'Incursion, Part 1' (119) General Discussion

[Blackhole]

The following is taken from JM's blog:

Yes, he could have vented the atmosphere immediately and killed them as per his initial plan, but when he saw Telford come through the gate, he elected to offer the Lucian Alliance the opportunity to surrender. It wouldn’t have cost him anything but time and could well have saved Telford’s life. If they’d refused, he would simply go back to Plan A and vent the atmosphere – which he does, but too late because the attackers have technology he wasn’t expecting them to have.

With all due respect to JM... are you telling us Young wouldn't have believed that the LA would come with explosives? Like grenades or bombs? Because he should have at least assumed they could blow the doors; after all, that's what he would do. In that light, the "keys" are irrelevant. Waiting is a bad thing, because it gives the LA time to blow the doors, something they'd do immediately upon learning that Young could vent the atmosphere. He gave away valuable intel by communicating, and that's something you just don't do.

JM is a good writer, and odds are he ran this script past others; it's just hard to believe that none of them thought the LA would have explosives. They might have thought of it, but perhaps they were in a bind because they realized that Young *could* counter anything the LA could do by venting atmosphere, and tried really hard to give some lame reason why he wouldn't, so the LA could get onto the ship. Giving the LA some other technical gadgets to counter it would have been a *less* lame reason. As a writer myself, I know relying on them is kinda bad, but I don't see any other alternative for getting the LA onto the ship and surviving.

Thing is, 20/20 hindsight doesn't quite work here because we're working off what would be known or assumed at the time; as a military commander, it is Young's duty to guess the enemy's strategy and employ one that counters it. Before they arrived, he should assume they would be coming with weapons, and he should know the types of weapons the LA generally use, which would include explosives. Venting the atmosphere is good, but any military commander knows that the more time you give your enemy, the better the chance that they can come up with some way to counter it. Waiting *would* cost Young, and he should realize that; overestimating your enemy is arrogance, and is what the Goa'uld suffered from.

Let's play that: If he had vented the atmosphere, and let's say killed the LA and Telford (Rush would have been safe, due to stone disconnection), it would have been an excellent moment. Young just single-handily saved the people on the ship. War isn't pretty, and sometimes you have to do stuff that's not pretty. I would *not* have condemned him as heartless, because he did what he had to do. However, then we wouldn't have the LA on the ship, and the plot calls for them to be there. I am more in favor of a better way which more logically allows the LA to be on the ship, while having Young not look incompetent.

TJ isn't. It's solely on Young to order someone to disconnect the stones.

The problem is, they made Young look *too* incompetent. There were other ways of going about it, which would have got the LA on the ship and made Young's actions more grey at the very least. He still could be left second-guessing himself afterwards, when the LA do take over the ship.

Stargate is a fictional world where in SG-1 and Atlantis especially, it usually works out well in the end. I would agree that immediately evacuating the room would have been the best tactical move but it would have killed Telford and Rush as far as Young was aware. Your point that Young could have ordered their stones disconnected is valid but in the context of the episode none of them realized it. At the time everyone believed evacuating the gate room would have killed both of them.

Being a writer yourself you must realize that scrutinizing any fictional account too closely is going to uncover flaws and ruin the story; this episode is no different. Whether the LA had explosives or door openers or not; Young delayed to try to save both their lives. Unfortunately the delay gave LA the time they needed to get past the doors. I don’t agree that his decision makes him incompetent. With two lives in the balance Young gambled; sometimes the gamble doesn’t pay off but it doesn’t necessarily mean that he was wrong to try. In Stargate’s fictional world imo, I would rather see a commander who is reluctant to sacrifice some of his own than one who would do so readily.

[Blackhole]

Exactly! As far as TJ was concerned, Young was venting the room. She even said as much when she said that it would be all over in a minute or so. She couldn't have known from the safety of the infirmary that Young had changed his mind on his plan. And that everything had gone wrong. So in her mind she had absolutely no reason to that she had to tell Young about the switch back that had occured.

I disagree. Telling Young that there are no longer two lives in the balance rather than one is crucial information and should have been immediately relayed.

[zintradi]

Well, I'll give the captain obvious/obnoxious reply.
if he had done that then this would have been a half hour long episode rather than a 3 parter.
similar to the question of when frodo and gandalf decided to take the ring to mt doom, why didn't gandalf just summon his giant eagle friends and fly the ring into the mountain? the lord of the rings would have been a pamphlet rather than 3 books

I like how Young just lost the most easily defend-able position in the history of warfare. There are very very few things that would've made that room easier to defend.

I don't get why he didn't press the button, let them all fall unconscious, open the doors, toss some flashbangs in or something and then arrest all of them. It was a good episode though I just wish they would've defended it properly and then lost control due to some unforeseen circumstance.

[Blackhole]

Well, I'll give the captain obvious/obnoxious reply.
if he had done that then this would have been a half hour long episode rather than a 3 parter.
similar to the question of when frodo and gandalf decided to take the ring to mt doom, why didn't gandalf just summon his giant eagle friends and fly the ring into the mountain? the lord of the rings would have been a pamphlet rather than 3 books

Very good point.

[Blackhole]

There is a strategy that Young could have employed that would have countered any explosives or door opening technology that LA tried. All Young had to do was immediately retreat with his men past an airtight door close it and proceed with the evacuation. If it takes less than a minute to go to vacuum then LA would never have gotten through both the first and second set of doors before passing out.

But again, over scrutinizing the story is pointless; the writers wanted LA to gain a foothold on the ship.

[Kaiphantom]

Stargate is a fictional world where in SG-1 and Atlantis especially, it usually works out well in the end. I would agree that immediately evacuating the room would have been the best tactical move but it would have killed Telford and Rush as far as Young was aware. Your point that Young could have ordered their stones disconnected is valid but in the context of the episode none of them realized it. At the time everyone believed evacuating the gate room would have killed both of them.

Being a writer yourself you must realize that scrutinizing any fictional account too closely is going to uncover flaws and ruin the story; this episode is no different. Whether the LA had explosives or door openers or not; Young delayed to try to save both their lives. Unfortunately the delay gave LA the time they needed to get past the doors. I don’t agree that his decision makes him incompetent. With two lives in the balance Young gambled; sometimes the gamble doesn’t pay off but it doesn’t necessarily mean that he was wrong to try. In Stargate’s fictional world imo, I would rather see a commander who is reluctant to sacrifice some of his own than one who would do so readily.

The only real conflict I see in this, is that they are trying to push SGU as something different; "Darker and edgier." If they were really planning on that, then Young should have vented the room immediately; that would have been the darker and edgier twist. He had just risked Telford's life once, so we know he could do it again.

And yes, the plot demands the LA be on the ship, so the main criticism comes down to: "Let's write in such a way that doesn't make people look like idiots." It's about willing suspension of disbelief. In this case, I have a hard time swallowing Young being a colonel at all, because a colonel is supposed to risk the lives of his men in smart ways. Venting risks 1 man, while not venting risks everyone. Note, that's not death, just risk. The choice should have been obvious.

And yeah, as a writer I have to be very careful when creating a story. I have to have the characters act believably as I construct the plot. Plenty of times I've had beta readers go "this is a bit of a stretch; consider changing it to make it more believable?" And sometimes it's difficult when I realize what the plot requires, and it's hard to make a correction that would make it fit. But I still give it thought and there is usually always a way to rewrite things so they make more sense.

In a more recent fic, I had a guy show up near the end, and claim to have orchestrated everything the two heroines went through (he said it to someone else, not them). One of my pre-readers went, "Everything you had the two go through? That's highly implausible that he could have got them in the right position to notice the kidnapping, and keep them on the trail with everything they went through." I initially disagreed, but after a lot of thought, I removed that bit. You can only ask for so much suspension of belief from your audience.

[Blackhole]

The only real conflict I see in this, is that they are trying to push SGU as something different; "Darker and edgier." If they were really planning on that, then Young should have vented the room immediately; that would have been the darker and edgier twist. He had just risked Telford's life once, so we know he could do it again.

And yes, the plot demands the LA be on the ship, so the main criticism comes down to: "Let's write in such a way that doesn't make people look like idiots." It's about willing suspension of disbelief. In this case, I have a hard time swallowing Young being a colonel at all, because a colonel is supposed to risk the lives of his men in smart ways. Venting risks 1 man, while not venting risks everyone. Note, that's not death, just risk. The choice should have been obvious.

And yeah, as a writer I have to be very careful when creating a story. I have to have the characters act believably as I construct the plot. Plenty of times I've had beta readers go "this is a bit of a stretch; consider changing it to make it more believable?" And sometimes it's difficult when I realize what the plot requires, and it's hard to make a correction that would make it fit. But I still give it thought and there is usually always a way to rewrite things so they make more sense.

In a more recent fic, I had a guy show up near the end, and claim to have orchestrated everything the two heroines went through (he said it to someone else, not them). One of my pre-readers went, "Everything you had the two go through? That's highly implausible that he could have got them in the right position to notice the kidnapping, and keep them on the trail with everything they went through." I initially disagreed, but after a lot of thought, I removed that bit. You can only ask for so much suspension of belief from your audience.

Maybe the writers weren’t being as logical as you have just been? We don’t know if they are deliberately trying to portray Young as using poor judgment and making a mistake or if they didn’t think there would be some who would conclude that he had. From JM blog you quoted it seems he didn’t think Young came across as demonstrating poor judgment but then why did they have O’Neil telling him he should have sacrificed both of them and why did he not break their stone connection sooner? We will have to see in later episodes how this plays out. Will Young be haunted by his decision or will it all work out in the end so no harm no foul? SGU delights in presenting flawed characters in ambiguous situations and that may be what they are doing now. I look forward to finding out.

[ArchaeoNerd]

Another fantastic episode!!!

I don't know if someone else has already brought this up, but it seems to me that evacuating the air from the gate room is kind of a slow way to deal with an enemy attack. Look how long it took Telford/Rush to asphyxiate after Young evacuated the air from his quarters, and that was a much smaller space. I think that even if Young did start evacuating the gate room immediately, they would still have had time to run to the doors and open them.

Also, I thought I saw one guy with some kind of gas mask or breathing apparatus. Maybe the LA made sure that at least one of their people would able to deal with poisoned air (or no air).

However, I'm not complaining. As others have said, our guys were not supposed to succeed!

As for the Soldier Flambe, I think the ship did it. I can't wait to find out!

ArchaeoNerd

[SG7]

I disagree. Telling Young that there are no longer two lives in the balance rather than one is crucial information and should have been immediately relayed.

Since she saw Rush appear, she may have assumed that Young saw Telford appear. And since he was venting out the room as far as she knew, she probably didn't realize that it would have been important to radio to Young. Reality is, we don't always think to do the right thing when we are in a panic or crunch situation. Or even in tense situations.

When I am planning to go to a convention, I often play the senarios in my head of what I am going to do or say when I meet an actor, and when I do, it always turns out completely different. It is much the same here. We have hindsight to tell us what they should have done. They had next to no information other than that they were about to be attacked. No knowledge of what kinds of weapons they would be bringing, if they would be throwing bombs through the gate first etc.

[Petra]

I do not like the way they represented Carter. Carter would have known to beam out the F302 pilots, just like in SGA's season 2 episode 2 The Intruder (Wraith AI episode) they beamed Sheppard onto the bridge.

Sure, they had to in order to make the 'right call' comment, but.. it's Carter. She wouldn't make that mistake.

Yeah, because Carter has never made any mistakes...

From a tactical point of view I agree with you that venting the room would have been a better strategy. I just don't think it was written that way to portray Young as less competent but as a plot device to get LA on the ship for a longer invasion story and to show that Young is not willing to sacrifice lives even when other commanders may have done so in the same situation.

And in all fairness O’Neil is a hypocrite; when the Replicators still had Sam he could have stopped them if he had used his disruptor weapon on their ship before it lifted off; he was unwilling to fire because it would have meant sacrificing her life to do so.

And in all fairness I will say again O’Neill’s assessment is hypocritical; when the Replicators still had Sam he could have stopped them if he had used his disruptor weapon on their ship before it lifted off; he was unwilling to fire because it would have meant sacrificing her life to do so. In that instance the stakes were far higher than just the take over of a space ship; our entire galaxy was at risk from a Replicator invasion.

Except it isn't To prove your theory you mentioned (twice) events form New Order; I'll go even further and remind you that in Endgame he let The Trust get away with the Tok'ra poison because stopping them would mean killing SG-1. However, please note that both of these examples are from season 8 - season which was, despite all my love for it, notorious for making all main characters act distinctly OOC to service the plot (to mention just Sam & Teal'c in Gemini, Daniel in Affinity or Hammond and Reynolds in PU). Had Jack fired upon the Replicators' ship there would have been no Replicators' storyline in season 8 and ultimately no "Reckoning"; had he fired upon The Trust "Full Alert" wouldn't have happened. It's also worth noting that both these decisions were harshly criticised in the fandom because everybody knew it was way OOC.

Prior to season 8 however Jack was known to make harsh decisions; he left Daniel behind in The Serpent's Lair, he did kill Sam in Entity when she became a threat to the base, he shot Teal'c in Enemies and Daniel in Lockdown and Reece in Menace, he was prepared to leave Cassie to die in Singularity and blow Daniel up in Scorched Earth and so on. The bottom line is, I didn't take his words as hypocritical but rather as writers writing him like they used to, as a tough, experienced military commander. And kudos to them for that.

Now, more on topic: Incursion part 1.

I liked it. After such awesome set-up as Subversion I expected to love it, and while it failed in this regard there was enough of great scenes and touches to keep me happy.

Jack's part, as I mentioned, was great. That's the Jack I know and love and want to keep watching. Ditto on Sam. And I love how they compliment the show without taking over and stealing the spotlight from the regulars.

Speaking of regulars, Young continues to be an awesome, unpredictable character, difficult to classify or even understand. Yes, he made mistakes trying to defend the ship and his going back to Earth to essentialy show his boss that he feels sorry for himself was totally unexpected and...I loved it. I don't care what he should have done; the point is, he didn't and thus provided me with great entertainment

Rush was a bit meh, but I'm thinking despite all this talk about how he understood danger and mess he was getting himself into in Subversion he's now mighty pissed at Young for allowing him to go along with it and not bringing him back sooner. I wonder what he'll do now..

Camille was actually useful and reasonable, so good job. Loved TJ, although I want to see more of her. Much more.

Eli and Chloe's scenes were ok, I suppose, and I do hope that their unplanned exploration of the ship will turn out to be very important, but ultimately their scenes were slowing down the episode and I could have done without them.

I'm not sure what I think of Scott. On one hand I like that he thinks independently, on the other I really, really don't like his attitude of following orders only if he agrees with them. And I can't help thinking that not telling him about the reasons to vent the atmosphere was a test, and he failed spectacularly.

Telford is turning out to be quite likeable and Brody's much more interesting and nuanced that I expected him to be. Who knew? And I was very happy to see James and Riley, but again, I want to see even more of them!

Finally, where's Greer? He's regular, isn't he? You wouldn't have thought so from the last 2 eps. I demand more screentime for Greer!

All in all, enjoyable episode that left me all impatient to see the finale.

[Redhooks]

I would have liked this episode better if Mallozzi had written Young as not so indecisive about venting the air from the Gate Room. Like I stated earlier in this thread, he could have vented the air from the room when the LA people and Rush/Telford showed up as soon as he ordered someone to disconnect the stones' connection between him. That slight hesitation would have given one or two of the LA people time to get out their lock picks and open one or two doors, thus negating the venting of the room. The rest of the episode could have then continued as was shown.

Some people would still complain that Young didn't order the venting of the air fast enough, but in my view, you don't damage the Young character as much and yet still get the LA people on board relatively safe. I would have loved to be a fly on the wall when this episode was being conceived/broken by the writers. I wonder how much of the views/complaints being put forth by the viewers were also brought up during the construction stage of the episode?

[kwlafayette]

That might have been a bit better, but the most logical thing is, it is already vacuum even before they start dialing from Icarus II. If someone really had their wits about them, that would give that one person about 15 seconds to use the magic lock pick.

In my opinion, unless they came through the gate with the lock pick in hand, and without a hint of panic or surprise located the closest door and used the device immediately, it would have been impossible for any of them to escape the room. Room kept at vacuum means minimum risk for Destiny crew. Any other course of action raises level of risk.

[ONeill4tW]

Yeah that is true if the person is suffering from cardiac arrest which Telford was not he was suffocating. And rescue breathing is still recommended is suffocation situations.

Actually it can be done without the rescue breaths but the chances of succeeding will be slimmer without them.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

I would have liked this episode better if Mallozzi had written Young as not so indecisive about venting the air from the Gate Room. Like I stated earlier in this thread, he could have vented the air from the room when the LA people and Rush/Telford showed up as soon as he ordered someone to disconnect the stones' connection between him. That slight hesitation would have given one or two of the LA people time to get out their lock picks and open one or two doors, thus negating the venting of the room. The rest of the episode could have then continued as was shown.

Some people would still complain that Young didn't order the venting of the air fast enough, but in my view, you don't damage the Young character as much and yet still get the LA people on board relatively safe. I would have loved to be a fly on the wall when this episode was being conceived/broken by the writers. I wonder how much of the views/complaints being put forth by the viewers were also brought up during the construction stage of the episode?

Why? It's completely in character for Young. He gave up commanding an SG team because he couldn't make the hard decisions, now he's faced with a difficult decision here and he hesitates.

[jelgate]

Why? It's completely in character for Young. He gave up commanding an SG team because he couldn't make the hard decisions, now he's faced with a difficult decision here and he hesitates.

I thought he passed on it to be with Emily