Not Faith

[Xarn]

but those aren't things that I've just made up myself and chosen to have faith in, rather those are attributes God has revealed and promises He has made. My faith isn't in something I've merely assumed should be the way I want it, as Caine's faith was. I just trust that God is able to get his point across correctly and that He is as He says He is and will stay that way.

I wont reply to the second part, because, **** it, by now I think every single person who has been using internet (or hell, is just alive and likes debate) has heard more or less every single argument for/against god and had a chance to evaluate those.

But, I would like to to know where is the difference between faith systems made around people who had "revelations" and wrote it down to make a holy book, and faith systems created by people who "just decided" that they will believe something (extremely advanced aliens saving their sorry asses for all I care), respectively what would be the difference if Caine said he had revelation (offscreen ofcourse, so we would have to speculate)



[This should go into another topic but]
Also, why do people aboard the ship think that creating sun makes whoever made them, the most advanced aliens ever?

I mean we had:
aliens creating black hole from a planet
aliens igniting gas giant
aliens with highly efficient time dilatation (and even friggin time travel, time flow reversal)
aliens with universe busting tech
aliens for whom harnessing energy levels of supernova or two was easy

etc etc etc (We never had aliens with inteligent tactics, but hey, that would mean the writers would actually have to think for a second...)
Compared to these, the sun+single planet is quite easy, just question of logistics.

[Eternal Density]

... by now I think every single person who has been using internet (or hell, is just alive and likes debate) has heard more or less every single argument for/against god and had a chance to evaluate those.

I wouldn't count on it.

But, I would like to to know where is the difference between faith systems made around people who had "revelations" and wrote it down to make a holy book, and faith systems created by people who "just decided" that they will believe something (extremely advanced aliens saving their sorry asses for all I care), respectively what would be the difference if Caine said he had revelation (offscreen ofcourse, so we would have to speculate)

There is a big difference. In the case we saw in the show, Caine is speaking from blind speculation. People have no reason to believe him beyond wanting what he wants. If Caine said he had some sort of revelation (e.g. "The aliens spoke into my mind") then the others would have to decide whether or not to have faith that Caine was correct and truthful (and that the message he received was trustworthy). Even if Caine had a very good track record of being 100% truthful and sane (and if there were trusted people present who could confirm that), it's still a leap to believe that the aliens aren't lying to us for some reason. We have no precedent or context to judge their intentions against.
If however, the message also told Caine where to find fresh water and the best food and how to access an underground bunker or hidden cave to serve as a winter shelter, that would serve both to verify his claim and provide some proof that the aliens are benevolent. In that case, faith that they will really come to send us home is a lot more reasonable.

By the same token, if someone came up to me and said "God exists and will raise people from the dead", that alone would prove nothing and it would be silly for me to put any faith in it.



[This should go into another topic but]
Also, why do people aboard the ship think that creating sun makes whoever made them, the most advanced aliens ever?

I mean we had:
aliens creating black hole from a planet
aliens igniting gas giant
aliens with highly efficient time dilatation (and even friggin time travel, time flow reversal)
aliens with universe busting tech
aliens for whom harnessing energy levels of supernova or two was easy

etc etc etc (We never had aliens with inteligent tactics, but hey, that would mean the writers would actually have to think for a second...)
Compared to these, the sun+single planet is quite easy, just question of logistics.[/QUOTE]

[EllieVee]

We may be venturing into dangerous territory here where people get offended so I'll start with the generic disclaimer of 'no offense intended'.

I'm not a religious person. The one thing I like about religion is choral music. So, that said, I think there seems to be a fine line between what one person describes as having faith and what another sees. And having read a few things over the past days bout what faith is, it's in the eye of the beholder. I can't see much difference between having faith in god existing and what Caine describes on the planet.

[aretood2]

We may be venturing into dangerous territory here where people get offended so I'll start with the generic disclaimer of 'no offense intended'.

I'm not a religious person. The one thing I like about religion is choral music. So, that said, I think there seems to be a fine line between what one person describes as having faith and what another sees. And having read a few things over the past days bout what faith is, it's in the eye of the beholder. I can't see much difference between having faith in god existing and what Caine describes on the planet.

The difference is based on what one believes per say. For example, take those who say they believe in God, yet they murder and so on. Their belief is purely traditional with no substance at all.

Caine's faith had no substance, it was devoid of an understanding between himself and what ever was the object of said faith. It was wishful thinking. The difference between faith and wishful thinking is that faith is based on a set of parameters determined by a evolution of sociocultural events that lead to a belief system.

Take Islam for example, it was a slow progression of Christian influence in Arabia that led to Muhhamed's preachings. Those preachings instilled a set parameter for a faith.

Or Humanism, it was the developments of the Enlightenment age that led people to have faith in Humankind's ability to change one's life, to better one's self.

and so on, these faiths have substance to them. What exactly brought Caine's Faith? Was it a progressive cultural movement? Or was it wishful thinking after being in a profoundly troubling situation?

Scott still believes in God, yet he didn't fall for Caine's explanation. He stayed for TJ and Chloe and to help the others that would stay. Or rather he wanted to stay for those reasons.

The faith Caine showed was one without substance at all. Not to mentioned he seemed a little arrogant for claiming to know what is meant to happen. How can you know that? I'm as Religious as the next church goer, and even I have to agree that Atheist (Allegedly) Carrot top was right. We have to live with what we are given.

[EllieVee]

And if you're given a paradisey planet with a mysterious obelisk, that might be enough for some people. You don't have to have 2000 years of history (though Caine actually did have that as a reference point).

[LiquidBlue]

I am impressed by the posts to this thread. Certainly we can recognize that this is a topic which could very easily digress into flames and misunderstandings.

I think that aretood2 brought up a very interesting point, and I appreciate his post. I think it addresses my initial dissatisfaction. There has been some posts that suggest that fantasy and faith are the same, and it is my feeling that this episode presented faith that way as well.

I have come to reflect more on this episode. It would have been much more interesting to me if this episode had be setup previously. Say, for example, Caine had in a previous episode expressed his confidence that there was a higher power that was aware of them and would provide for them. Thus when this planet showed up it would be a confirmation of his belief while still leaving legitimate and ample room open for the doubting or agnostic viewpoint as well.

[aretood2]

And if you're given a paradisey planet with a mysterious obelisk, that might be enough for some people. You don't have to have 2000 years of history (though Caine actually did have that as a reference point).

If you are referring to Christianity...add some 3,000 years to that.

While it was an influencing factor, I am not convinced that he truly felt some form of relationship with that world. Something in the way he talked, it sounded.

[Eternal Density]

We may be venturing into dangerous territory here where people get offended so I'll start with the generic disclaimer of 'no offense intended'.
...
The one thing I like about religion is choral music.

You like choral music? Now you're really pushing the envelope. I shall have to distance myself from this thread.

The faith Caine showed was one without substance at all.

This!