'Incursion, Part 2' (120) General Discussion

[Azzers]

*Coughs* Daniel. *Coughs*

Actually, you're proving my point. Moving scene, yes. But it was deliverately open ended. So much so that a massive fan campaign started to get him back on the show. Again, I think you're missing the BIG part of death there, complete loss.

[Wib]

Does anyone else think Varro should actually be the character Ventrell, that Mike Dopud played in the SG-1 episode Bounty, it would have been a nice bit of continuity for those fans who watched SG-1, but wouldn't have any adverse effect on those who've only seen SGU.

[Demerzel]

Actually, you're proving my point. Moving scene, yes. But it was deliverately open ended. So much so that a massive fan campaign started to get him back on the show. Again, I think you're missing the BIG part of death there, complete loss.

Yep. His first death got to me, sure. Back then I wouldn't come online to read about the show or anything, so I had no idea that he would one day come back. But his other deaths, mostly the one at the hands of Replicarter, did nothing for me whatsoever. I knew he'd be back, so it had little impact. I could compare that to Ronon dying in Enemy at the Gates. Had he stayed dead, it would have been an incredible twist since he got killed not by some villain, but by a generic wraith during a fight. But they bring him back right the next scene. Again, no impact at all.

[Demerzel]

Does anyone else think Varro should actually be the character Ventrell, that Mike Dopud played in the SG-1 episode Bounty, it would have been a nice bit of continuity for those fans who watched SG-1, but wouldn't have any adverse effect on those who've only seen SGU.

It would have been nice. But the episode Ventrell was in, was among the worse episodes of SG-1 and I don't think that aside from really big names, that they want to bring any villains from the previous shows into this one. That's why all those LA people are new to us, they don't even wear the uniforms they had in SG-1. I'm guessing that after Netan's death, a lot of things changed in the Alliance.

[kwlafayette]

In general, it continued the disappointment of part 1. Kiva, as predicted, continued her mindlessly violent caricature of the bad buy. For the most part, with the exception of that one guy, it looks like given the choice of dying quietly, or putting up a fight, they all choose to go gentle into that good night.

Destiny just happens to drop out of FTL right next to a dangerous astronomical anomaly, out of all the empty space in the universe. Chloe appears to be dying of a minor flesh wound, while that Varro guy, who apparently had a near fatal would, has made a 100% recovery, and is now strong enough to wrestle guns away from people.

Wray, who is theoretically the stupidest person who could ever exist (past present or future), fails to either get herself shot, or wise up.

At least it ended logically, with Young (who appears to gotten promoted to colonel in exchanging for sexual favors) getting them all killed.

Although, next season, it has to start with Kiva killing more people in cold blood, just to show how so super cereal she is about everything. I expect man bear pig is about to be made into the hero.

[Wib]

It would have been nice. But the episode Ventrell was in, was among the worse episodes of SG-1 and I don't think that aside from really big names, that they want to bring any villains from the previous shows into this one. That's why all those LA people are new to us, they don't even wear the uniforms they had in SG-1. I'm guessing that after Netan's death, a lot of things changed in the Alliance.

You have a point, and as its assumed that Ventrell took control of the Alliance after killing Netan,( as we never actually saw that) it wouldn't make much sense for him to suddenly turn up as Kiva's second in command, unless there was a major reshuffle of the Alliances command structure.

[LtColCarter]

In general, it continued the disappointment of part 1. Kiva, as predicted, continued her mindlessly violent caricature of the bad buy. For the most part, with the exception of that one guy, it looks like given the choice of dying quietly, or putting up a fight, they all choose to go gentle into that good night.

Destiny just happens to drop out of FTL right next to a dangerous astronomical anomaly, out of all the empty space in the universe. Chloe appears to be dying of a minor flesh wound, while that Varro guy, who apparently had a near fatal would, has made a 100% recovery, and is now strong enough to wrestle guns away from people.

Wray, who is theoretically the stupidest person who could ever exist (past present or future), fails to either get herself shot, or wise up.

At least it ended logically, with Young (who appears to gotten promoted to colonel in exchanging for sexual favors) getting them all killed.

Although, next season, it has to start with Kiva killing more people in cold blood, just to show how so super cereal she is about everything. I expect man bear pig is about to be made into the hero.

And I thought I was tough on the show!

[Commander Zelix]

No, I've gotta agree with jelgate on this one, Dead is Dead.

It's true that maybe the first time you kill somene (only to bring them back later) it's effective. But it's all downhill from there.

You don't go through the stages of loss in a show that constantly brings charecter's back because you never get past denial. "Yea they're dead, but they'll probably be back so I don't have to feel bad about it."

Everybody is entitled to his opinion, but as I said the death is already consumed so I don't care if a character comes back years later as a ghost or something. It only had layers the story. A dead and forgotten character worth nothing storywise after the grieving part is done with. Personally I liked the episodes of Weir as a replicators same as Super Ford. In fact, super ford was much better character than Ford.

[Demerzel]

In general, it continued the disappointment of part 1. Kiva, as predicted, continued her mindlessly violent caricature of the bad buy. For the most part, with the exception of that one guy, it looks like given the choice of dying quietly, or putting up a fight, they all choose to go gentle into that good night.

Destiny just happens to drop out of FTL right next to a dangerous astronomical anomaly, out of all the empty space in the universe. Chloe appears to be dying of a minor flesh wound, while that Varro guy, who apparently had a near fatal would, has made a 100% recovery, and is now strong enough to wrestle guns away from people.

Wray, who is theoretically the stupidest person who could ever exist (past present or future), fails to either get herself shot, or wise up.

At least it ended logically, with Young (who appears to gotten promoted to colonel in exchanging for sexual favors) getting them all killed.

Although, next season, it has to start with Kiva killing more people in cold blood, just to show how so super cereal she is about everything. I expect man bear pig is about to be made into the hero.

Not sure why I answer to this entirely negative post, but. You can't compare a silly normal girl getting shot, to a seasoned warrior and very very tough guy getting shot. It doesn't show much on screen, but Mike Dopud is pretty impressive physically. He's tough and it shows. I'm sure his character has been shot before and otherwise wounded before. I'm sure Chloe's body isn't used to being shot.

[Blackhole]

Yup, Young is an idiot. If he had vented when he had the chance, this wouldn't have happened. And he gave in too easily on letting Kiva have the ship. He should have just vented her side and sent Scott and Greer in. Of course, Young and his people have plot armor, so they're gonna live through his dumb decisions; more's the pity. He might actually learn something if he keeps losing people through his idiot plays.

Of course, Kiva is an idiot, too. She's way too quick to wanna kill hostages, even though they are the only thing keeping her alive. She knows she's gonna die and her mission will fail unless she lets two people go fix the shield, and she presses for total control of the ship? She deserved to get shot. I wonder how she managed to climb up in the LA, being this dense. I suppose ruthlessness was all that got her the position.

Chloe calling Eli a friend over and over had to hurt. Poor guy is busting his butt for her, all over the place, and she refuses to see him as a man; someone that will honestly love and take care of her. I think he's proved himself to her a helluva lot more than Scott has. Though, to be honest, I keep wanting Eli *and* Scott to drop her. She's using both of them, and probably doesn't even realize it. Unless she gets a cold shoulder from both to really make her take stock of what she's doing, she won't grow.

Greer is badly in denial; trust Young? The guy who got you into this current mess by not having the balls to do what it took? Who surrendered everyone and now is gonna get you killed?

Here's hoping Season 2 really improves things. Too many people are carrying idiot balls.

We are in agreement. Young has lost it and completely crumbled in this episode. I spent the last few minutes shaking my head and uttering stupid, stupid, and stupid under my breath.

I think Chloe has a right not to be in love with Eli. She has always been upfront with how she feels about him. It is not as if Scott is a bad boy that treats her like dirt. He isn’t. Scott has always been supportive and has treated her well. I think Eli needs to move past his crush on her and open himself up to some of the other women on the ship.

[Blackhole]

Looks like I am going to be in the minority again...

Too many things about this episode keep me from giving it a thumbs up. Yes, parts of it were interesting or even exciting, but so much just seems too contrived. Waaaay too contrived.

For example, that Kiva and Telford would be so perfect of shots that in a surprise pull both could (perhaps) mortally wound the other in a single shot. It's like watching Clint Eastwood vs. The Lone Ranger.

Still, still, there is no good reason explained in the story for why the LA would even have gone to Destiny.

The concept of the cliffhanger at season's end is overdone in modern TV, and in this case SGU really poured it on thick. It would be one thing to be left wondering if all the military were about to be executed, OR, if Telford would live, OR if the preganant Lt. would live (or her child), OR if the two outside the ship would get back in time, OR if Eli could figure out how to get himself and his woman (heh) out in time before the oxygen depletes, OR if the ship manages to survive the next burst of gamma rays, OR if Kiva survives, OR if the civilians are next in line for execution, OR....

The suspense is painted on so thick that "over the top" doesn't adequately describe what happened. It's as if the writers are trying to make this into a James Bond movie.

Here again we get to the problem of the style in which SGU has been produced. The writers have tried to make us concerned about these people as if they were real. Well, good fiction should do that. Yet when the story-line becomes too improbable then I suspend my disbelief and all of a sudden the story looks like a spoof, or mockery, of what was originally intended.

If SGU survives to season two, let us hope that producers can decide which way to go: as a serious drama, or as a super-hero flick.

I felt the same way and may be in the minority as well. I agree with your assessment in this statement: “Yet when the story-line becomes too improbable then I suspend my disbelief and all of a sudden the story looks like a spoof, or mockery, of what was originally intended.”

It really bothered me how Young so completely lost his control once Kiva had taken hostages. Even if everything works out (Which I expect as a TV show it probably mostly will.), how Young completely screwed up is going to bother me forever. I can see him hesitating to delay the air evacuation to try to save his friend Telford but to turn over food and water and then computer control to Kiva was incredibly, incredibly, incredibly, stupid. Once Kiva shot that hostage he should have evacuated the room to near vacuum and then sent in an armed team to dispatch any LA still consciousness; immediately followed by civilians to attempt resuscitation (if possible) of all the hostages. Rush was right, Young needed to act and cut his losses but he didn’t and was completely paralyzed by his fear of hurting anyone. Relying on Telford's plan was asinine.

I realize that they wanted to end the season with a cliffhanger but putting everyone in mortal peril was way over the top and felt very contrived to me as well. I have been trying to give Young the benefit of the doubt but he completely crumbled in this crisis. His outburst in the command center was completely uncalled for. He has evidenced such poor judgment in this episode to make his continued command in my mind at least, completely untenable. And regardless of how it works out, he needs to be replaced; unfortunately I doubt that is going to happen.

I spent the last few minutes shaking my head and uttering stupid, stupid and stupid under my breath. Unless they are planning an extended arc where LA takes over I don’t see how they can miraculously pull all their collective butts out of the fire next episode without it appearing absolutely contrived and unrealistic. We will all have to wait and see what happens.

[Blackhole]

First the whole situation is utmost ridiculous. Young had more than enough opportunity to get rid off this whole damn thing. His first change was the gateroom. Telford is a soldier enough said about this.

Now this ep. No way in hell I would let two of my men go outside. I would demand Kiva to give up one of her own to go help.

Why did he surrender his weapons. Can't figure this out he must have never played poker.
He is so fixated on bringing everyone home alive and look what happened.
The thing is a total mess.

The wont kill the military. It's just a cliffhanger drama. Young is in that room also. Enough said.

The whole Eli/Cloe thing has just been set up to save the 2 others.... hmmm

All this to get new people on board? Sorry but if LA joins the crew this show has lost the little credibility it has left. What is this. Star Trek Voyager 2010 ???

I agree.

[Demerzel]

You have a point, and as its assumed that Ventrell took control of the Alliance after killing Netan,( as we never actually saw that) it wouldn't make much sense for him to suddenly turn up as Kiva's second in command, unless there was a major reshuffle of the Alliances command structure.

I never liked the idea of Ventrell taking control of the Alliance, personally. I doubt all the ruthless lords in the Alliance, like Kefflin, would bow down to a newcomer who only shot their leader. Kefflin was a close friend of Netan's, so we can assume he wasn't very happy. So while Ventrell may have collected a bounty, or even joined the group, it's unlikely he became leader unless like you said, the chain of command and the structure of the Alliance changed a LOT after Netan's death. it was never mentioned or confirmed, so I guess we'll never know.

[SGalisa]

The very last scene at the end, where Young looks up towards the ceiling--

That look on his face made me think he's wondering where he went wrong after telling Rush(?) that he was going to save every single person on the Destiny (his crew), and not one person was going to die. Famous last words ...

I feel badly for Young.

I don't think Young was thinking about his past mistakes at that precise moment.
I think Young was watching the clock and making a very calculated move. The fact that he refused to kneel was brave enough, because I fully expected the LA guy to whack Young's knees at any moment. But Young was also keeping a very close eye on the 46 minute windown time for when the next gamma burst would/might occur. When he looked up and the lights began to flicker, the next move will be a very calculated move -- just as it was when Young was clock-watching over bringing Telford to the brink of death and then doing CPR on him.

Same idea, but different situation.

Kiva completely outclassed Wray. Exchanging the soldier she'd killed was downright nasty! It'll be sad to see her gone as she added a lot to the show.

As for Wray, she reminds me of a typical liberal nice lady who believes too much that in being kind would grant kindness in return. She wasn't prepared for the stark reality of Kiva being so ruthless that Kiva would drop a dead body as the 4th prisoner exchange. Problem is, Wray got exactly what she asked for -- four for four prisoners in exchange. Wray did not specify that the people she asked for should be soldiers or alive, well, and healthy.

Rush was spot on with his assessment of how Kiva operates -- that when Kiva finds someone is of no use to her, she'll dump or kill them.

I doubt if the prisoner exchange incident will change Wray's way of thinking (that some people are just totally evil, and beauty can be *drop-deadening* deceiving), but it certainly opened her eyes a little bit to see how a killer, cold-blooded assassin, or terrorist operates. Kiva would be better off dead, or hauled off by the little blue aliens , or dying by superior (power of) intervention, for Destiny's sake.


And one question that hasn't been answered is, what does Kiva's team or the LA know about the Destiny, that the folks on Destiny don't even know about.
As Rush said earlier "it's a rust-bucket"..
Apart from re-energizing itself with the power of the stars themselves, and whatever the chair is useful for, and the keno drone cameras, what good is it? Seriously -- inquiring minds would like to know.

Scott and Greer: It looks like they're getting gamma'd but you can be sure they either made it inside in time or found some other way to survive.

Maybe they only made it halfway towards the front of the ship, and found refuge in the shuttle (if there is a way in from the outside of the ship)? Doubtful, because of how Eli was meeting them at a cross-road somewhere.

Greer playing pointman, tho -- awesome!
And maybe Greer really does have some medic experience, too. With T.J. down, someone is going to have to do the medic stuff pronto; at least to start with. Mind-transfer stones to earth or not.

One last thing: I really liked the visuals of Destiny bathed in radiation and of Scott and Greer on the side of the ship with the tail far behind them!

Indeed. TPTB should do more interesting view shots like that.

[LtColCarter]

All this to get new people on board? Sorry but if LA joins the crew this show has lost the little credibility it has left. What is this. Star Trek Voyager 2010 ???

I love it!