'Incursion, Part 1' (119) General Discussion

[hisg1fans]

I liked this episode ! Especially, Jack chewing out Young because he should have vented the gate room immediately when the gate was dialing in. TJ needs to take down the evil LA Commander Chick.

So what vaporized the LA guy? Destiny? Can the ship tell "bad" guys from "good" guys? Something the Smurfs left behind? Lots of questions.

[Pharaoh Atem]

LOL, that would of been priceless. She would of just dragged him.

i don't think she could even do that. eli's just to heavy

[major davis]

I don't exactly go around keeping a count. The point is its not that many in comparassion to the other Stargate series

Lol your probably right... I'm crazy.... Still... I think stranding more would have been better!

[Kaiphantom]

Actually not putting people in the gate room was the best idea. Gating to Destiny from the Milky Way as we have seen throws people out violently, and at speed. Put people on the ground level next to the stargate and you've got a whole horrible mess of LA personnel being thrown out of the stargate in and amongst you, then it's not a firefight ,it would descend into a brawl and the advantage that Young's personnel would have would be negated. Putting people up on the balcony overlooking the stargate would also seem like a good idea, good field of fire and if it were a normal gate assault this would work perfectly, mow down the LA as they walked through. Except they don't walk through, they get shot through at speed, enough so that more than likely several could scramble underneath the balcony, and then you've got to find some way to dislodge them.

I have to disagree. People get launched out of the gate, true, but not that far. And here's the kicker... they hit the ground and are dazed and disoriented for a few moments. Forget guns; give everyone a club and whack people across the back of the head as they come through. Take their weapons and toss them away.

If I were writing that scene, I would have had the LA using those old Goa'uld grenades; you know the ones, that emit a bright light and knock everyone out. At least that would have made sense, and made a more realistic takeover of the ship. And tied into continuity as well! The only detail left is the venting of the atmosphere, but a larger version of the grenade that knocks out people in a larger radius, through walls, would have sufficed.

Then we move to the corridors. Those things are so narrow that it should be damn easy to contain her troops. They have to come through a narrow passageway, which should have made it easy to hit shoot anyone trying to come down (unless they had those goauld grenades, which they didn't). Unless Kiva had been willing to sacrifice many of her men to take the corridors, and it's hard to tell exactly what happened in that firefight, but it appears she didn't lose much, if any, of her men.

[yet]

He thought it was still Rush in there, and if he died, their odds of ever gaining complete control over the ship (or any number of scientific or technical problems) would plummet. He's too valuable to just kill without at least making an attempt to rescue him.

He should have evacuated the air and ordered the stone room to pull the stone and even try to revive Telford after. the gas masks didn't look like they were oxygen masks.

[guruguru]

Why did not Young vent the air anyway and take a chance on reviving Telford afterward, this would of been my choise. I see this episode as a way to introduce more characters into destiny. At least Kiva stay alive and join Destiny crew (guess).

Ps. Kiva means nice in finnish.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

SGU – Incursion, Part 1
xxxevilgrinxxx

In a lot of ways, I found this episode to be a lot like “Divided”. On the surface, there is the very obvious 'us' and 'them' theme with the Destiny crew on one hand and the Lucian Alliance on the other but, as with so much about Stargate Universe, the writers aren't content to leave things that simply spelled out. There are all sorts of divisions taking place here and some unexpected coalitions as well.

One of the larger divisions that stood out for me was not between crew member and boarder, but within Col. Young himself. The very first answer to boarders was to vent the atmosphere, to kill everyone as they waited there in the gateroom until they could move on further. As a plan, it doesn't get more pure than that and it's a sound military strategy, one I believe that Young, at some point, would have no problem making. However, it's not that Young that appears to have ended up on Destiny.

Throughout all the episodes so far, we've seen a Young that is haunted at losing people and as much as he has no love for Rush, Rush is nonetheless one of his own people. It would make Incursion a far shorter affair but I believe that Rush is one of the main reasons that Young can't press that button. I don't think he could do it if it was Telford either as it seems clear that the men know each other well enough to be on a first name basis. There is a shared moment between Telford and Young when Telford is relating how it felt to do terrible things (under the control of the Lucian Alliance), when he says 'you don't know how it feels' [paraphrase]. Young offers nothing verbally but there is a look shared that has me believe that Young does know how it feels. Not to be an LA mole, but to do terrible things that he regrets.

I also wonder if Young had not spoken to TJ beforehand, or if she had said something very different, if Young would have continued with a more ruthless plan. I think he would have a hard time facing her again if he had done so, so there is this split between what Young would have done, and what Young would do now. I believe that unease with his military ability and his deep caring for the people aboard the Destiny and not wanting to lose any of them is making him second guess the decisions he is making.

There is a also division forming between Young and Scott. One that I sincerely hope will be mended but one that is formed, I believe, by Scott's seeming inability to draw boundaries. We have seen from the very first episode that Scott has no problem disobeying a direct order when he believes he should. This isn't a bad thing but the behaviour does bleed into other areas, such as his inability to draw the correct boundaries with Greer (Kinosode “Drop the Sirs”) and most recently with Wray in “Subversion”, where he chooses to divulge information to Wray. Some could say that Young hadn't trusted Scott with that information either but I tend to think it's more likely that Young hadn't wanted Scott's hands to be dirty, and through keeping him out of it, that could be avoided. As a learning experience, Scott has learned that Young really does know what he's doing.

An interesting thing that came out of that encounter by the door was Greer's reaction. As much as Scott seems to have trouble with the boundaries, Greer does not. Greer may well be in a position to know even less than Scott does and yet he trusts Young to make the call. Trusts him enough that, when advanced upon by Scott, is willing to set friendship aside if need be and push Scott back.

Another possible division is Rush but I don't see this as likely. Rush may be angry but he was warned about the situation in 'Subversion' and he of all people knew how serious it was. Young and Rush may yell and shout at each other but at the end of the day, Rush is back, quite alive, on board Destiny. The mole has been outed and dealt with, which is what they both wanted. I'm still holding out for a begrudging alliance on this one.

As interesting as the divisions are, I'm finding that the alliances are just as interesting. Greer is clearly solidly behind Young, but that isn't too surprising. Telford and Young go back a long ways so it's not too surprising that Telford would back Young, to the point of preventing harm to TJ. I believe he would do so anyway but the added factor that she's carrying Young's child likely helps.

Brody had shown, in “Subversion” that he had chosen to put faith in Young and this was further proven out when Brody was the first one called and that it took no more than a word for Brody to act. I have to wonder if Brody knew what was happening, or if Brody has decided to put his trust in Young after all of the things he's seen? In any case, I expect this to come out further, perhaps in a Brody backstory?

One alliance I hadn't expected was between Wray and Young. In part I saw it as another way in which Wray inserts herself into a position of authority but in this case, I believe that she did so solely to help and not just to help herself. I'll be interested to see where this goes next week. I believe Wray is naive enough to believe that she can negotiate her way out of this mess but she's not dealing with office politics, she's dealing with people that are more than willing to kill to get what they want and I'm not just talking about the LA.

No discussion of “Incursion” would be complete without mentioning Eli and Chloe. It's always been more than friends, at least from Eli's side but I'm wondering if Chloe is getting a new look at her best friend and if she's measuring the two men in her life in that light.

Finally, there is the Destiny herself. It's too soon to speculate, but is the ship's defences kicking in? Is this why they haven't gone to FTL and why LA crew are little piles of ash?

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

I have to disagree. People get launched out of the gate, true, but not that far. And here's the kicker... they hit the ground and are dazed and disoriented for a few moments. Forget guns; give everyone a club and whack people across the back of the head as they come through. Take their weapons and toss them away.

If I were writing that scene, I would have had the LA using those old Goa'uld grenades; you know the ones, that emit a bright light and knock everyone out. At least that would have made sense, and made a more realistic takeover of the ship. And tied into continuity as well! The only detail left is the venting of the atmosphere, but a larger version of the grenade that knocks out people in a larger radius, through walls, would have sufficed.

Then we move to the corridors. Those things are so narrow that it should be damn easy to contain her troops. They have to come through a narrow passageway, which should have made it easy to hit shoot anyone trying to come down (unless they had those goauld grenades, which they didn't). Unless Kiva had been willing to sacrifice many of her men to take the corridors, and it's hard to tell exactly what happened in that firefight, but it appears she didn't lose much, if any, of her men.

"But they could have done this but they could have done that." Blah blah blah blah. You're looking at it with the benefit of hindsight, Young has a plan that puts none of him men in danger, and expends none of his ammunition, something that he doesn't have much of and needs to hold on to. Had he not bottled it when he saw Telford, then they would have neutralised the LA force cleanly.

As for corridors, the LA did standard breech and clear tactics, they took Young's personnel by surprise, opening the doors then they didn't expect it, threw flash bang grenades through, then used the confusion caused by them to storm in. And they still took casualties. You say it would be easy to contain her troops in the corridor, except it's not, the right set of tactics will get you in and the LA used tactics that pretty much any SWAT team would use on entry to a building.

[Kaiphantom]

"But they could have done this but they could have done that." Blah blah blah blah. You're looking at it with the benefit of hindsight, Young has a plan that puts none of him men in danger, and expends none of his ammunition, something that he doesn't have much of and needs to hold on to. Had he not bottled it when he saw Telford, then they would have neutralised the LA force cleanly.

I'll partially grant this, but it still means Young is an idiot.

As for corridors, the LA did standard breech and clear tactics, they took Young's personnel by surprise, opening the doors then they didn't expect it, threw flash bang grenades through, then used the confusion caused by them to storm in. And they still took casualties. You say it would be easy to contain her troops in the corridor, except it's not, the right set of tactics will get you in and the LA used tactics that pretty much any SWAT team would use on entry to a building.

No, actually, they *did* expect LA to open the doors. Or at least blow them open. That was the whole reason they were covering the corridors. "Standard breech and clear tactics?" No fancy tactics can go against the laws of physics. With a narrow corridor compared to a human, it's not that hard to hit someone. There should have been no way the LA could have gotten down the corridor without massive loss of their men. If Young's people were so far up that they were affected by a flashbang, then it just goes to show that the military is totally incompetent. You position your people back far enough so you have plenty of time to react, with more back out of line of sight, ready to move up if you are incapacitated.

Regardless of the details, the whole scene was still a giant wallbanger, showcasing Young and the military as idiots, with poor writing. He should have vented the atmosphere, and cut off the stones so Rush was in no danger. Odds are, Telford would have lived, too, since humans can be revived after 5 minutes of no air.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

I'll partially grant this, but it still means Young is an idiot.



No, actually, they *did* expect LA to open the doors. Or at least blow them open. That was the whole reason they were covering the corridors. "Standard breech and clear tactics?" No fancy tactics can go against the laws of physics. With a narrow corridor compared to a human, it's not that hard to hit someone. There should have been no way the LA could have gotten down the corridor without massive loss of their men. If Young's people were so far up that they were affected by a flashbang, then it just goes to show that the military is totally incompetent. You position your people back far enough so you have plenty of time to react, with more back out of line of sight, ready to move up if you are incapacitated.

Regardless of the details, the whole scene was still a giant wallbanger, showcasing Young and the military as idiots, with poor writing. He should have vented the atmosphere, and cut off the stones so Rush was in no danger. Odds are, Telford would have lived, too, since humans can be revived after 5 minutes of no air.

How is Young and idiot for wanting to save ammo and personnel?

And if the LA's tactics are such a wallbanger you better check with all the SWAT teams and groups like the SAS who have used tactics successfully. The winding corridors on the Destiney mean you need to stick people near the entrances. And besides which have you ever had a flashbang go off near you? I have. The sheer noise, heat and light created from one leaves you completely disorientated and barely able to function properly. And it don't have to be thrown right next to you to be effective, I was right across the room when someone chucked one in when my unit were conducting OBUA training , if left me utterly disoriented for a good minute. So sticking the military personnel further back isn't really going to work.

And despite this the LA still take casualties, we see LA personnel get shot and we see they have wounded afterwards.

[Inquisitor]

I do not like the way they represented Carter. Carter would have known to beam out the F302 pilots, just like in SGA's season 2 episode 2 The Intruder (Wraith AI episode) they beamed Sheppard onto the bridge.

Sure, they had to in order to make the 'right call' comment, but.. it's Carter. She wouldn't make that mistake.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

I do not like the way they represented Carter. Carter would have known to beam out the F302 pilots, just like in SGA's season 2 episode 2 The Intruder (Wraith AI episode) they beamed Sheppard onto the bridge.

Sure, they had to in order to make the 'right call' comment, but.. it's Carter. She wouldn't make that mistake.

She's a military officer, she has to make the decision when to go and when some people's lives must be sacrificed. It's a bit of a plot hole that they didn't beam the crew, presumably there was some sort of interference at the time though because she gave the order to beam SGC personnel up from the planet.

[BloomGate]

In past SG1 episodes the Lucian Alliance always carried projectile weapons. So while they have Goa'uld technology I buy it that they use guns over energy weapons

You're right. My bad. I just checked Company of Thieves and they had simplistic auto and semi-auto guns. Evidently Telford told them about laser sights among other things.

[nobycane]

I liked this episode ! Especially, Jack chewing out Young because he should have vented the gate room immediately when the gate was dialing in. TJ needs to take down the evil LA Commander Chick.

So what vaporized the LA guy? Destiny? Can the ship tell "bad" guys from "good" guys? Something the Smurfs left behind? Lots of questions.

My thinking on this is that this part of the ship's shields are breaking down due to an influx of power usage. What I mean by that is since the LA gated in, the number of people had probably two-folded, therefore since Rush and his team had only calibrated life support and energy proportions to accommodate the current team from Icarus - the LA coming on board has more than likely put stress on the shields, life support and other essential energy output systems......so the weaker areas are going to collapse first. Remember this in SGA when the Atlantis' shields were failing and all personnel was to evacuate towards the center of the city? Same scenario!

However, why Destiny did not jump into FTL...........I am sure it will be explained next season!

[Kaiphantom]

How is Young and idiot for wanting to save ammo and personnel?

He's an idiot for not venting the atmosphere, and for not disconnecting the stones the instant he saw Telford in the gate room. The whole reason given for him *not* venting the atmosphere, was that he wanted to save Rush. Disconnecting the stones would have done that. And if he wanted to save Telford, venting the atmosphere is not going to kill everyone; a person can be revived after 5 minutes of no oxygen with no brain damage. After that, they can still be revived, but there could be some brain damage, but varies from person to person.

And if the LA's tactics are such a wallbanger you better check with all the SWAT teams and groups like the SAS who have used tactics successfully. The winding corridors on the Destiney mean you need to stick people near the entrances. And besides which have you ever had a flashbang go off near you? I have. The sheer noise, heat and light created from one leaves you completely disorientated and barely able to function properly. And it don't have to be thrown right next to you to be effective, I was right across the room when someone chucked one in when my unit were conducting OBUA training , if left me utterly disoriented for a good minute. So sticking the military personnel further back isn't really going to work.

We've seen plenty of long, straight corridors on Destiny. It's hard to tell exactly what the situation was like there (due to the bad camera angles and motion during the firefight), but the military should have been prepared for something like flashbangs; it should have been part of their training. Regardless, those things have a certain range, and there should have been people out of that range, ready to move up if others are incapacitated. Otherwise, that's just bad tactics, and putting all your eggs in one basket.

As I said, better writing would have been to use those Goa'uld grenades that flash a light and everyone just drops unconscious(like what Bre'tak used one at the end of SG-1's first season). The LA obviously has access to Goa'uld tech.

And despite this the LA still take casualties, we see LA personnel get shot and we see they have wounded afterwards.

Not many, especially given the circumstances.