'Incursion, Part 1' (119) General Discussion

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

First I think venting the gate room would have put both of their lives (at the time that is what he and everybody else thought would happen) at grave risk. It is very easy with 20/20 hindsight to look back and pick flaws with what was done on a fictional space TV show. Trying to argue how it could have been done is just speculation and will not prove anything. I don’t agree that his choice not to sacrifice two lives makes him incompetent. Personally, I admire his compassion; Rush was invaluable to the ship and couldn’t afford to be lost.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion; you are free along with others to agree with O'Neill that he should have vented the gate room and sacrificed both of them to avert the attack.

And in all fairness I will say again O’Neill’s assessment is hypocritical; when the Replicators still had Sam he could have stopped them if he had used his disruptor weapon on their ship before it lifted off; he was unwilling to fire because it would have meant sacrificing her life to do so. In that instance the stakes were far higher than just the take over of a space ship; our entire galaxy was at risk from a Replicator invasion.

I think this point has been debated thoroughly enough so I am going to agree to disagree with you.

If he had vented the room and everyone thought he had just killed Rush, can you imagine what a stink that would have made? The guy's damned no matter what he does, it seems

[Blackhole]

If he had vented the room and everyone thought he had just killed Rush, can you imagine what a stink that would have made? The guy's damned no matter what he does, it seems

I agree. Young's character is disliked by some on this board. Through the glasses of their negative feelings any action taken by him will be condemned. You are right he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

[kymeric]

Really they shouldnt have killed any LA members, theyre short on humans for that side of the universe and 75 people isnt a robust enough gene pool for a sustainable population. The addition of 50-70 LA humans genetically seperated from earth for at least 2000 years is a huge bonus!

[Kaiphantom]

First I think venting the gate room would have put both of their lives (at the time that is what he and everybody else thought would happen) at grave risk. It is very easy with 20/20 hindsight to look back and pick flaws with what was done on a fictional space TV show. Trying to argue how it could have been done is just speculation and will not prove anything. I don’t agree that his choice not to sacrifice two lives makes him incompetent. Personally, I admire his compassion; Rush was invaluable to the ship and couldn’t afford to be lost.

The problem is, Rush was never in any danger. And Young should have known that, so there is no "both." Working with just the information he has, the second he sees Telford in the gate room, he orders the stones disconnected. Obviously, they switched back automatically, but we wouldn't know that at the time. We would know that disconnecting the stones would switch them back.

Then, working on the information available at the time, we would know that only Telford was at risk.

That's it. Just 1 guy. 1 guy at risk, with no guarantee that he'd even die. And it's very likely he could be saved.

Forget hindsight, because it's not applicable; all the information we'd need to know was available at the time. Young just wasn't capable of making good decisions. He's failed in his duty, and if he were on Earth, he'd at least be disciplined, and probably tossed out of the air force altogether. If you screw up that badly, you do not deserve to wear a colonel's uniform.

For what it's worth, Jack should have got punishment, but he had consistently shown good judgment prior to the replicator incident. He had literally pulled Earth's ass out of the fire, so he can be given leeway. Young has made a ton more bad decisions, one of which led to a crew mutiny. I like the guy, but he's a bad leader and it's time to see if someone else can do better. If everyone else is worse, then sure, put him back in charge, or create some sort of democracy council.

[kwlafayette]

If he had vented the room and everyone thought he had just killed Rush, can you imagine what a stink that would have made? The guy's damned no matter what he does, it seems

Rush had to have known that was a possibility, being killed, when he insisted on doing the mission in the first place. But he knows so much, there is just no way he could have been allowed to take such a risk, even in Young thought Rush was LA. It seems like there are about 4 or 5 main scientists on board, Rush, Eli, and a few others that would never be allowed to risk their lives for basically little to no chance at anything.

Also, he knows so much, that once word gets back that the LA has him, you have to figure that eventually they will know it is Rush, and he would not have been allowed to stay captured, they would have cut the stones. So much about the last two episodes does not make sense.

[Kaiphantom]

If he had vented the room and everyone thought he had just killed Rush, can you imagine what a stink that would have made? The guy's damned no matter what he does, it seems

Rush wasn't in any danger. Young could have killed the LA and saved Rush. He is only damned by *not* venting the atmosphere.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

Rush wasn't in any danger. Young could have killed the LA and saved Rush. He is only damned by *not* venting the atmosphere.

Young had no way to know it wasn't rush. Even Volker thought it was Rush. It's easy to look back and see what you could have done differently. He made the choice he made at the time thinking he could save a man's life. You're right, what a monster! </sarcasm>

[Kaiphantom]

Young had no way to know it wasn't rush. Even Volker thought it was Rush. It's easy to look back and see what you could have done differently. He made the choice he made at the time thinking he could save a man's life. You're right, what a monster! </sarcasm>

You are forgetting the stones. Disconnect the stones, which only takes 30 seconds at most, and you know for sure it was Telford.

Thus, Rush was in no danger.

[Blackhole]

The problem is, Rush was never in any danger. And Young should have known that, so there is no "both." Working with just the information he has, the second he sees Telford in the gate room, he orders the stones disconnected. Obviously, they switched back automatically, but we wouldn't know that at the time. We would know that disconnecting the stones would switch them back.

Then, working on the information available at the time, we would know that only Telford was at risk.

That's it. Just 1 guy. 1 guy at risk, with no guarantee that he'd even die. And it's very likely he could be saved.

You are right ordering the stones disconnected upon seeing Telford’s body would only have put Telford at risk. Telford had committed atrocities but had been brainwashed and wasn’t responsible I can understand Young’s desire to not to want to sacrifice his life.

I have given Young's action further thought. Young has to realize that LA’s invading force was going to likely be more than well equipped enough to successful take over the ship. I think his defense to vent the gate room to space was a reasonable plan. I also think it could reasonably be expected that Young would know that his plan was of limited value because LA would likely have anticipated his stratagem and have countermeasures in place to deal with it; hence their masks and rapid door openers. Once Young saw Telford in the gate room he may have considered that his value as a mole in their ranks was by far their most valuable asset and needed to be protected. LA would likely think his brainwashing was still in place and would still trust him. His decision not to vent the atmosphere may have not only reflected his reluctance to sacrifice his friend but to preserve their most important strategic asset.

Venting the atmosphere would have gained Young little and at the time he could have reasonably expected that it could have killed Telford. I think he was wise not to try.

Looking back venting the chamber would have yielded little because their door opening devices would have in a matter of seconds opened the door. And since at lease several of the invaders had masks; we don’t know if they all didn’t have them.

Imo I think it will be Telford’s unknown change of allegiance that will be the critical and deciding factor in preventing Destiny’s takeover by the LA.

[Kaiphantom]

I have given Young's action further thought. Young has to realize that LA’s invading force was going to likely be more than well equipped enough to successful take over the ship. I think his defense to vent the gate room to space was a reasonable plan. I also think it could reasonably be expected that Young would know that his plan was of limited value because LA would likely have anticipated his stratagem and have countermeasures in place to deal with it; hence their masks and rapid door openers.

You're thinking too much, and trying to make Young into a hero, no matter how bad it looks for him. There is *nothing* short of space suits that would have saved the LA if the atmosphere was vented. Nothing. Venting atmosphere is not the same as just venting oxygen; read on space sometime. A hard vacuum is murder on the body for longer than a minute. Gas masks do nothing for someone in a vacuum with no oxygen. They wouldn't have even had the time to use their door-openers. The best Young could have assumed, is that they'd come with explosives to blow the doors. Hesitating gives them a chance to use those.

Once Young saw Telford in the gate room he may have considered that his value as a mole in their ranks was by far their most valuable asset and needed to be protected. LA would likely think his brainwashing was still in place and would still trust him. His decision not to vent the atmosphere may have not only reflected his reluctance to sacrifice his friend but to preserve their most important strategic asset.

Do you understand what you're saying? "Let's surrender part of the ship to known hostiles, with unknown abilities. This will get us... I dunno what it will get us, but giving them part of the ship and thus endangering everyone's lives I'm sworn to protect is obviously better than eliminating a known hostile enemy force."

Looking back venting the chamber would have yielded little because their door opening devices would have in a matter of seconds opened the door. And since at lease several of the invaders had masks; we don’t know if they all didn’t have them.

Yielded little? "Yes sir, eliminating the enemy and thereby saving the lives of those under our command would actually yield very little. I recommend we don't fire, and instead surrender totally, actually. That way, we'll have them totally at our mercy!"

Imo I think it will be Telford’s unknown change of allegiance that will be the critical and deciding factor in preventing Destiny’s takeover by the LA.

Without revealing too much(I know how things turn out), just gonna say this thought is incorrect.

[mjwalshe]

1. What good would dialing another planet do? With all the tech the LA have, I'm pretty sure they know how to shut down the gate and dial again. And besides, was it even Rush who dialed it?

2. The only way they could've taken advantage of their position would be to have soldiers physically in the gate room. Which would be risking their lives if the LA had thrown some grenades through before they stepped through.And by the time they realized the LA weren't doing that it was too late - they were already clear of the gate.



Not really. First of all, they're definitely not terrorists. And as far as mercenaries - w/e mercenaries they have are working for them following orders etc. If mercenaries were running the show it would defeat the purpose of being a mercenary (paradox)

wel a lot of Merc's did gain power condotta in Italy for example and the Janisarries had considerable power in the Ottoman empire untill 1826

[Blackhole]

You're thinking too much, and trying to make Young into a hero, no matter how bad it looks for him. There is *nothing* short of space suits that would have saved the LA if the atmosphere was vented. Nothing. Venting atmosphere is not the same as just venting oxygen; read on space sometime. A hard vacuum is murder on the body for longer than a minute. Gas masks do nothing for someone in a vacuum with no oxygen. They wouldn't have even had the time to use their door-openers. The best Young could have assumed, is that they'd come with explosives to blow the doors. Hesitating gives them a chance to use those.

Do you understand what you're saying? "Let's surrender part of the ship to known hostiles, with unknown abilities. This will get us... I dunno what it will get us, but giving them part of the ship and thus endangering everyone's lives I'm sworn to protect is obviously better than eliminating a known hostile enemy force."

Yielded little? "Yes sir, eliminating the enemy and thereby saving the lives of those under our command would actually yield very little. I recommend we don't fire, and instead surrender totally, actually. That way, we'll have them totally at our mercy!"

Without revealing too much(I know how things turn out), just gonna say this thought is incorrect.

I watched the episode again and you are right. Volker indicated that the room would have been in a vacuum in less than a minute. TJ had time and should have immediately radioed Young that the connection was broken and/or Young should have immediately ordered the stone connection terminated once he saw Telford in the gate room. If he had then ordered the gate room evacuated all of the invaders would have died and the attack averted. Telford would have been sacrificed but it would have been an acceptable loss. Young made the wrong choice.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

I watched the episode again and you are right. Volker indicated that the room would have been in a vacuum in less than a minute. TJ had time and should have immediately radioed Young that the connection was broken and/or Young should have immediately ordered the stone connection terminated once he saw Telford in the gate room. If he had then ordered the gate room evacuated all of the invaders would have died and the attack averted. Telford would have been sacrificed but it would have been an acceptable loss. Young made the wrong choice.

Remember, to TJ's thinking, Young has the plan to vent the atmosphere and she has no idea what's going on out there because she's "safe" in the infirmary. I still think far too many posters are assuming that because they've seen everything that's going on, that the characters have that same information. TJ likely believes it'll all be over in a minute and so doesn't know that it's importantr that it's Rush. Young still thinks it's Rush in the gateroom. This is the informatiuon they have to work with.

[PG15]

Has anyone here read Joe Mallozzi's blog yet?

Here's his answer to this question (which was asked many times):

HBMC writes: “The way the Lucian Alliance succeeded in Incursion 1 was just absurd, especially when you consider at the start of the ep we saw it was possible to have a person unconscious on the ground after a few mins of venting air.

You vent the air for half that amount of time, and every LA member is then on the ground gasping for air, which incapacitates them, which then allows Young’s group to rush in and take them all without firing a shot.”

Answer: Ah, the benefits of Monday morning quaterbacking. Young vents the atmosphere in Telford’s quarters in order to kill him – bring him to the brink and back – because he has no other options. That is the only proven way to overcome the brainwashing. And there was no guarantee it would even work.

The same logic would apply to the attackers in the gate room. Yes, he could have vented the atmosphere immediately and killed them as per his initial plan, but when he saw Telford come through the gate, he elected to offer the Lucian Alliance the opportunity to surrender. It wouldn’t have cost him anything but time and could well have saved Telford’s life. If they’d refused, he would simply go back to Plan A and vent the atmosphere – which he does, but too late because the attackers have technology he wasn’t expecting them to have.

Immediately venting the atmosphere and waiting until they were presumably incapacitated would have made even less sense. How would you know who is incapacitated and who isn’t incapacitated? How could you be certain that some Lucian Alliance members couldn’t be holding their breath, playing possum, in the same amount of time it would take for Telford to suffocate?

http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/...heavy-mailbag/

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

Has anyone here read Joe Mallozzi's blog yet?

Here's his answer to this question (which was asked many times):



http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/...heavy-mailbag/

thanks, and yeah, I agree. The two scenarios are about as far apart as you could get, with one being a completely closed and controlled event and the second? Not so much.