'Human' (114) General Discussion

[FallenAngelII]

I don't mind the action but let's hope all episodes stays plot driven. I would have never have watched SG1 if it didn't have good sci-fi plots (mysteries, adventures, explorations, intelligent, topical). The action scenes seemed to fit the story for what I recalled. Am i wrong to say that 75% of SG1 episodes didn't involve action? What I remember most is the exploration of planets and other cultures. I'm a big fan of the new Outer Limits and most of the time, there's no action at all, just good sci-fi plots.

Yes, SG-1 featured relatively "little" action when compared to your traditional American action shows.

My point is that the American populus has been so spoiled by years of action-intensive movies that both "Light" and "Human" begot hate-threads where people complained loudly about how they were bored to tears because "nothing happened". Oh, really? Nothing happened? Rush received more character development in "Human" alone than in the vast majority of the first half of the season put together, yet they contend "nothing happened" because what did happen was mostly character interaction, character self-reflection and dialogue-driven instead of action-driven.

People really need to widen their horizons.

[FallenAngelII]

What Asian cinema have you been watching? Have you seen Hard Boiled? The last 40 minutes is nothing but shooting, and most heroic bloodshed, the oh so popular Asian cinema genre, films are much faster paced than American action films.

What part of "I never said there are no Asian action movies that are fast paced!" and "I'm speaking relatively in regards to Asian cinema in general!" were too Dutch voor jou?!

The best, such as John Woo films do feature characterisation and plot, many though are just massive shooting sequences strung together by a paper thin plot.

John Woo movies are Hong Kong action movies, which is an entire genre in and of itself notorious for fast-faced action (and lots of it). How about you instead focus on the examples I brought:
Any Asian movie that's begotten an American remake, most noticeably Japanese horror movies.

Just compare "The Ring" to "Ringu". Or, heck, just take a look at "Ringu 0". There's a reason why there's no American remake of "Ringu 0"; because it's a horror/suspense movie with almost zero action.

As for American action shows, this isn't the 80's, the A team is not the standard. You have 24, which admittedly has gone downhill, but it is not simply shooting and action, much of the praise and the awards the show has won has been over the characters and the actors.

What part of "I never said American shows are all about action all the time!" was too Castillan para tÃ?

I said that American TV shows are generally more action-driven and action-based than, say, Japanese TV shows! There's a huge difference there.

<Lots of talk about two TV shows>

So you're saying based on those two TV shows, you are now prepared to declare American action shows to be very plot-driven? Really?

These shows aren't written as action, more action and then a bit of plot.

Because they're dramas. Especially "The Wire", which is listed as a "drama". Gee, I wonder why it's so focused on the plot and has relatively little action! "24", however, is an action/drama, which also explains why there's so many high-speed chases, gun fights, explosions and massive special effects.

Story and characters are the focus and they arn't afraid to make slower episodes and focus on the characters.

Name 10 action shows in recent memory where they have episodes anywhere remotely like "Human".

There are very few mindless action shows popular on US tv today, you need more to make a show successful.

I characterized American TV shows/action shows as "mindless action" when?

If anything the thing that is lagging behind is scifi tv, which in many ways is still stuck, applying in too many shows action without plot, and we've yet to have the science fiction equivalent of the Wire or the Sopranos because as a genre of tv scifi is struggling to mature.

"The Sopranos", like "The Wire", is not an action show! It's a drama!

Yes and though I disagree with your assessment of Asian cinema and American tv, I agree with your basic point. Are we not allowed to? Are you only happy when you get to play the affronted party who no one will agree with?

How about you actually read my posts before replying to them. It'll help you to not, you know, strawman me.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Yes, SG-1 featured relatively "little" action when compared to your traditional American action shows.

My point is that the American populus has been so spoiled by years of action-intensive movies that both "Light" and "Human" begot hate-threads where people complained loudly about how they were bored to tears because "nothing happened". Oh, really? Nothing happened? Rush received more character development in "Human" alone than in the vast majority of the first half of the season put together, yet they contend "nothing happened" because what did happen was mostly character interaction, character self-reflection and dialogue-driven instead of action-driven.

People really need to widen their horizons.

*sorry if you can't work out which post I was replying too, I forget to quote your post at first *


That is so stereotypical, "it's all Hollywood action movies fault." If that's the case then a lot of Asian cinema which you seem to trumpet isn't very good either, American action flims tend not to have half an hour long shootouts.

And Stargate sg1 did have a lot of action, lets look at a season, say season 5.

Enemies, massive shoot outs with Replicators and Jaffa.

Threshold, ok so not much action.

Ascension, some action with Orlin escaping Earth and him attracting the SG team on the planet, but fine I'll give it too you, not very action orientated.

The Fifth Man, pretty much just a massive shootout with Jaffa.

Red Sky no action

Rite of Passage, they spend quite a bit of the ep chasing Nirti round the base.

Beast of Burden, lots of action trying to free Unas and escape from slavers

The Tomb, everyone wandering around a ziggurat looking for nasty creatures and Goa'uld infested Russians

Between Two Fires, The Goa'uld attack Tollana

Desperate Measures, Russians get ambushed, Carter gets kidnap, big rescue operation

Worhome X treme, no much action

Proving Ground, lots of running round the base, shooting and stunning everyone

48 Hours, lots of action with SG1 escaping a Goa'uld planet then Mayboure and Jack hunting down NID safe houses

Summit and Last Stand both feature the huge attack by the Goa'uld on the Tok'ra

Fail Safe has them mucking around on an asteroid,

The Warrior is about the fledging Jaffa rebellion and has the memorable fight between Kytano and Teal'c

The Sentinel has sg1 trying to fix an alien weapon in the middle of a Goa'uld attack.

Meridan not much action

Revelations has sg1 infiltrating Anubis ships.

So in total in season 5 you have about 5 eps with only a bit of action, that's less than 1/4 of the season, while the other 3/4's is jam packed full of firefights, punch-up's and spaceships.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

What part of "I never said there are no Asian action movies that are fast paced!" and "I'm speaking relatively in regards to Asian cinema in general!" were too Dutch voor jou?!


John Woo movies are Hong Kong action movies, which is an entire genre in and of itself notorious for fast-faced action (and lots of it). How about you instead focus on the examples I brought:
Any Asian movie that's begotten an American remake, most noticeably Japanese horror movies.

Just compare "The Ring" to "Ringu". Or, heck, just take a look at "Ringu 0". There's a reason why there's no American remake of "Ringu 0"; because it's a horror/suspense movie with almost zero action.


What part of "I never said American shows are all about action all the time!" was too Castillan para tÃ?

I said that American TV shows are generally more action-driven and action-based than, say, Japanese TV shows! There's a huge difference there.


So you're saying based on those two TV shows, you are now prepared to declare American action shows to be very plot-driven? Really?


Because they're dramas. Especially "The Wire", which is listed as a "drama". Gee, I wonder why it's so focused on the plot and has relatively little action! "24", however, is an action/drama, which also explains why there's so many high-speed chases, gun fights, explosions and massive special effects.


Name 10 action shows in recent memory where they have episodes anywhere remotely like "Human".


I characterized American TV shows/action shows as "mindless action" when?


"The Sopranos", like "The Wire", is not an action show! It's a drama!


How about you actually read my posts before replying to them. It'll help you to not, you know, strawman me.

So we're aren't allowed to agree with you then, because you wouldn't get to shrilly inform us how wrong we are. You going so far off tangents I don't know where to begin. I never claimed that the Sopranos and The Wire were action shows, what I said was that scifi tv had yet to produce anything on par with them. Therefore when you get something like SGU that comes up and it borrows some of the styles used by those two shows, some scifi fans don't get it, as the genre they're a fan of is in many way's immature compared to the rest of tv.

As for trying to find 10 action show episodes, well I think I'd struggle to find 10 pure action show s on American tv. There is plenty of action on American tv, but most shows use it as simply a part of their show, rather than simply being the focus. The Wire and the Sopranos aren't as you mention action shows, yet they both are happy to use action when they need to tell the story, and in the case of the Wire this happens frequently. Further why would I want to compare Human to an episode of action tv, because SGU isn't an action show, its drama.

There might have been some misunderstanding when I said earlier that action shouldn't become a dirty word and we shouldn't stick our noses up at it. By this I mean action in shows, however as a whole, purely action orientated shows suffer from not being underdeveloped and poor in most areas. Hence why it's hard to find pure action shows on American tv today, you can find a lot of shows with action in them, but it's not their only tool in the box as it were. SG1 as I noted in my big list of season 5 eps has quite a lot of action in it. t did not however, I think you'll agree, simply reley on this to drive the show.

[Commander Zelix]

Yes, SG-1 featured relatively "little" action when compared to your traditional American action shows.

My point is that the American populus has been so spoiled by years of action-intensive movies that both "Light" and "Human" begot hate-threads where people complained loudly about how they were bored to tears because "nothing happened". Oh, really? Nothing happened? Rush received more character development in "Human" alone than in the vast majority of the first half of the season put together, yet they contend "nothing happened" because what did happen was mostly character interaction, character self-reflection and dialogue-driven instead of action-driven.

People really need to widen their horizons.

The problem with episode like Life and Human is the lack of good Sci-fi plots. A better balance must be strike between plots and character developments. Obviously both goes in hand in hand. It's not one or the other. Personally, I don't have much emotional attachment to characters on TV. Don't get me wrong, I love O'Neill, Monk or whatever. But I like to see those great characters live through good sci-fi stories. The way they reacts to events is what defined them. But from time to time I guess it's ok to have episode like Human (heavy on character exposition). A change of pace if you will.

[FallenAngelII]

That is so stereotypical, "it's all Hollywood action movies fault." If that's the case then a lot of Asian cinema which you seem to trumpet isn't very good either, American action flims tend not to have half an hour long shootouts.

Seriously, do you even read my posts before replying to them?! I'm saying that American TV shows, particularly action oriented ones, generally feature more action and less plot than non-American TV shows.

Also, what part of "Asian cinema in general, not Hong Kong Action Movies in particular" was too Vietnamese cho mày?

And Stargate sg1 did have a lot of action, lets look at a season, say season 5.

Enemies, massive shoot outs with Replicators and Jaffa.

Geez, I wonder why. Maybe because they thought the show was ending and wanted to tie up all loose ends. Also, if you look at all 200+ Stargate episodes overall, you will see that the show was relatively more plot-driven than action-driven than other shows of the same genres.

So in total in season 5 you have about 5 eps with only a bit of action, that's less than 1/4 of the season, while the other 3/4's is jam packed full of firefights, punch-up's and spaceships.

Why are you so desperate to try to refute anything I say?

So we're aren't allowed to agree with you then, because you wouldn't get to shrilly inform us how wrong we are.

Wait, what? That doesn't even make sense.

You going so far off tangents I don't know where to begin. I never claimed that the Sopranos and The Wire were action shows, what I said was that scifi tv had yet to produce anything on par with them.

You randomly brought them up in the middle of a rant about American action shows that aren't as focused on action as your run-of-the-mill American action show without any preface about how you're not just making a statement.

So I misread it. So sue me.

As for trying to find 10 action show episodes

I didn't say episodes. I said shows. You claim that American action shows are now "not like the 80's" and very plot-driven as opposed to mostly action-driven. Well, if it's so common, you should be able to name 10 shows.

Well I think I'd struggle to find 10 pure action show s on American tv.

Recent memory =/= At this writing moment.

Really, you can't come up with 10 action shows aired in the last, oh, decade?

There is plenty of action on American tv, but most shows use it as simply a part of their show, rather than simply being the focus.

Shows are action shows when they're officially touted as action shows.

Further why would I want to compare Human to an episode of action tv, because SGU isn't an action show, its drama.

I never said for you to compare anything. I said for you to name 10 action shows that have done episodes similar to "Human", as in plot-driven episodes that are mostly if not entirely devoid of action.

This entire argument stemmed from this:
Me: People hate episodes like "Human" because they've been spoiled rotten by (mostly) American action shows/movies that have lots of fast-paced action, thus they feel bored when they have to "endure" an episode of mostly plot-driven narrative.
You: American action shows/movies are much less action-oriented nowadays and much more plot-driven! Lots of plot!
Me: Well, then name some shows that have done episodes even remotely like "Human".

There might have been some misunderstanding when I said earlier that action shouldn't become a dirty word and we shouldn't stick our noses up at it.

I never did that. Just because you feel like ascribing various ludicrous actions to your "opponents" so that you can look down on them doesn't mean anything I've written in this thread is even close to doing that. When did I treat action as a genre like something dirty? Or even the word? When did I ever say anything denigrating about action as a genre?

By this I mean action in shows, however as a whole, purely action orientated shows suffer from not being underdeveloped and poor in most areas.

I have never made the claim that X and Y shows are undeveloped in any way. I merely stated that American TV shows, particularly action shows, have, in my estimation, too great a focus on action, thus the American TV viewing audience is used to narratives that are often more action-driven than plot-driven, thus they dislike episodes like "Light" and "Human".

The problem with episode like Life and Human is the lack of good Sci-fi plots.

The PTB have stated from the onset that SGU is an Sci-Fi/Drama that is much more focused on character-driven narratives than its predecessors. Just because it's a Sci-Fi shows doesn't mean every single episode has to be about, you know, Sci-Fi.

There were plenty of powerful SG-1 and SGA episodes that had almost nothing to do with Sci-Fi, too. Did you hate them as well?

[s09119]

Yes, SG-1 featured relatively "little" action when compared to your traditional American action shows.

My point is that the American populus has been so spoiled by years of action-intensive movies that both "Light" and "Human" begot hate-threads where people complained loudly about how they were bored to tears because "nothing happened". Oh, really? Nothing happened? Rush received more character development in "Human" alone than in the vast majority of the first half of the season put together, yet they contend "nothing happened" because what did happen was mostly character interaction, character self-reflection and dialogue-driven instead of action-driven.

People really need to widen their horizons.

You're way overgeneralizing, you know.

[SG7]

The PTB have stated from the onset that SGU is an Sci-Fi/Drama that is much more focused on character-driven narratives than its predecessors. Just because it's a Sci-Fi shows doesn't mean every single episode has to be about, you know, Sci-Fi.

There were plenty of powerful SG-1 and SGA episodes that had almost nothing to do with Sci-Fi, too. Did you hate them as well?

The episode "Lockdown" from SGA was a fine example where there was very little to do with the Sci-Fi aspect of the show. And was more of a character development show. One of my favorites IMHO. I learned more about Ronan in that episode then I think I did during the rest of the entire series. Of course to have a ton of episodes like that may not necessarily work for a particular show, but having the odd one or two in each season for instance can be good for the viewer. So that the viewer does get the back story of a character that they otherwise may not get given the time for.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Me: People hate episodes like "Human" because they've been spoiled rotten by (mostly) American action shows/movies that have lots of fast-paced action, thus they feel bored when they have to "endure" an episode of mostly plot-driven narrative.
You: American action shows/movies are much less action-oriented nowadays and much more plot-driven! Lots of plot!
Me: Well, then name some shows that have done episodes even remotely like "Human".

Is it possible to have a polite conversation with you? Because I happened to agree with you about your basic point and only disagreed with you on a couple of things and you've pretty much been rude and obnoxious ever since, including attacking me for agreeing with you and reiterating a point you made. The only thing I disagreed with you in your original post was the rather stereotypical argument that it's American tv and films that's dumbing down audiences. Perhaps you'd like to blame videogames as well, if we're going to follow the cliche?

In my estimation a lot of the complaints about eps like Human come from scifi fans who are unused to the developments in tv that have occurred outside the genre, Human might be fairly unique for a scifi show, it is not unique amongst other shows in other genres which have been creating episodes like Human long before SGU premiered.

As for your post here, I suggest you read some of your own advice and reread my posts. I suggest that action orientated shows as a whole is a dying genre. There are plenty of shows with action in them, but as a whole you can't create a successful show driven purely by action. Shows like the Unit and Sons Of Anarchy have plenty of action in them, but they are undeniably drama's, interested in their characters and their interactions, much more than then next bit of shooting. Try and create a show with action as the driving force and you end up with the A Team, and that lost its appeal and got cancelled by the end of the 80's.

[FallenAngelII]

Is it possible to have a polite conversation with you? Because I happened to agree with you about your basic point and only disagreed with you on a couple of things and you've pretty much been rude and obnoxious ever since, including attacking me for agreeing with you and reiterating a point you made.

No, I have never been rude or obnoxious towards you for agreeing with me. I've been rude and obnoxious to you when you've repeatedly miscontrued/misread/misinterpreted my posts, even after I've had to clarify them to you!

The only thing I disagreed with you in your original post was the rather stereotypical argument that it's American tv and films that's dumbing down audiences.

I never said this! My Lady Gaga, every single reply you come up with yet another outlandish misinterpretation of what I've previously said!

Audiences used to high-speed action shows and which do not appreciate episodes like "Human" =/= Dumbed-down/Dumb audiences.

Funny, I noticed how you've magically dropped the whole schtick about Hong Kong Action movies and American vs. Asian cinema in terms of action. Are you admitting to continually grossly misinterpreting my posts (thus, my outrage was justified), only you're not gracious enough to openly admit to it because that would mean having to admit I was right, or are you going to claim forgetfulness? If it's the latter, then please keep the argument going. I can't wait to see your next gross misinterpration.

If you stop misinterpreting my posts at every single turn, I will stop being condescending to you.

Perhaps you'd like to blame videogames as well, if we're going to follow the cliche?

Perhaps you could start actually reading what I write before replying to my posts. While we're on the subject, I happen to be a Competitive videogame player specializing in Fighting Games.

In my estimation a lot of the complaints about eps like Human come from scifi fans who are unused to the developments in tv that have occurred outside the genre, Human might be fairly unique for a scifi show, it is not unique amongst other shows in other genres which have been creating episodes like Human long before SGU premiered.

... this is exactly what I've been saying all along. Only you somehow misinterpeted it as me criticizing American cinema or Americans. What's next, I hate puppies and think they've been de-cutified by American girl scout cookies? Because that's the way it's going judging by how your misinterpretations of my words keep reaching for new heights in regards to outlandishness.

As for your post here, I suggest you read some of your own advice and reread my posts. I suggest that action orientated shows as a whole is a dying genre.

This has nothing to do with anything. Why does it matter? I said a few things, you said a few things, I asked you to prove them. Now you're strawmanning yourself.

There are plenty of shows with action in them, but as a whole you can't create a successful show driven purely by action. Shows like the Unit and Sons Of Anarchy have plenty of action in them, but they are undeniably drama's, interested in their characters and their interactions, much more than then next bit of shooting. Try and create a show with action as the driving force and you end up with the A Team, and that lost its appeal and got cancelled by the end of the 80's.

Let me ask you this: When did I ask you to name shows where "action as the driving force"? Never, that's when. I asked you to name 10 action shows (that had episodes similar to "Human"). This, of course, includes hybrids, such as "action-dramas" (and almost every single action show in recent history is an action drama).

I never asked you to name 10 shows that were entirely based on action.

[Lord Hurin]

Seriously, do you even read my posts before replying to them?! I'm saying that American TV shows, particularly action oriented ones, generally feature more action and less plot than non-American TV shows.

Whaaat?! Action shows have action in them? For shaaame! Next thing I know, you'll be telling us that sitcoms are supposed to be funny...

Seriously though, what do you consider an "action show"? 24? Lost? CSI? I admit that I don't watch a ton of TV, but I can't even think of 10 straight-up action shows on TV now.

[FallenAngelII]

Seriously though, what do you consider an "action show"? 24? Lost? CSI? I admit that I don't watch a ton of TV, but I can't even think of 10 straight-up action shows on TV now.

Any show that is officially labeled as an action show. "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", "Angel", "24", "The Unit", all 4 of those are officially labeled by the show creators as action shows.

[Lord Hurin]

Any show that is officially labeled as an action show. "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", "Angel", "24", "The Unit", all 4 of those are officially labeled by the show creators as action shows.

Well, having seen all of them I can say that there were most definitely character building moments in them. Perhaps not entire episodes like "Human" but certainly they weren't action scenes strung together by loose threads of badly written plot.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

No, I have never been rude or obnoxious towards you for agreeing with me. I've been rude and obnoxious to you when you've repeatedly miscontrued/misread/misinterpreted my posts, even after I've had to clarify them to you!

Have you ever considered you might get a better response from people, and people might not misconstrue or misinterpret what you say if you were actually polite to people. It helps debates, but if you really want 10 action drama shows that have had eps like Human focusing on drama, acting and character interaction then fine, The Unit, Sons Of Anarchy, The Shield, Justified, Miami Vice, Life on Mars, Ashes to Ashes, The Kill Point, Spooks, Burn Notice, BSG, Generation Kill and hell it's got enough action in it to qualify, the Wire. Threw in a couple of British shows for the hell of it, but you get yourself 10 American shows that could do eps like Human happily.

[EllieVee]

The problem with episode like Life and Human is the lack of good Sci-fi plots. A better balance must be strike between plots and character developments. Obviously both goes in hand in hand. It's not one or the other. Personally, I don't have much emotional attachment to characters on TV. Don't get me wrong, I love O'Neill, Monk or whatever. But I like to see those great characters live through good sci-fi stories. The way they reacts to events is what defined them. But from time to time I guess it's ok to have episode like Human (heavy on character exposition). A change of pace if you will.

Human was heavily sci-fi.

Have you ever considered you might get a better response from people, and people might not misconstrue or misinterpret what you say if you were actually polite to people. It helps debates, but if you really want 10 action drama shows that have had eps like Human focusing on drama, acting and character interaction then fine, The Unit, Sons Of Anarchy, The Shield, Justified, Miami Vice, Life on Mars, Ashes to Ashes, The Kill Point, Spooks, Burn Notice, BSG, Generation Kill and hell it's got enough action in it to qualify, the Wire. Threw in a couple of British shows for the hell of it, but you get yourself 10 American shows that could do eps like Human happily.

FAII and M6, can I ask if you liked Human? I got the impression that both of you did.