When torture is right

[BadOnion]

It broke the brainwashing, which was all he was trying to do. Young was never hoping that the "torture" would make him talk, he just wanted to undo the mind-tampering so they'd have Telford back. Weren't you listening later on when Young explained this to Scott?

So you just pretty much broke the premise of this entire topic.

[smart]

Yes, I agree that torture was appropriate. Although Telford was harmed, Young obtained the neccesaary info to prepare for the Lucian Alliance and a devise a defensive plan. Essentially torture can be right in some cases, where the harm of one being can save the lives of many others.Also, his actions were beneficial since by killing and then reviving him , Young was able to get Telford back as himself
and Telford was therefore able to be helpful in a few ways [ i.e making his move, convincing the Lucian Alliance

of TJ'S usefulness].

[IMForeman]

What Young was doing was not torture. He was performing a version of the Jaffa's Rite of Malshuraan. It was done to Teal'c with success in Threshold, we shall see if it was successful here, or if Telford is shammin'.

[PG15]

As far as I'm concerned, with the revelation that Young did what he did because he specifically wanted Telford to die a little bit to break the brainwashing, it can no longer be called torture. It's more like..."treatment" for Telford's condition (of being brainwashed). This in turn renders all of this, and by extention the 30+ pages of debate in that other thread, moot.

[s09119]

As far as I'm concerned, with the revelation that Young did what he did because he specifically wanted Telford to die a little bit to break the brainwashing, it can no longer be called torture. It's more like..."treatment" for Telford's condition (of being brainwashed). This in turn renders all of this, and by extention the 30+ pages of debate in that other thread, moot.

More or less. What he did may be classified as a form of torture, given the method, but it was the only remedy he had on hand.

[Kaiphantom]

I'm going to Godwin this thread, but it needs to be said.

The Nuremburg trials showed that "just following orders" is no excuse. Millions of people were tortured, and the soliders under the command of the big shots who gave those orders, were just as culpable as the commanders.

Torture. Is. Wrong.

And if you carry out an order to torture someone, you are just as guilty.

As PG15 said, what Young did was more like a treatment, but he should have explained that to the people under his command. True, technically Scott should have... but as Sheppard told a different Col Everett in SGA, if he didn't include Weir in things, he'd lose the respect of everyone. There is more to leading then simply barking out orders.

[PG15]

More or less. What he did may be classified as a form of torture, given the method, but it was the only remedy he had on hand.

But that's just it - it's a remedy, not torture. You can't say "torture worked" because it completely skirts the issue (in a rather brilliant way, IMHO - I totally did not see the Rite of Mal'Sharan happening). There was no torture here, not "officially".

I'm not an expert on torture, but as far as I know, torture is basically giving someone physical/mental/emotional trauma until they crack under the pressure and do what you want them to do, in theory. What Young did had nothing to do with that - there was no "cracking under the pressure". It was more like getting a shot for a vaccine or various other painful medical treatments - yeah, it feels pretty uncomfortable, but that's just an unfortunate side effect of the procedure, not its intended effect.

[Paladine]

For all the people who complained that under no circumstances is torturing a prisoner acceptable... I hope "Incursion, Part 1" proved that you were mistaken. Had they not tortured Telford, everyone on that ship would most-likely be dead or suffering even further losses. Young knew what he had to do and he did it, and he no doubt saved many innocent lives in doing so.

Let me guess... You support that torture that our government has been doing down in Guantanamo Bay? Lets turn the tables around and pretend you were captured. Would you then still believe torture is acceptable? If so, you got some major issues brother =)

[PG15]

So not only did Young commit a monstrous crime, it also produced no tangible results.

So then the same can be said of Bra'tac, yes?

It was a very quick Rite of Malsharan, and that's what Young intended. The tangible result is that Telford is back to normal (or so we think, anyway). Young committed no crime, though some can argue (and some already have argued) that he made a mistake in not telling other people about it.

Though, like I said earlier, the first few minutes of this episode rendered most of last week's torture discussions completely pointless, and that's freaking hilarious to me.

[Doorlocks]

For all the people who complained that under no circumstances is torturing a prisoner acceptable... I hope "Incursion, Part 1" proved that you were mistaken. Had they not tortured Telford, everyone on that ship would most-likely be dead or suffering even further losses. Young knew what he had to do and he did it, and he no doubt saved many innocent lives in doing so.

Lol, wut? Yeah, I forgot the classic, "Breaking Alien Brainwashing" argument that pro-torture advocates are always invoking at the last minute to win arguments. It's obviously such an ironclad, unassailable scenario that poor anti-torture people like me must repress it so that we can go on in our mistaken, futile ways.

[Kastro187420]

It was a very quick Rite of Malsharan, and that's what Young intended. The tangible result is that Telford is back to normal (or so we think, anyway). Young committed no crime, though some can argue (and some already have argued) that he made a mistake in not telling other people about it.

The difference between what Bra'tac did, and Young did, lies in the information available. Bra'tac KNEW teal'c was brainwashed, and knew it was the only way to bring him back to normal. With Young, he didn't conclusively know that Telford was brainwashed. It was possible, but it wasn't a guarantee.

For all young knew, he could've killed telford, brought him back, and achieved nothing. It was a gamble. He just got lucky was all.

As far as "When is torture right?", I'd say only when you know the person is in possession of the information you're looking for, and only depending on what said information is that you're looking for.

[garhkal]

For all the people who complained that under no circumstances is torturing a prisoner acceptable... I hope "Incursion, Part 1" proved that you were mistaken. Had they not tortured Telford, everyone on that ship would most-likely be dead or suffering even further losses. Young knew what he had to do and he did it, and he no doubt saved many innocent lives in doing so.

Just cause it worked out that he was right in that Telford was brainwashed, and therefore bringing him to the brink was the way out, still does not make what he did right in the sense of right and wrong. IF i do evil to combat other evil, i have still done evil..

BUT I WILL NOW make an apology to all those i slammed that he could not know of the right of Mal'sha-ron (or however it is spelled) as both he and Telford seemed to know of it.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

For all the people who complained that under no circumstances is torturing a prisoner acceptable... I hope "Incursion, Part 1" proved that you were mistaken. Had they not tortured Telford, everyone on that ship would most-likely be dead or suffering even further losses. Young knew what he had to do and he did it, and he no doubt saved many innocent lives in doing so.

I agree, Young knew what needed to be done and did it, saving not only the lives of people on Destiny but Telford's life as well (and now that Rush is back in his body, he;s saved Rush too). I expect that this isn't going to matter much, as the problem seemed to be more about Young himself than anything else.

[thekillman]

Young did it for two things:

1: to break the brainwashing, similar to what happened to Teal'c
2: to test his fellow people. including Scott. who clearly didn't trust Young enough.

also telford revealed that he had read about the technique and that it had been applied a few times but he hadn't thought about it.


as to the predictability: predictable for longtime fans, not so for new fans

[Major_Griff]

I was vehemently against the torture in Subversion, but now knowing that Young still thought Telford was under the influence of brainwashing and was trying to Mal'Sharaan him, I think what he did was right. It has nothing to do with the fact that they were able to prepare for the attack. I'm only okay with just because it wasn't torture. He wasn't trying to break him to get information, he was trying to un wash his brain like they did to Teal'c in 'Threshold'.