'Incursion, Part 1' (119) General Discussion

[SG7]

Just watched the episode this afternoon on Space's website as I don't have cable. So alot of pages to catch up on. And boy what an awesome episode. Lots of intense moments.

Well I just gotta say this was a damn good episode.

Ditto!

Franklin/destiny fried that guy

Indeed! At least that was my thought when it happened.

I thought about it and you're right. It was actually fairly easy to win... position all the soldiers in the gate room, let them fly through, and shoot them as they land. That or disarm them as they do if you want to stay civil about this.

That said, they had no idea what was coming their way, so from Young's perspective, this may have been the wiser option.

I doubt that Young could have known what would have happened when they came through the gate. For all he knew, they could have thrown some sort of gernade through the gate to deal with anything on the otherside of the gate. Young wouldn't have known that they would come flying through the gate like they did.

And his orignal plan was to vent the room. That was I think untill two things happened. TJ's thoughts when he told her that he would be venting the room. And also seeing Rush come flying through the gate. Then suddenly things in his mind probably changed the situation

10/10 episode Really interested in how much more the alliance knows about ship

I was wondering that too. As the LA indicated that the Destiny was of great importance (very loosly quoting as I can't remember the exact words)

[SG7]

People keep saying that they should have vented the atmosphere - but, honestly, the only way that could have worked was if they had done so prior to the Lucian Alliance even arriving. They would have likely been able to open the doors before it really had any effect on them.

Young also didn't know if they would be throwing in any explosives. Leaving people in the gateroom would've been a disaster.

That was exactly what I was thinking. Unless one can vent the air at different rates of speed that we have not been made aware of yet. Otherwise they would have had ample time to get through the gateroom door.

and this ep proved eli hasn't lost much weight. and that "you are here" t-shirt has to go.

Yeh, a detail that they have an issue with. Everyone on board not getting much nutrition. TJ herself said at one point that she being pregnant, was becoming anemic because of the lack of good nutrition.

Though it is a detail that TPTB may have an issue with as I doubt that they can really expect David Blue or any of the others to go on special diets to loose the weight. Usually an actor will make that decision themselves for the character.

i have decided that kiva is a be-atch. she was willing to kill TJ -The only medic on the ship. not to mention she was pregnant with a life. doesn't kiva have any morals?

Apparently not. Looks as though she has lowered her standards to a point that probably even most "bad guy" scum wouldn't eve go.

[Blackhole]

Remember, to TJ's thinking, Young has the plan to vent the atmosphere and she has no idea what's going on out there because she's "safe" in the infirmary. I still think far too many posters are assuming that because they've seen everything that's going on, that the characters have that same information. TJ likely believes it'll all be over in a minute and so doesn't know that it's importantr that it's Rush. Young still thinks it's Rush in the gateroom. This is the informatiuon they have to work with.

You are right that the characters have limited information that is why it was crucial that she should have immediately radioed Young that Rush and Telford were back in their own bodies. Young should have terminated their connection earlier anyway. Rush would have likely have been able to offer valuable intell on their attack, i.e., when and what equipment they may bring. There was no reason to maintain the connection except to possibly protect Telford at Rush's expense. And once he saw Telford in the gate room why did he wait? Kaiphantom was right the only real chance Young had to stop LA was if he had immediately evacuated the gate room. I realize that the writers wanted the invasion to last 2-3 episodes so that is why everything went down the way it did. I wonder if that was the only reason for Young's decision or did they intend to portray him as incompetent and showing favoritism to Telford as Kaiphantom has suggested?

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

You are right that the characters have limited information that is why it was crucial that she should have immediately radioed Young that Rush and Telford were back in their own bodies. Young should have terminated their connection earlier anyway. Rush would have likely have been able to offer valuable intell on their attack, i.e., when and what equipment they may bring. There was no reason to maintain the connection. And once he saw Telford in the gate room why did he wait? Kaiphantom was right the only real chance Young had to stop LA was if he had immediately evacuated the gate room. I realize that the writers wanted the invasion to last 2-3 episodes so that is why everything went down the way it did. I wonder if that was the reason for Young's decision or did they intend to portray him as incompetent as Kaiphantom has suggested?

I have a real problem with the word incompetent here.

I think that there is a lot of 20/20 hindsight and people assuming that people knew what they knew in time to do anything. If I was in Young's position, would I have vented the air in that room? Yeah, I would. But that's the thing, *I* would. If you're a guy on the floor of that gateroom and want to come out of it alive, *I* might not be the one you'd want with life or death control over your life because I would kill. Can I stress too much that I'm not Young?

Let's turn it around: What if Young HAD done it? Had just vented that room? We'd be 50 pages deep in multiple threads about what a heartless monster Young was to have done such a thing, whether it was Rush or Telford and I'm sure that a lot of those posters would be raising the point that Young didn't know WHO he was killing. Or, in the case of what happened in the episode, sparing. He spared a man's life. Does it really matter whether the life he spared was Rush's or Telford's?

And further, since it's Young that you mention that should have been on the end of a radio call about Rush, who was responsible for that call, if it should have been made? Is TJ responsible because she didn't call Young immediately?

I don't know if anyone in here has ever had anyone shooting at them, or been in a position where their lives have been in that kind of danger, but I'm wondering if you have any idea just how fluid time gets? How fast things are really moving? Sure, on the tv, all these things play out in a logical order because that's the way it's cut together to look. It gives the illusion that everything is happening sequentially when in fact, everything could be happening at the same time. So thinking that there is time to do something? Maybe not so much

Plans change in warfare all the time, when the facts on the ground change. Not wanting to kill your own people would definitely qualify as a change.

Do I think Young is perfect or that he handled the situation perfectly? No. But clearly the writers don't either, as they make a point of showing the man second-guessing himself in a major way (how often do you see THAT in a show?). He's not perfect, but he's not incompetent either. He has to change his plans, to, as he said, do things the hard way. Rush is alive. Telford is alive. Like the "torture" threads before, the only way that Young comes out as incompetent is if he loses. If he doesn't lose?

[Blackhole]

I have a real problem with the word incompetent here.

I think that there is a lot of 20/20 hindsight and people assuming that people knew what they knew in time to do anything. If I was in Young's position, would I have vented the air in that room? Yeah, I would. But that's the thing, *I* would. If you're a guy on the floor of that gateroom and want to come out of it alive, *I* might not be the one you'd want with life or death control over your life because I would kill. Can I stress too much that I'm not Young?

Let's turn it around: What if Young HAD done it? Had just vented that room? We'd be 50 pages deep in multiple threads about what a heartless monster Young was to have done such a thing, whether it was Rush or Telford and I'm sure that a lot of those posters would be raising the point that Young didn't know WHO he was killing. Or, in the case of what happened in the episode, sparing. He spared a man's life. Does it really matter whether the life he spared was Rush's or Telford's?

And further, since it's Young that you mention that should have been on the end of a radio call about Rush, who was responsible for that call, if it should have been made? Is TJ responsible because she didn't call Young immediately?

I don't know if anyone in here has ever had anyone shooting at them, or been in a position where their lives have been in that kind of danger, but I'm wondering if you have any idea just how fluid time gets? How fast things are really moving? Sure, on the tv, all these things play out in a logical order because that's the way it's cut together to look. It gives the illusion that everything is happening sequentially when in fact, everything could be happening at the same time. So thinking that there is time to do something? Maybe not so much

Plans change in warfare all the time, when the facts on the ground change. Not wanting to kill your own people would definitely qualify as a change.

Do I think Young is perfect or that he handled the situation perfectly? No. But clearly the writers don't either, as they make a point of showing the man second-guessing himself in a major way (how often do you see THAT in a show?). He's not perfect, but he's not incompetent either. He has to change his plans, to, as he said, do things the hard way. Rush is alive. Telford is alive. Like the "torture" threads before, the only way that Young comes out as incompetent is if he loses. If he doesn't lose?

I think TJ was definitely at fault for not immediately radioing Young with her crucial bit of information.

I agree that hindsight is always 20/20. But the episode made it a point of having O’Neill tell Young that he made the wrong decision. Why would they do that if not to show that Young’s judgment was in question?

And there is no reason I can see for why Young did not terminate their stone connection except to protect Telford at Rush’s expense; that action reflected poor judgment imo and was very unfair to Rush. It is terribly unfortunate that Telford was brainwashed; but Rush is far more valuable to Destiny than Telford is; and Young should have given his life a higher priority. It seemed that Young delayed breaking their connection to protect Telford. If he had terminated their connection earlier, Rush would have provided very valuable intell as to the size of the invading force, what equipment they may bring and how soon an attack could be made. I think Young showed very poor judgment by his apparent favoritism to Telford. I can understand that Telford was his friend but Young needs to be able to make dispassionate decisions that are in the best interests of Destiny.

SGU delights in presenting flawed characters in ambiguous situations and that may be what they are doing now. And you are right if it all works out then Young may be vindicated. But the question I am pondering now is should he be?

[FoX-1028]

Im sure it wasnt Franklin who killed him..

Spoiler:

Damn the Spoilers

[Sapphire_Jade]

Okay this is something that was bugging me. When Young told Brody to put air back into the room he went to do CPR on Telford. And yes getting the heart pumping is key, but Telford just suffocated Young should have given him 2 breaths then started compressions because Telford's heart stopped beating beacuse of lack of oxygen to it just doing compressions wouldn't help air needs to get to the bloodstream so it can get to the heart so the heart can start beating again.. Did anyone else notice that?

[jelgate]

Okay this is something that was bugging me. When Young told Brody to put air back into the room he went to do CPR on Telford. And yes getting the heart pumping is key, but Telford just suffocated Young should have given him 2 breaths then started compressions because Telford's heart stopped beating beacuse of lack of oxygen to it just doing compressions wouldn't help air needs to get to the bloodstream so it can get to the heart so the heart can start beating again.. Did anyone else notice that?

Its been suggested by many medical organizations to no longer do rescues breathes when conducting CPR

[EllieVee]

I agree. Young's character is disliked by some on this board. Through the glasses of their negative feelings any action taken by him will be condemned. You are right he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Pot meet kettle.

[Sapphire_Jade]

Its been suggested by many medical organizations to no longer do rescues breathes when conducting CPR

Yeah that is true if the person is suffering from cardiac arrest which Telford was not he was suffocating. And rescue breathing is still recommended is suffocation situations.

[jmoz]

No ricochet huh?

[SantaSlayer]

Oh man! I totally loved this episode especially where it shows the hardship of making the right call/ decision when your a military leader and the firefight was interesting too with those instant door openers. I'm also hoping Telford wont die or disappear cuz my respect for him ever since Subversion went up significantly and plus his a good guy know.. I think.

[SG7]

It's still shooting fish in a barrel. So they are only trained at shooting static targets? Doesn't the room have balconies on both sides giving them good field of vision?

Then apparently either they have an extremely large barrel or they can't shoot their way out of said barrel. I would hope that they know how to shoot at moving targets. I do believe that's what they are trained for. Though correct me if I'm wrong.

What would be sad was if suddenly in next episode we see TJ mow down a whole bunch of the LA people.....

It's still putting men in danger for no good reason. They had a good plan and it only failed because Young bottled it at the last moment. Any officer that puts his people in danger when there are perfectly good alternatives is a lunatic. Even though they could have good fields of fire, it's such a tight space casualties would be inevitable.

Unfortunately unless he was to have vented the room before they had gotten through the gate, I don't think the plan would have worked, given how quickly they were able to get through the gateroom door.

I think its because they have no redshirts... Ive said it from day 1.... 80 people was to little to strand... Now if they have a few firefights they've already killed off like half there military and they're going to run out of people quick... never mind have no redshirts to play around with in future seasons.. If they just stranded like 130+... they would have a lot more redshirts to toy around with so we can have more action..

Assuming that they don't pick up a bunch of alien people(s) along the way that they can dispose of when needed.

[SG7]

She's a military officer, she has to make the decision when to go and when some people's lives must be sacrificed. It's a bit of a plot hole that they didn't beam the crew, presumably there was some sort of interference at the time though because she gave the order to beam SGC personnel up from the planet.

If I recall correctly she indicated that beaming technology couldn't be used there. No beaming in. No beaming out. And I think that the fighter pilots were within the field that prevented beaming them out.

Did Young make an idiotic mistake not venting the atmosphere? Yes he did, but people make mistakes in reality, and it fits his character. His realization that this one mistake of his caused the entire hostage situation drives him to want to get everyone back.
As for flash bangs the firefight clearly is shown happening round narrow winding corridors, which is the perfect situation for the use of flash bangs. And honestly how would Goa'uld stun grenades make any difference, they do exactly the same as flash bangs do in real life. Arguably their less effective, creating no noise or smoke to conceal movement.

I have a feeling that Young's poor decision making will be something that will affect future episodes. And I also have a feeling that it will be something that will haunt him and he will have to wrestle with the ramifications of that decision for a while.

[LavisBlade]

About time a Warcraft joke showed up.