'Incursion, Part 2' (120) General Discussion

[Blackhole]

I'd agree with the "leader making a mistake" if it were a simple mistake anyone could make. Like forgetting to lock down the doors because he thought venting the atmosphere would beat them. But this isn't Napoleon at Waterloo making a tactical error, Young had a complete lack of backup plans which i found ridiculous. A layered defense isn't a hard concept.Hell my five year old cousin one ambushed me with a water bucket on top of a door FFS. It could be as simple as coating the floor with grease/oil and the LA suddenly can't maneuver properly so the venting could take effect. They can wash the grease/oil off later, it's not like they're using the gate that very instant.

He's a Full Bird Colonel. If everyday joes see those options and would go for them, how much more would a full bird colonel with combat experience know? How much redundancy does the military do when running an operation?

I think Young completely crumbled in this episode and was paralyzed by his fear of hurting any of his own people. And you are right he had no backup plans.

[Blackhole]

Err funny you should bring Napoleon up because there was a man who failed spectacularly to have any back up plans at Waterloo, committing his main force to a frontal attack on Wellington and leaving his right flank totally exposed to the Prussians. Or the commanders of Operation Eagle Claw, the failed operation rescue hostages from Iran in the 1980's, who were still arguing over the plan for the operation as it actually started. Or the decision to disband the Iraqi army after the 2003 invasion, in which no plans were made for what to do with the hundreds of thousands of armed young men who had just been released on to the streets of Iraq. So yes screwing up terribly and having no plans happens all the time.

Good points.

[Demerzel]

And maybe Greer really does have some medic experience, too. With T.J. down, someone is going to have to do the medic stuff pronto; at least to start with. Mind-transfer stones to earth or not.

A lot of military personnel have basic medical training. So it wouldn't be surprising if Greer did have some basic medical knowledge even though he hasn't showed it yet.

[Pharaoh Atem]

All this to get new people on board? Sorry but if LA joins the crew this show has lost the little credibility it has left. What is this. Star Trek Voyager 2010 ???

chloe - 7 of 9

[Blackhole]

The actual operators couldn't decide on a curse of action themselves during eagle claw. The entire failure of the operation lead to the formation of USSOCOM, because of the failure of the various forces to work together in a meaningful way.

At Waterloo Napoleon committed his entire force to Wellington, leaving no reserve for the Prussians. Further he had no contingency plans should the campaign go bad, no reserves, once defeated at Waterloo, he was quickly capitulated.

Finally the decision to disband the Iraqi army was a decision that effected the military that was made with the help of the military commanders in Iraq, it meant that there was a shortage in man power to provide security, a new army had to be trained and equipped and it lead to a direct increase in insurgents.

Young bottled it, the entire situation can be laid at his feet because he did not act quickly enough in venting the atmosphere of the Gateroom. He had a failure in judgement, it happens. That's why he went to command a back water base rather than a frontline team, because he didn't have it in him.

You ask previously how did Young become a Colonel? Because at one point he could make those hard choices, but people change, and not everyone can stomach making those hard choices each day. Young is more than likely a PTSD suffererer, he has vivid memories of traumatic events, such as the attack on base by the LA as mentioned in Subversion, he has persistent avoidance to the idea that he will lose any more people, it his berserk button, he can't face it. On top of this he has significant problems with anger. Combat often changes in people and it has not left Young in a good mental state.

Further PTSD is often difficult to diagnose, people in the military are often unwilling to admit they have a problem, for fear of appearing weak or losing their position. Young's been affected further by having been thrust into a situation where he was unprepared and has had several months of intense pressure. People crack under that kind of strain.

I wanted to give Young the benefit of the doubt but based on his performance in this last episode I think you are right that Young is emotionality damaged and doesn't have what it takes to continue in command of Destiny.

[Coronach]

chloe - 7 of 9

Nowai, don't you remember? Chloe is totally a clone of Starbuck!!11

[Demerzel]

Nowai, don't you remember? Chloe is totally a clone of Starbuck!!11

lol? Those two characters couldn't be any more different.

[Commander Zelix]

It really bothered me how Young so completely lost his control once Kiva had taken hostages. Even if everything works out (Which I expect as a TV show it probably mostly will.), how Young completely screwed up is going to bother me forever.

People never screw up in real life? Most of the time in a first part of a 2 parter they will always be some kind of screwing up involved. On TV, it's better when characters screwing up also have some redeeming value (to generate some empathy on the viewers).

I can see him hesitating to delay the air evacuation to try to save his friend Telford but to turn over food and water and then computer control to Kiva was incredibly, incredibly, incredibly, stupid.

Ok, giving out the computer control was kind of strange but he had a plan to get back the control by using his inside mole (Telford).

The thing that I really didn't understand is how everybody got captured at the end. I didn't rewatch the episode. I was like:"What just happened there". Aren't people like Young semi-automatic gun carriers and protected by soldiers? (maybe I missed something in the episode).

Once Kiva shot that hostage he should have evacuated the room to near vacuum and then sent in an armed team to dispatch any LA still consciousness; immediately followed by civilians to attempt resuscitation (if possible) of all the hostages. Rush was right, Young needed to act and cut his losses but he didn’t and was completely paralyzed by his fear of hurting anyone. Relying on Telford's plan was asinine.

Ok, he should have vented the room despite Telford being there in the previous episode. But with all the hostages there, including his wife and kid, that's simply crazy. Murderous. You would make the worst hostage negotiator in history!!

I spent the last few minutes shaking my head and uttering stupid, stupid and stupid under my breath. Unless they are planning an extended arc where LA takes over I don’t see how they can miraculously pull all their collective butts out of the fire next episode without it appearing absolutely contrived and unrealistic. We will all have to wait and see what happens.

Not because you can't see it, the writers couldn't. We'll judge the resolution when we get there.

Still personally I don't think it was a great cliffhanger. Because it was not a game changer, we don't have anything to think about (as I explained in my review above). It was a cliffhanger, it was ok.

[LtColCarter]

chloe - 7 of 9

7 of 9 is prettier.

[Commander Zelix]

chloe - 7 of 9

I wish.

If you don't have a body like 7 of 9 just don't bother wearing a catsuit ok. Yes, I'm looking at you Kira (of DS9).

[Blackhole]

So in your opinion, Young shouldn't be in charge. That's what i get from that, that he's incompetent because the stress has made him crack. If so, then i hope he loses command in Season 2.

Sorry, i don't see it. Young was smart enough to know about venting the atmosphere which is a more technical type of trap. I can't see how he wouldn't think "Hmm.. maybe we could set some other less complicated traps just in case, maybe actually venting it to start with or maybe covering the gate room floor with fuel from Greer's flamethrower. Yeah that'd be a great trap that can't really fail."

Given how much people have talked about this particular plot point, it wasn't sold well enough for me to believe that Young is so mentally gone that he was capable of such ineffectual defending.

I disagree.

Young completely lost his control once Kiva had taken hostages. Look at his emotional outburst to Park and he and Rush almost came to blows when Rush accurately criticized his tactics. I can see him hesitating to delay the air evacuation to try to save his friend Telford but to turn over food and water and then computer control to Kiva was incredibly stupid. Once Kiva shot that hostage he should have known she is not to be trusted or reasoned with. He should have evacuated the room to near vacuum to incapacitate them and then sent in an armed team to dispatch any LA still consciousness; immediately followed by civilians to attempt resuscitation (if possible) of all the hostages. Rush was right, Young needed to act and cut his losses but he didn’t and was completely paralyzed by his fear of hurting anyone. Relying on Telford's plan was asinine.

[Blackhole]

His defensive position is extremely competent, it keeps it simple, it keeps all his personnel out of harm's way and it expends none of his ammo. All of which are important to him. He bottled it, made a mistake, it happens.

Apart from that your second guessing the situation to a ridiculous extent. You've had the luxury of sitting around for a week coming up with ludicrous ways to defend the Destiny, he has limited time, he has a plan. He could have faffed around with oil on the floor or some ******** like that, but he really doesn't have the time. He had a plan he had a defence, he further had his personnel placed around the gateroom for defence in depth.

Young at the crucial moment made a poor decision, or rather hesitated making a decision. One decision can win or lose a battle. Napoleon arguably lost the battle of Waterloo because at a crucial moment he committed his reserve, the Old Guard. One decision and it cost him a battle. The battle of Britain was won by the RAF mainly because at a crucial moment the Luftwaffe make the decision to switch targets from Airfields to cities. During Operation Market Garden,. Allied commander hesitated, unwilling to take the initiative and bypass German defences via alternate routes.

What Young did was stupid, but happily fits in with his character as a man cracking under the strain.

Even if you don't agree that his defences were adequate there are countless examples of officers in senior positions making horrendous choices when it came to defending positions which often cost them the battle.

People have off days, there is the case of Lord Chelmsford, an experienced commander commander of the British Forces during the Zulu wars. At his first action of that war, the battle of Isandalwana, he divided his forces which lead to around half his force being completely wiped out. Following this debacle there was demand for him to be removed from command and a replacement was sent. However due to 19th Century travelling times by the time the replacement had arrived, Chelmsford had got his act together and won the war. General Montgomery, a veritable military genius, failed to succeed in Operation Market Garden. People screw up and make mistakes, even the most competent and experienced military commander.

Very Interesting. Are you a military scholar?

[Blackhole]

Sooo, I'm confused....Why do you watch it? That's like getting a dish at your favorite restaurant and only after you eat the WHOLE entire meal you say, "wow, that was really awful, I'll have to get that one again!"

If you just don't like the show, have nothing good to say about it, then how about not watching it? It makes perfect sense.

He has a right to watch it and express a negative opinion.

[Commander Zelix]

He has a right to watch it and express a negative opinion.

Yeah, who ever said people should make sense in their actions!!!

[LtColCarter]

He has a right to watch it and express a negative opinion.

This is very true

Yeah, who ever said people should make sense in their actions!!!

ROFL...yes...I've stopped trying to figure people out.