getting along

[Nataku27]

Exactly. The military and civillians are just starting to work together and they had a mutiny. Put a bunch of enemy pirates onboard...

You know I just thought of something. Season 1 was all about the civies and military learning together. Season 2 will seem to be about the Taur'i and LA learning to work together. So Season 3 humans and aliens will have to work together? Season 4 organics and machines will have to learn together. Season 5... non-ascended beings and ascended beings having to work together? I think I've figured out the SGU plot formula.

With the actual ratings, I hope we will get at least a season 3 :s

And yes , unless the LA kill all the crew, somehow they will have to support each other.

[Kanten]

After several rewatches I'm starting to debate how "evil" the LA actually is. Space criminals yes, untrustworthy yes, but I'm not sure the military's image of them of "evil for the sake of evil" is entirely true, I'm seeing a lot more grey areas than the SG-1 version of them. It wasn't until Young broke his word that Kiva started shooting people.

Even at the end when the bald guy decided to go crazy, he was only targeting the military personnel when it would have seemed more convenient to just start offing everyone on the ship. Apart from Rush and maybe Eli, there isn't a lot of tactical value to keep most of them around.

[KEK]

Why we can't get along? Young gave the LA a chance to surrender peacefully without bloodshed. Their response attack, take hostages, then start executing said hostages. The LA didn't want to 'get along with us'

Correction - Kiva didn't.

Unless you consider Kiva's 'disarm and surrender to us' a valid peaceful solution.

It's exactly the same as the one Young proposed. It would be slightly hypocritical of you to consider it otherwise.

Every agrement or promise the LA have made they've broken.

No more than Young/Earth has. Young promised medical supplies, and instead tried to storm the place, the humans from Earth are hardly trustworthy either.

Their thieves, murderers, thugs, and who knows what other horrible things.

It's not like the Tau'ri have never stolen or murdered anyone. You can't judge an entire civilization on the actions of the few, I mean, I haven't seen any race on Stargate do anything worse than what humans on Earth have done to each other for centuries.

[GateroomGuard]

Correction - Kiva didn't.



It's exactly the same as the one Young proposed. It would be slightly hypocritical of you to consider it otherwise.



No more than Young/Earth has. Young promised medical supplies, and instead tried to storm the place, the humans from Earth are hardly trustworthy either.



It's not like the Tau'ri have never stolen or murdered anyone. You can't judge an entire civilization on the actions of the few, I mean, I haven't seen any race on Stargate do anything worse than what humans on Earth have done to each other for centuries.

And the rest of the LA showed no problem with it. There wasn't even one of them shaking their head in silent disgust, or showing any sympathy to the hostages. Not one of them stood up to stop Kiva from shooting a pregnant woman. At least when Earth did morally reprehensible things we had people to voice disgust at those actions.

It was Earths ship! They were already there! And the LA should know that we don't execute or mistreat our prisoners. When offered peace and a chance to discover the secrets of Destiny for the good of all humans they decided that would only be acceptable if they were in charge.

The LA has never given any evidence that they are trustworthy. It's foolish to think an enemy that has proven itself to be untrustworthy at every turn is trustworthy.

When the SGC had murderes or thieves in their ranks they were arrested or killed. When the LA has the same they get promoted. We have our own scum just like the LA, the difference is we don't treat it as a valid business.

[Kanten]

When the SGC had murderes or thieves in their ranks they were arrested or killed.

Jack wasn't (The Other Side)

Whether the guy was guilty of genocide was something for the law to deal with, not a snap decision to flat out kill the guy.

Looking back, I'm still a little disappointed that incident was never mentioned again.

It seems heavily implied that the Milky Way was more destabilized by the fall of the Goa'uld and the arrival of the Ori than it ever was beforehand, so it makes sense that some people would be a little unwilling to cooperate with Earth.

[myhelix]

The "getting along" part you mentioned seems to be very difficult at the moment.
Mainly because Kiva ruthlessly killed a Destiny crew member. The bold LA guy is not willing to let Greer and Scott inside the ship again.
Rush isn´t fond of the Alliance either, after the "torture" thing. Young will go mad when he find out that TJ and Chloe properly on the brink of death after they get shot by the LA (accidentally or not.) The same goes for Eli and Scott. Maybe Riley is dead, too? Telford is a traitor on both sides. And we even don´t know who will get the upper hand in this confrontation. And it seems that the stupid LA group don´t bring much supply's with them, too. So more explosive issues!

[KEK]

And the rest of the LA showed no problem with it. There wasn't even one of them shaking their head in silent disgust, or showing any sympathy to the hostages. Not one of them stood up to stop Kiva from shooting a pregnant woman. At least when Earth did morally reprehensible things we had people to voice disgust at those actions.

In the previous episode Kiva had her lead scientist murdered in cold blood for incompetence, do you really think the rest of her people are going to start questioning her decisions? They're probably terrified of her, as I'm sure many people living under oppressive regimes are of their leader.

It was Earths ship! They were already there!

They were already there, but it doesn't belong to them.

When offered peace and a chance to discover the secrets of Destiny for the good of all humans they decided that would only be acceptable if they were in charge.

Young took the exact same stance.

The LA has never given any evidence that they are trustworthy. It's foolish to think an enemy that has proven itself to be untrustworthy at every turn is trustworthy.

Like I've said, you're judging an entire civilization based on the actions of the corrupt few that are in power, do you not realise how narrow minded and bigoted that is? It's like judging all Iraqis based on what Saddam did. They're all just human beings like we are.

When the SGC had murderes or thieves in their ranks they were arrested or killed.

SG-1 are murderers and thieves. They've stolen lots of technology, and committed countless assassinations.

[Kanten]

One thing's for certain, the new LA regime has been a basis for plenty of discussion and debate.

Definitely beats Netan's "dick for the sake of being a dick" way of running things.

[GateroomGuard]

Jack wasn't (The Other Side)

Whether the guy was guilty of genocide was something for the law to deal with, not a snap decision to flat out kill the guy.
Looking back, I'm still a little disappointed that incident was never mentioned again.

I honestly have no problem with what Jack did, In the words of Batman "I won't kill you but I don't have to save you either." That guy knew we had an Iris and he took the risk that we would close it.

In the previous episode Kiva had her lead scientist murdered in cold blood for incompetence, do you really think the rest of her people are going to start questioning her decisions? They're probably terrified of her, as I'm sure many people living under oppressive regimes are of their leader.

I fail to see how their cowardice makes me like them better. The fact that they know something is wrong and they don't stand up makes them more guilty in my mind.

They were already there, but it doesn't belong to them.

It is theirs because they are there and the Lucian Alliance knows they are there. If I take shelter in a cave because of a storm and some guy comes up with a gun telling me to get out he's stealing my shelter because I found it and I was there first. If the LA were there first then It would be a different story.

Young took the exact same stance.

Yes because Young knows he won't strangle his people to death to make a point or torture them. Young knows the only way his people are safe is if they are under his protection and not a murdering pirate like Kiva.

Like I've said, you're judging an entire civilization based on the actions of the corrupt few that are in power, do you not realise how narrow minded and bigoted that is? It's like judging all Iraqis based on what Saddam did. They're all just human beings like we are.

The LA are not a civilization they are a criminal organization. And I can only base my views on what I've seen. And All I've seen from the LA are murderers, pirates, and cowards. If they show me different I'll change my assessment.

SG-1 are murderers and thieves. They've stolen lots of technology, and committed countless assassinations.

They took technology from the Goua'ld System Lords. An enemy or Earth and a moral evil. They also assassinated said System Lords. I have no problem with it because 1. the Goua'ld were evil. 2. It's War.

[KEK]

I
I fail to see how their cowardice makes me like them better. The fact that they know something is wrong and they don't stand up makes them more guilty in my mind.

It's not supposed to make you like them, it's supposed to explain how they could be both good people, yet not stand up, as most people would do, just as all of the military personnel seem to do when Young acts like a maniac. Would you sacrifice your life for the sake of speaking out, if you know it would ultimately achieve nothing? I suspect not.

It is theirs because they are there and the Lucian Alliance knows they are there. If I take shelter in a cave because of a storm and some guy comes up with a gun telling me to get out he's stealing my shelter because I found it and I was there first. If the LA were there first then It would be a different story.

It makes no difference whatsoever. The right thing to do would be to have found a way to work together, but neither leader were willing, they both wanted complete control.

The LA are not a civilization they are a criminal organization. And I can only base my views on what I've seen. And All I've seen from the LA are murderers, pirates, and cowards. If they show me different I'll change my assessment.

You sound like a Fox News anchor. They're human beings, you can't pigeon hole them all like that. Everyone is capable of being trustworthy no matter their background, Vala being a prime example.

They took technology from the Goua'ld System Lords. An enemy or Earth and a moral evil. They also assassinated said System Lords. I have no problem with it because 1. the Goua'ld were evil. 2. It's War.

Whether you have a problem with it isn't really relevant, if you want to differentiate between the Lucian Alliance and Earth then you're going to have to use different reasoning, as thieving and murder doesn't separate them.

[GateroomGuard]

It's not supposed to make you like them, it's supposed to explain how they could be both good people, yet not stand up, as most people would do, just as all of the military personnel seem to do when Young acts like a maniac. Would you sacrifice your life for the sake of speaking out, if you know it would ultimately achieve nothing? I suspect not.

If you don't have the moral courage to speak out against evil being commited right in front of you you are worse than than the person commiting the act. When Young did something questionable nearly everyone other than Greer questioned him. When Kiva murders someone the rest of the LA do nothing. So either they are all like Kiva and evil, or they are cowards which makes them worse in my eyes. I've had ancestors who gave their lives for what was right, I pray I'll have their strength if I ever have to.

It makes no difference whatsoever. The right thing to do would be to have found a way to work together, but neither leader were willing, they both wanted complete control.

Young tried and Kiva started killing people. The only way they could have worked together is if Young surrendered his people to Kiva. And surrendering your people to a bunch of murderers and pirates should not be an option.

You sound like a Fox News anchor. They're human beings, you can't pigeon hole them all like that. Everyone is capable of being trustworthy no matter their background, Vala being a prime example.

Human beings are evil and corrupt from birth. In my view there are no 'good' people. There are those that are evil, and those that try not to be evil. NONE of the LA have shown any sign that they are trustworthy, in a military situation you can't hope that your enemy is made up of good people you have to go by the evidence and assume the worst. I say again if I see a member of the LA prove that they are at least trying to do the right thing I'll change my stance, but none of them have shown anything other than the usual murdering and pirating. Vala proved her trust, the LA have only proved their distrust.

Whether you have a problem with it isn't really relevant, if you want to differentiate between the Lucian Alliance and Earth then you're going to have to use different reasoning, as thieving and murder doesn't separate them.

Judging actions without taking context into account is foolish. The SGC killed the Goaul'd because they were Earths enemy, they took their technology to help fight against the Goau'ld and threats like them. And the SGC did so while doing their utmost to do the most good for the galaxy and use the most moral actions as possible. Even when we had our enemy prisoner we didn't hold them hostage and execute them, we didn't torture them. Rouge elements may have but those elements were treated as the enemy as well. The Lucian Alliance grabed as much power and ships as they could to enforce their criminal empires power over the Milky Ways people through murder, intimidation, and addiction. They used methods morally reprehensible and showed no concern for the good of the galaxy.

[KEK]

If you don't have the moral courage to speak out against evil being commited right in front of you you are worse than than the person commiting the act. When Young did something questionable nearly everyone other than Greer questioned him. When Kiva murders someone the rest of the LA do nothing. So either they are all like Kiva and evil, or they are cowards which makes them worse in my eyes.

I can't fathom this reasoning if I'm honest, and I doubt many others would either. Cowardice worse than murder? Bizarre.

Young tried and Kiva started killing people. The only way they could have worked together is if Young surrendered his people to Kiva. And surrendering your people to a bunch of murderers and pirates should not be an option.

Young never tried to work with them, he told them to surrender or he'd murder them all in cold blood.

Human beings are evil and corrupt from birth. In my view there are no 'good' people. There are those that are evil, and those that try not to be evil.

An incredibly naive and backward outlook in my view, the world isn't black and white.

NONE of the LA have shown any sign that they are trustworthy, in a military situation you can't hope that your enemy is made up of good people you have to go by the evidence and assume the worst. I say again if I see a member of the LA prove that they are at least trying to do the right thing I'll change my stance, but none of them have shown anything other than the usual murdering and pirating. Vala proved her trust, the LA have only proved their distrust.

We're not talking about military situations here, we're talking about whether any of the Lucian Alliance forces can ever be considered trustworthy. Originally you said they could not, but now you seem to be back-tracking and saying they're all untrustworthy until proven otherwise, which is obvious, and a point which no one was disputing. The point is, anyone can become trustworthy, there's no such thing as good people and evil people, or inherently trustworthy ones or untrustworthy ones, we all have the capacity to be both, and to dismiss the possibility of these people being trustworthy in the future just because of their affiliations is ludicrous.

[GateroomGuard]

I can't fathom this reasoning if I'm honest, and I doubt many others would either. Cowardice worse than murder? Bizarre.

Someone doing evil is bad. Someone allowing someone to commit evil when the know it is evil is worse.

Young never tried to work with them, he told them to surrender or he'd murder them all in cold blood.

They were an enemy force. There was nothing wrong with Youngs plan to vent the atmosphere. A successful ambush of an enemy is not murder. If Young had let them all just waltz in Kiva would demand Youngs people disarm, Young could either disarm or fight back. If he disarms his people then Kiva can do whatever she wants with them. Letting a murderer like Kiva being in charge of your people is criminal. Letting the rest of the LA have power to do whatever they want to the crew is worse. Putting a bunch of civillians and women under the power of a bunch of pirates shouldn't even be considered an option for Young.

An incredibly naive and backward outlook in my view, the world isn't black and white.

In my opinion morality is universal and timeless. There is a right and a wrong and the SGC has aired on the right as much as possible while the LA has aired on the wrong on every occasion.

We're not talking about military situations here, we're talking about whether any of the Lucian Alliance forces can ever be considered trustworthy. Originally you said they could not, but now you seem to be back-tracking and saying they're all untrustworthy until proven otherwise, which is obvious, and a point which no one was disputing. The point is, anyone can become trustworthy, there's no such thing as good people and evil people, or inherently trustworthy ones or untrustworthy ones, we all have the capacity to be both, and to dismiss the possibility of these people being trustworthy in the future just because of their affiliations is ludicrous.

The LA can't be considered trustworthy in my opinion because they've done nothing to show they can be trustworthy. Because of that, unless new evidence presents itself I'm going to assume all the LA are untrustworthy. If every dog I meet bites me I'm going to assume the next dog I see is going to do the same. And this is a military situation when dealing with an enemy force. The LA declared war on Earth and they are the enemy. If any of the LA wish to be friendly with Earth or show that Earth can trust them they should prove it. But as of now what has any of the LA on Destiny done to show that any of the crew can trust them? What has any of the LA done to show they aren't murderers and pirates? Yes the LA people have the capacity to earn Earth's trust, they have the capactiy to try to do good, but they've not even tried to do either.

[KEK]

Someone doing evil is bad. Someone allowing someone to commit evil when the know it is evil is worse.

Yes, I know that's what you believe, I just don't understand why.

They were an enemy force. There was nothing wrong with Youngs plan to vent the atmosphere. A successful ambush of an enemy is not murder. If Young had let them all just waltz in Kiva would demand Youngs people disarm, Young could either disarm or fight back. If he disarms his people then Kiva can do whatever she wants with them. Letting a murderer like Kiva being in charge of your people is criminal. Letting the rest of the LA have power to do whatever they want to the crew is worse. Putting a bunch of civillians and women under the power of a bunch of pirates shouldn't even be considered an option for Young.

You're missing the point. I'm pointing out that your reasoning is contradicting your argument. I'm not arguing that Young was wrong to do what he did, only that what he did is the exact same thing you're criticising the LA of doing. Also, the LA were effectively imprisoned in the gate room, interesting that venting the air while they were helpless is OK, but executing a hostage isn't.

In my opinion morality is universal and timeless.

Then your opinion is wrong, morality is a human construct, and relative to each person. If it's universal, then where are you getting it from?

The LA can't be considered trustworthy in my opinion because they've done nothing to show they can be trustworthy. Because of that, unless new evidence presents itself I'm going to assume all the LA are untrustworthy.

They're human beings, that's proof enough that they're capable of being trustworthy. Everyone is. To say we simply can't get along is ridiculous, and something I'm almost certain will be proven wrong next season.

[GateroomGuard]

Yes, I know that's what you believe, I just don't understand why.

Well I can say the same for your opinions, no hard feelings.

You're missing the point. I'm pointing out that your reasoning is contradicting your argument. I'm not arguing that Young was wrong to do what he did, only that what he did is the exact same thing you're criticising the LA of doing. Also, the LA were effectively imprisoned in the gate room, interesting that venting the air while they were helpless is OK, but executing a hostage isn't.

Kiva's people had the Stargate and the shuttle and were invading. If someone breaks into my house and I have a gun to their head and tell them to surrender or their dead I'm in the right. If someone breaks into my house and puts a gun to my head and tells me to surrender or I'm dead, they are always in the wrong. The LA weren't helpless prisoners, they were heavily armed and more than capable of defending themselves. Threatenting an armed enemy is different than shooting a prisoner of war.

Then your opinion is wrong, morality is a human construct, and relative to each person. If it's universal, then where are you getting it from?

In my opinion morality is given to us by God and is universal and timeless.

They're human beings, that's proof enough that they're capable of being trustworthy. Everyone is. To say we simply can't get along is ridiculous, and something I'm almost certain will be proven wrong next season.

The fact that they are human beings makes them untrustworthy. Until they prove they are trustworthy they are untrustworthy. The LA have not shown any signs of being trustworthy so they are untrustworthy in my eyes and should be treated as such. If they want us to trust them they have to earn that trust, and they have a long way to go after what they've done. And I have no doubt that some of the LA will earn our trust next season, after a long period of proving they are trustworthy and repentent for the crimes they commited of course.