning. At that point he had to return fire or lose everyone on the ship, he had done all he could and had to leave it up to Rush.

Evacuating the air out of the gateroom would (he believed) have killed 2 people not just 1. And he didn't do it because of RUSH not Telford. By that point he had realised he made the wrong decision with Rush and wasn't going to do it again.

I don't think it's because he has PTSD or whatever. He's just dangerously incompetent.

As opposed to benevolent Rush or super woman Wray? Judge him by his results when all the information is in.

[Shai Hulud]

They really should have kept his limp, the character would just have been better somehow.

[Kaiphantom]

In the 3 parts of "Air" I liked him. It was obvious he was trying his best, and was willing to sacrifice himself to save the crew. In Darkness, I could tell he was a bit antagonistic to Rush, but overall he seemed to handle it decently and trusted Rush on the power issue.

At the end of "Light," though, I couldn't believe it when he stood there and basically accused Rush of holding back information or misleading the crew.

From there, it was downhill, after he made bad decision after bad decision, culminating with him marooning Rush. The only bright spot was him stepping him down and assigning Scott to investigate the murder, and stepping down afterward rather than have doubt among the crew.

But yes, he has been very dictatorish. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. For those young defenders, even HE admitted it in Faith I think: "Look, they didn't try to take over because I was doing a bang-up job." He admitted he was doing poorly enough that people really wanted him gone. This is when I started to like him again, because he seemed to be trying to take a more diplomatic and conciliatory approach; in short, character growth.

With Incursion, though, I have to say I still see his flaws as being unable to make the really tough calls, which made me question how he became a colonel in the first place. Unless he learns to do so, he does not belong in command. I've noticed the pattern that, with quite a few of the "right" decisions he's made, have not been out of concern... but out of a desire for death for self-destruction. He's quick to try and sacrifice himself. That's not someone you want in charge.

So, who should lead? It's a fair question. I'm not sure myself, so I'd like to see some others step up to see what they can do. Rush, much as I love the guy, his coldly logical style wouldn't sit well with the crew, and he has no real desire to lead... just to conduct science and study the ship.

Wray? I actually like to see her in charge for a fairly long time, and see how she handles under the difficult choices. Maybe she's better, maybe she's worse, but I won't know until I see it.

So rather than defend Young with a the irrational fervor of a religious fundamentalist, I'll call him out using logic. No, I don't really trust him as a leader. Trust him to make the necessary self-sacrifice? Sure, but that's about it.

[Avenger]

Rush was pretty greasy early in the season and he was the one responsible for everyone being on Destiny. Young not trusting him and accusing him of withholding information and misleading the crew wasn't off base.

[Kaiphantom]

Rush was pretty greasy early in the season and he was the one responsible for everyone being on Destiny. Young not trusting him and accusing him of withholding information and misleading the crew wasn't off base.

In Air part 2, when Young realized Rush hadn't said anything about an address to Earth, I would agree with you. But in Light, Young should have known better. As young himself said, Rush made a sacrifice in staying, and clearly expected to die along with the rest. And then he helped saved the shuttle crew, and during the midst of a celebration he accuses Rush? Everyone else was right when they said "Let it go."

How would you like it if I said: "Avenger, you seem greasy to me. You are deliberately withholding information, because you know I'm right and insist on being different just to troll the thread."

Makes me seem stupid, eh?

[Avenger]

Like it or not, first impressions are difficult to change. One good deed isn't going to be enough to erase a poor first impression, particularly something as massive as stranding everyone billions of light years away from home with no chance of getting home.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

....

So rather than defend Young with a the irrational fervor of a religious fundamentalist, I'll call him out using logic......

wow, really?

[bobsuncorp]

At the end of "Light," though, I couldn't believe it when he stood there and basically accused Rush of holding back information or misleading the crew.

That may have been unfounded, but remember that Rush DID intentionally mislead the crew with the fake Icarus planet data. And why did he do that? Not so that he could make people feel better like he claimed but so that he could study that damn chair. Watch his face when Young calls him on it if you don't believe me, he was furious.

But yes, he has been very dictatorish. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. For those young defenders, even HE admitted it in Faith I think: "Look, they didn't try to take over because I was doing a bang-up job." He admitted he was doing poorly enough that people really wanted him gone.

He actually said that he knew that people didn't THINK he was doing a bang up job. I'm not nitpicking, I think it is an important distinction. He is truly the focus of everyone's unhappiness and blame for their situation, and that was the resentment exploding. He is not as empathetic as Scott, but Destiny needs a tough guy more than they need a nice guy right now.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I think Young is a fundementally good person who is in way over his head. That said I don't think anyone else in this circumstance with these people could do much better than Young has. I think they may not have made the mistakes Young has made, but to assume they wouldn't have simply made different mistakes is foolish.

As Young said from the get go, "These are the wrong people." Part of the reason the SG-teams work so well is I imagine they are carefully selected so that their skills compliment each other and they work together. This is a group of refugees trying to hack it out as best they can. No one would be able to create a happy go lucky team in this environment.