'Incursion, Part 1' (119) General Discussion

[Shan Bruce Lee]

Yes, but it would have bought time for the SG units to advance on the base. And maybe she wouldn't have realized he dialed a different planet, in which case they all would have ended up on a different planet. But it's not too big of a deal.



Yes, you can. Basic medical knowledge. They said it would take 1 minute to vent the atmosphere. Given the large number of people, and the small volume of the room, the air would have been used up within another minute. After that, people start dropping and losing strength. 1 minute later, and everyone is on the floor, unable to move, gasping for breath. 2 minutes later, and they are all out like a light. This is basic knowledge about human physiology.

And some are dead and some aren't and you still have to turn the air back on before your troops can enter etc, etc..

[kwlafayette]

I would have liked to see the episode have been written this way where Young did start venting the room, but the LA people with their lock pick mechanisms negate the venting by moving into other rooms. At least it wouldn't have made Young look dumb.

I'm sorry to say that I don't agree with JM's "Monday morning quarterbacking" analogy. It sounds like more of a excuse on his part to me. This episode could have been structured so much better in my view, but wasn't.

Also with JM's comment about the reason the LA wanting the Destiny not being immediately known is fine in my view as long as someone within the show is asking the same question. Why no character brought this up is one other reason I think the episode ended up being weak. We don't have to be told, but at least the question shoud have been asked by someone. It could have been a one or two sentence exchange between Young and Telford after the brainwashing was gone. Telford could have simply stated that it was one of the things that Kiva was keeping to herself and would not tell him.

Just one of the weak points. The second question Rush should have asked, after "why didn't you vent the gate room", was, "why hasn't anyone relieved you of command". What did he give them, 35 minutes of sitting in the gate room, to recover and get organized, before he finally gets around to giving the command? Once they knew the LA were coming, they should have simply sealed the gate room, and left it in vacuum till further notice. You can go in with space suits and rescue one or two individuals for questioning even, if you feel the need.

[EllieVee]

Just one of the weak points. The second question Rush should have asked, after "why didn't you vent the gate room", was, "why hasn't anyone relieved you of command". What did he give them, 35 minutes of sitting in the gate room, to recover and get organized, before he finally gets around to giving the command? Once they knew the LA were coming, they should have simply sealed the gate room, and left it in vacuum till further notice. You can go in with space suits and rescue one or two individuals for questioning even, if you feel the need.

Maybe that's what Rush is asking in this pic from Incursion 2 ...

Spoiler:

[the fifth man]

Rush does know how to push Young's buttons.

[Kaiphantom]

And some are dead and some aren't and you still have to turn the air back on before your troops can enter etc, etc..

Yes, some are dead, but that is what happens in a battle; you at least did it without wasting ammo. Turning the air back on inside isn't a big deal; it would only take maybe 10 seconds to reestablish normal atmosphere, and you can at least save Telford while getting all their weapons out of the way, and reviving people as you can.

Edit: Heck, while we're on the subject of room venting, I'll state right now it was a bad plan. Why? Because a good military commander should have assumed that an invading force would come armed with bombs. Explosive devices. Room starts to vent? They just blow open a door. I'm damn surprised the LA came without such things (unless they have, and we just haven't seen yet).

So I stand by my decision of: sever the stones, vent the room. Or station guards in the room and shoot(or club) people as they come through. They are in no shape to fight back upon being tossed through the gate, disoriented. Either way is a risk, but the point is: you do not hesitate.

[Blackhole]

JM has written some good episodes before, but he should take it as a hint if so many (including Jack O'Neill!) are calling Young out on this. It's basic knowledge that a human without air *will* pass out within a few minutes. Some people can hold their breath for up to 5 minutes, but that takes *heavy* training. At best, someone can probably only hold their breath for up to two minutes.

Out of all those LA guys, one, maybe two could probably hold their breath that long, or have the presence of mind to *know* the atmosphere was being vented and thus hold their breath. Odds are, they only would have made the connection when they were gasping for breath for a little bit. They might even just assume that it's just the air being thin on Destiny naturally.

But here's the thing: someone can still be revived after 5 minutes without oxygen. That's more that enough time to knock *everyone* out, as surely as if you gassed the room. Start venting the room after about 3 minutes. 1 minute to get all the air out, 2-3 minutes to know *for sure* that everyone is knocked out. For giggles, you wait another 2 minutes, then enter. As soon as someone shows signs of moving, you shoot them. Yes, there is a *chance* that someone could be holding their breath, and may get a shot off; but even if he manages to hit someone before he's shot attempting to get up, there are the flak vests and someone who is shot can still be saved.

War isn't pretty, and is never 100% safe. The military should know this, and be prepared to take those steps to safeguard the lives of the people they have sworn to protect. If they can't do that role, they are unfit for it. You can't play things 100% safe; there is no such thing.

You can derogatorily refer to it as Monday morning armchair quarterbacking, but based on everything known at the time, you do not take chances with a hostile inbound enemy force. Shoot first, ask questions later. If you do so, you give them the chance to strike first or do something you don't expect, like they did.

That said, I know the purpose of this episode was to get the LA onto the ship. Just like the first episode's role was to get the first group onto the ship, so Rush had to do something stupid as well. The issue is, Rush's actions in the first episode are at least plausible. Young's actions, in this episode, are not. The moment he saw Telford, he should have ordered the stones disconnected and begun venting the room. Or start venting the instant the stargate shuts down.

Yes, the LA has it's door openers, but by the time they figured out what was going on and got them in place, the LA would have been severely weakened by the lack of oxygen that any ensuing firefight would have gone badly against them.

There is no reason why he should have hesitated in venting the room.

What happens if the LA have short term breathing apparatus with them? Young vents the atmosphere they put on their equipment and don't go down and Telford's body dies killing both of them? Besides if they were all disabled then what happens for the next two episodes? Young didn't vent the room because the writers didn't write it that way. Imo trying to suggest he is incompetent is over analyzing the episode.

[GateroomGuard]

Maybe that's what Rush is asking in this pic from Incursion 2 ...

Spoiler:

There are so many captions I'm thinking of with that image.

[Kaiphantom]

What happens if the LA have short term breathing apparatus with them?

Then you're down to two or three hostiles, instead of 30? Wait til everyone else is out like a light, and go in guns blazing. You can mow down 2 or 3 people easily enough. And with the stones disconnected, you only lose Telford. Like Sam and the 302's, that's an acceptable loss. Instead, now the LA have 10 hostages.

Besides if they were all disabled then what happens for the next two episodes? Young didn't vent the room because the writers didn't write it that way.

This is a good point. They obviously needed to get the LA onto the ship. I'm merely saying it could have been handled better. Feel free to ask if you want, because I can think of a dozen different ways to do it.

Imo trying to suggest he is incompetent is over analyzing the episode.

Not when Jack all but says it. He *is* incompetent. He has a command he cannot handle, and has proved that time and again. And hey, I was liking the guy lately.

[Blackhole]

This is a good point. They obviously needed to get the LA onto the ship. I'm merely saying it could have been handled better. Feel free to ask if you want, because I can think of a dozen different ways to do it.

From a tactical point of view I agree with you that venting the room would have been a better strategy. I just don't think it was written that way to portray Young as less competent but as a plot device to get LA on the ship for a longer invasion story and to show that Young is not willing to sacrifice lives even when other commanders may have done so in the same situation.

And in all fairness O’Neil is a hypocrite; when the Replicators still had Sam he could have stopped them if he had used his disruptor weapon on their ship before it lifted off; he was unwilling to fire because it would have meant sacrificing her life to do so.

[Shan Bruce Lee]

Yes, some are dead, but that is what happens in a battle; you at least did it without wasting ammo. Turning the air back on inside isn't a big deal; it would only take maybe 10 seconds to reestablish normal atmosphere, and you can at least save Telford while getting all their weapons out of the way, and reviving people as you can.

Edit: Heck, while we're on the subject of room venting, I'll state right now it was a bad plan. Why? Because a good military commander should have assumed that an invading force would come armed with bombs. Explosive devices. Room starts to vent? They just blow open a door. I'm damn surprised the LA came without such things (unless they have, and we just haven't seen yet).

So I stand by my decision of: sever the stones, vent the room. Or station guards in the room and shoot(or club) people as they come through. They are in no shape to fight back upon being tossed through the gate, disoriented. Either way is a risk, but the point is: you do not hesitate.

yeah, you're not wasting ammo until one of those b*******s pops up and starts firing on you. Then you're wasting who knows how much.

And they did come armed with devices... the devices that they used to unlock the doors. That's the whole point. A key that unlocks any door nullifies a vented atmosphere.

[Kaiphantom]

From a tactical point of view I agree with you that venting the room would have been a better strategy. I just don't think it was written that way to portray Young as less competent but as a plot device to get LA on the ship for a longer invasion story and to show that Young is not willing to sacrifice lives even when other commanders may have done so in the same situation.

The problem is, he would have been risking only one life, Telford's. And there's a fairly good chance he would have been able to save Telford, too, by reviving him when everyone else is out.

And in all fairness O’Neil is a hypocrite; when the Replicators still had Sam he could have stopped them if he had used his disruptor weapon on their ship before it lifted off; he was unwilling to fire because it would have meant sacrificing her life to do so.[/QUOTE]

Hypocrite or no, someone else's screw-up does not justify Young's. Carter made the necessary sacrifice to save the people on the Hammond.

yeah, you're not wasting ammo until one of those b*******s pops up and starts firing on you. Then you're wasting who knows how much.

Why not? You are honestly willing to tell me that if someone is coming at you with a gun, you won't shoot him until he fires first? Let me know how well that works out for ya.

And they did come armed with devices... the devices that they used to unlock the doors. That's the whole point. A key that unlocks any door nullifies a vented atmosphere.

That's exactly the point. JM made the point in the blog that the people on Destiny didn't expect the LA to have those door picks; that's the whole rationale and basis for why venting the room was such a great idea. But it all falls flat on it's face once you realize that they should have assumed the LA had explosives with which to blow the doors at the very least. Which means venting the room wouldn't have worked in the first place, unless they did it before the LA even showed up.

So either they should have vented the atmosphere the instant they saw the LA come through, or they should have stationed guards in the room to take out people as they came through. Two guards, one on either side of the gate, and you could use one bullet per LA member as they came through. They get shot through the gate and tumble to the floor. *BAM!* Dead LA.

And at that rate, they rake in more ammo and weapons then they'd use, by taking them from the LA.

[Blackhole]

The problem is, he would have been risking only one life, Telford's. And there's a fairly good chance he would have been able to save Telford, too, by reviving him when everyone else is out.

Venting the air in the gateroom would have been far different than when he did so in Telford's compartment. There it was a controlled environment and Young knew he could immediately get to Rush's body to revive him. In the gateroom he may not have been able to get to Telford's body in time to revive him which would as far as he knew at the time have cost both of their lives. All the LA had to have had was portable breathing apparatus and the delay would likely have been fatal for Telford's body. Young was unwilling to chance it.

[Redhooks]

But you said yourself the LA would negate the venting by using the lock-pick devices. So we'd still end up in the same place either way.

Did you EVEN READ what I said??? I said that it would have been better for the Young character to have done the right thing and vent the gate room only to have the LA personnel ruin his plans by getting the doors open before they went unconscious. I wasn't saying the end situation would be different, just how it got that way would have been different and in my view, much better.

[EllieVee]

Rush does know how to push Young's buttons.

They're easily pushed.

From a tactical point of view I agree with you that venting the room would have been a better strategy. I just don't think it was written that way to portray Young as less competent but as a plot device to get LA on the ship for a longer invasion story and to show that Young is not willing to sacrifice lives even when other commanders may have done so in the same situation.

And yet, that's how, in combination with every other incompetent decision he's made, how he comes across.

And in all fairness O’Neil is a hypocrite; when the Replicators still had Sam he could have stopped them if he had used his disruptor weapon on their ship before it lifted off; he was unwilling to fire because it would have meant sacrificing her life to do so.

That's cos he was in lurv with her ...

[General Jumper One]

And in all fairness O’Neil is a hypocrite

O'Neill, two Ls, (holds up three fingers)

Spoiler:

That takes me back