'Incursion, Part 2' (120) General Discussion

[Aragon101]

Why couldn't he? Do we have to bring up the numerous historical examples of military leaders in senior positions or in charge of elite units who have screwed up immensely?

As for the episode, it was good. Comparing it to the other shows season 1 finales, it was a tad better than SG1's (while that episode was exciting there was no suspense in the cliff hanger, you knew earth wasn't going to get destroyed and with sg1 all in the same room you knew they weren't all going to die) but the Siege still edges over Inursion for me. Nevertheless Incursion as a whole was an exciting and tense ep with a great cliffhanger.

Glad as well that TJ got her abortion. Yes dead babies make me happy. They got lumbered with the storyline but while we can be uncertain about TJ's fate, that baby certainly hasn't survived. Good because it would have been a rehash of the Teyla baby storyline.

Oh and I hope that broken look on Young' face mans he's about to go ax crazy on everyone.

I'd agree with the "leader making a mistake" if it were a simple mistake anyone could make. Like forgetting to lock down the doors because he thought venting the atmosphere would beat them. But this isn't Napoleon at Waterloo making a tactical error, Young had a complete lack of backup plans which i found ridiculous. A layered defense isn't a hard concept.Hell my five year old cousin one ambushed me with a water bucket on top of a door FFS. It could be as simple as coating the floor with grease/oil and the LA suddenly can't maneuver properly so the venting could take effect. They can wash the grease/oil off later, it's not like they're using the gate that very instant.

He's a Full Bird Colonel. If everyday joes see those options and would go for them, how much more would a full bird colonel with combat experience know? How much redundancy does the military do when running an operation?

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

I'd agree with the "leader making a mistake" if it were a simple mistake anyone could make. Like forgetting to lock down the doors because he thought venting the atmosphere would beat them. But this isn't Napoleon at Waterloo making a tactical error, Young had a complete lack of backup plans which i found ridiculous. A layered defense isn't a hard concept.Hell my five year old cousin one ambushed me with a water bucket on top of a door FFS. It could be as simple as coating the floor with grease/oil and the LA suddenly can't maneuver properly so the venting could take effect. They can wash the grease/oil off later, it's not like they're using the gate that very instant.

He's a Full Bird Colonel. If everyday joes see those options and would go for them, how much more would a full bird colonel with combat experience know? How much redundancy does the military do when running an operation?

Err funny you should bring Napoleon up because there was a man who failed spectacularly to have any back up plans at Waterloo, committing his main force to a frontal attack on Wellington and leaving his right flank totally exposed to the Prussians. Or the commanders of Operation Eagle Claw, the failed operation rescue hostages from Iran in the 1980's, who were still arguing over the plan for the operation as it actually started. Or the decision to disband the Iraqi army after the 2003 invasion, in which no plans were made for what to do with the hundreds of thousands of armed young men who had just been released on to the streets of Iraq. So yes screwing up terribly and having no plans happens all the time.

[MattSilver 3k]

I think a certain degree of predictability is expected considering we've been getting casting calls for season 2, we know everybody's filming for season 2, and oh - THE EPISODE HAS BEEN OUT FOR WEEKS.

Jeez. Even with all the spoilers I still didn't predict the Kiva-Telford shootout, the Chloe/Eli scenes, one guy and one misfired weapon killing a few folks and TJ's baby at once... It was fun.

[Aragon101]

Err funny you should bring Napoleon up because there was a man who failed spectacularly to have any back up plans at Waterloo, committing his main force to a frontal attack on Wellington and leaving his right flank totally exposed to the Prussians. Or the commanders of Operation Eagle Claw, the failed operation rescue hostages from Iran in the 1980's, who were still arguing over the plan for the operation as it actually started. Or the decision to disband the Iraqi army after the 2003 invasion, in which no plans were made for what to do with the hundreds of thousands of armed young men who had just been released on to the streets of Iraq. So yes screwing up terribly and having no plans happens all the time.

Eagle Claw was rife with political tension and indecision on a scale above the actual operators on the mission itself.

Napoleon's mistakes were alot more than just leaving his right flank exposed (Invading Russia in winter?), but he didn't forget the Prussians, he tried to make peace with them but by then it was too late.

Disbanding the Iraqi army is a political decision, not a military decision made in combat.

Young had a single choice to make, it wasn't a series of choices which left him in a vulnerable position as the above three are.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Eagle Claw was rife with political tension and indecision on a scale above the actual operators on the mission itself.

Napoleon's mistakes were alot more than just leaving his right flank exposed (Invading Russia in winter?), but he didn't forget the Prussians, he tried to make peace with them but by then it was too late.

Disbanding the Iraqi army is a political decision, not a military decision made in combat.

Young had a single choice to make, it wasn't a series of choices which left him in a vulnerable position as the above three are.

The actual operators couldn't decide on a curse of action themselves during eagle claw. The entire failure of the operation lead to the formation of USSOCOM, because of the failure of the various forces to work together in a meaningful way.

At Waterloo Napoleon committed his entire force to Wellington, leaving no reserve for the Prussians. Further he had no contingency plans should the campaign go bad, no reserves, once defeated at Waterloo, he was quickly capitulated.

Finally the decision to disband the Iraqi army was a decision that effected the military that was made with the help of the military commanders in Iraq, it meant that there was a shortage in man power to provide security, a new army had to be trained and equipped and it lead to a direct increase in insurgents.

Young bottled it, the entire situation can be laid at his feet because he did not act quickly enough in venting the atmosphere of the Gateroom. He had a failure in judgement, it happens. That's why he went to command a back water base rather than a frontline team, because he didn't have it in him.

You ask previously how did Young become a Colonel? Because at one point he could make those hard choices, but people change, and not everyone can stomach making those hard choices each day. Young is more than likely a PTSD suffererer, he has vivid memories of traumatic events, such as the attack on base by the LA as mentioned in Subversion, he has persistent avoidance to the idea that he will lose any more people, it his berserk button, he can't face it. On top of this he has significant problems with anger. Combat often changes in people and it has not left Young in a good mental state.

Further PTSD is often difficult to diagnose, people in the military are often unwilling to admit they have a problem, for fear of appearing weak or losing their position. Young's been affected further by having been thrust into a situation where he was unprepared and has had several months of intense pressure. People crack under that kind of strain.

[garhkal]

WEll, we know Telford is dead, as that LA guy felt his neck and left him there..

[Aragon101]

The actual operators couldn't decide on a curse of action themselves during eagle claw. The entire failure of the operation lead to the formation of USSOCOM, because of the failure of the various forces to work together in a meaningful way.

At Waterloo Napoleon committed his entire force to Wellington, leaving no reserve for the Prussians. Further he had no contingency plans should the campaign go bad, no reserves, once defeated at Waterloo, he was quickly capitulated.

Finally the decision to disband the Iraqi army was a decision that effected the military that was made with the help of the military commanders in Iraq, it meant that there was a shortage in man power to provide security, a new army had to be trained and equipped and it lead to a direct increase in insurgents.

Young bottled it, the entire situation can be laid at his feet because he did not act quickly enough in venting the atmosphere of the Gateroom. He had a failure in judgement, it happens. That's why he went to command a back water base rather than a frontline team, because he didn't have it in him.

You ask previously how did Young become a Colonel? Because at one point he could make those hard choices, but people change, and not everyone can stomach making those hard choices each day. Young is more than likely a PTSD suffererer, he has vivid memories of traumatic events, such as the attack on base by the LA as mentioned in Subversion, he has persistent avoidance to the idea that he will lose any more people, it his berserk button, he can't face it. On top of this he has significant problems with anger. Combat often changes in people and it has not left Young in a good mental state.

Further PTSD is often difficult to diagnose, people in the military are often unwilling to admit they have a problem, for fear of appearing weak or losing their position. Young's been affected further by having been thrust into a situation where he was unprepared and has had several months of intense pressure. People crack under that kind of strain.

So in your opinion, Young shouldn't be in charge. That's what i get from that, that he's incompetent because the stress has made him crack. If so, then i hope he loses command in Season 2.

Sorry, i don't see it. Young was smart enough to know about venting the atmosphere which is a more technical type of trap. I can't see how he wouldn't think "Hmm.. maybe we could set some other less complicated traps just in case, maybe actually venting it to start with or maybe covering the gate room floor with fuel from Greer's flamethrower. Yeah that'd be a great trap that can't really fail."

Given how much people have talked about this particular plot point, it wasn't sold well enough for me to believe that Young is so mentally gone that he was capable of such ineffectual defending.

[bobsuncorp]

I was hoping for closure on at least one of our plotlines, but no!

Eli didn't get to the airlock before the end.

Scott and Grier didn't get to the airlock before the end.

Chloe didn't get rescued or show signs of recovery BTE.

The hostages didn't get rescued BTE.

TJ didn't get rescued BTE.

We did find out what the flickering lights and melty death was all about, but that's it.


And now we have to wait until October?!


AAARRGH!

If I wasn't so hopelessly addicted I would stop watching in protest. Who agrees with me?

[thekillman]

i predicted Telford would shoot and i predicted some sort of radiation burst event. gamma ray burst to be precise, as said in the eppy.


some things are just predictable, others are not. remember that most guys on here have already seem quite a lot of Sci fi and yes, eventually things do become predictable. although thumbs up for SGU since it allows me NOT to predict things. i just watch. i

[Coronach]

What isn't "predictable" these days? Hell, if it's not predictable then we have to deal with complaints of how it's "so different" and "not Stargate".

Meh.

[thekillman]

i like the idea that not everything is just solved like that.

wait... october? SERIOUSLY?

[Coronach]

I don't, because cliffhangers are ever-present in most TV shows and are obviously very effective. It sucks for us, but it's more than understandable.

[J-Whitt Remastered]

What isn't "predictable" these days? Hell, if it's not predictable then we have to deal with complaints of how it's "so different" and "not Stargate".

Meh.

Agreed.Some people will never be satisfied.

[MattSilver 3k]

Well I think since everybody will be mostly fine by the end of all this (Excluding some gunshot wounds and TJ's kid), a big cliffhanger for the hell of it isn't surprising. If someone was actually going to die horribly, I bet they would've actually done it in the episode.

[Briangate78]

I have to agree with the original poster. I had an idea what was going to happen before it did. I also think too many people got wounded and shot, and it basically lost it's drama effect. Kiva shooting TJ in cold blood would of been really powerful.