Young is the good guy. Why the majority think different?

[JustAnotherVoice]

I have, in previous posts, acknowledged Young's reasoning for the dubious actions Young undertakes. The question I was answering was why some don't see Young as a good guy. He may have good reasons for doing what he does, but at the end of the day, resorting to vigilante justice and underhanded schemes to exact revenge (however Telford or Rush might deserve it) is not the way an honorable leader should behave. He must lead by example if he is to be trusted by his crew. There were perfectly open and honest ways to go about addressing Rush's crimes and Telford's dishonourable behavior. As I mentioned, Young could have used the open court system he helped establish in "Justice" to deal with Rush. And he could have made the information about Telford going after his wife available in a formal complaint. Telford may then be reprimanded for behavior unbecomming of an officer.

At the end of the day, the argument in my mind is not about what's justified as much as it is about Young's leadership. If he's going to get everyone to work together, he must not undermine his position. He must take the high road, even (especially) if his adversaries do not. Rush is not trusted by anyone but Chloe; few have forgotten that he is the reason everyone is stranded on Destiny. However, no matter what punishment he may deserve for that, he is essential to the ship's survival. It would be emotionally gratifying to see him get what's coming to him, sure. A competent commander must conduct any attempt to answer the injustices Rush has perpetrated in a way that doesn't cast doubt on his own moral clarity.

Fair or not.

Ok, I'll admit that I'm late to this party and I must have missed your earlier posts.

I hope the person you were answering has equally compelling reasons as to why they think Rush/Wray/whoever is "good". Young can only be as dark as the light that shines on him and all that jazz, right?

The core issue, for me, isn't right vs wrong, good or bad, or who holds the moral high ground. They all double talk; they all cast doubt on their moral centres. No one can claim moral superiority over the others on that ship. Command on Destiny is nothing more than a popularity contest, and I think Young, for all his failings, realises that. It has little to do with moral strength, justice or anything that falls on the good side of society's moral compass; instead, it centres on everything wrong because that is how the characters forced the situation: not a single individual, but only through a collective effort did they bring themselves to this point.

One man who will do anything to go home; one man who will do anything to stay there; one woman who will do anything for the captain's chair. The issue on command and the morality question on SGU shouldn't be "who's the brightest?" Instead, it should be "who's the least dark?" Given everything we've seen on screen, I'd still put my money on Young. Milk and honey to his friends; hellfire and brimstone to his enemies.

Expecting anyone on the show to come clean as a white knight may take a while.

Now that I think about it, one of the greatest injustices done to Young is comparing him to Jack, John or anyone else back in the Milky Way or Pegasus. People may as well compare Young's failings with all the successes of Picard or Janeway. When the situation is that much bleaker, of course the characters will seem to be that much more lacking.

[Daro]

Ok, I'll admit that I'm late to this party and I must have missed your earlier posts.

I hope the person you were answering has equally compelling reasons as to why they think Rush/Wray/whoever is "good". Young can only be as dark as the light that shines on him and all that jazz, right?

The core issue, for me, isn't right vs wrong, good or bad, or who holds the moral high ground. They all double talk; they all cast doubt on their moral centres. No one can claim moral superiority over the others on that ship. Command on Destiny is nothing more than a popularity contest, and I think Young, for all his failings, realises that. It has little to do with moral strength, justice or anything that falls on the good side of society's moral compass; instead, it centres on everything wrong because that is how the characters forced the situation: not a single individual, but only through a collective effort did they bring themselves to this point.

One man who will do anything to go home; one man who will do anything to stay there; one woman who will do anything for the captain's chair. The issue on command and the morality question on SGU shouldn't be "who's the brightest?" Instead, it should be "who's the least dark?" Given everything we've seen on screen, I'd still put my money on Young. Milk and honey to his friends; hellfire and brimstone to his enemies.

Expecting anyone on the show to come clean as a white knight may take a while.

Now that I think about it, one of the greatest injustices done to Young is comparing him to Jack, John or anyone else back in the Milky Way or Pegasus. People may as well compare Young's failings with all the successes of Picard or Janeway. When the situation is that much bleaker, of course the characters will seem to be that much more lacking.

I agree that comparing Young to previous commanders is unfair. They were there of their own free will and he most certainly is not. Rush is the only one who is, and he's got other demons gnawing at him that make his reasons for being dark just as valid as anyone else's. I can't say I agree that Young is least dark so far; Wray is, to me. She has not acted especially badly, though her motives are questionable. She seems to always hold up the rights of the individuals on that ship, even when it might not be the best thing for her personally. We just don't trust her because of her IOA connections.

For me, the ultimate goal they all have to keep in mind is survival, and getting the people who don't want to be there home. I also want to see Rush succeed in his own mission to stay there. I don't particularly wish evil on any of them, I can understand and sympathize with all of them. The question of who should command is fairly valid, but at the end of the day, letting any of their personal problems throw the fate of the crew into jeapordy is downright wrong. Again, so far, Wray seems to be the least guilty of taking risks with other peoples' lives.

[JustAnotherVoice]

I can't say I agree that Young is least dark so far; Wray is, to me. She has not acted especially badly, though her motives are questionable. She seems to always hold up the rights of the individuals on that ship, even when it might not be the best thing for her personally. We just don't trust her because of her IOA connections.

For me, the ultimate goal they all have to keep in mind is survival, and getting the people who don't want to be there home. I also want to see Rush succeed in his own mission to stay there. I don't particularly wish evil on any of them, I can understand and sympathize with all of them. The question of who should command is fairly valid, but at the end of the day, letting any of their personal problems throw the fate of the crew into jeapordy is downright wrong. Again, so far, Wray seems to be the least guilty of taking risks with other peoples' lives.

Fair enough, but for me, her questionable motives are enough to colour her darker than Young, simply because we don't know what they are. With Young and Rush, they're pretty straight forward, even if we don't like their methods (the authoritarian vs the chess master). I have to wonder if Wray would have tried anything had her superior not explicity told her to try, which is what makes her so dangerous. She is willing to gamble against Young's experience and Rush's intellect, but hasn't shown us anything that would indicate she has anything close to a plan or direction outside of McCarthyism and fear mongering.

She's the Bones of the power trio, in that she has a fraction of the screentime compared to Young (Kirk) or Rush (Spock). Still, calling her the Bones of the trio an unfair comparison - to date, she has had neither the opportunity (in all 5 mins of her official command) nor expertise (can she even read ancient?) written into her character to be able to directly put anyone's life at risk. Hell, until her coup attempt, she was little more than set dressing with familiar but not-quite-marquee value to TV land. But the sheer audacity of the half baked coup makes her, quite possibly, the darkest character of the three. Her willingness to risk total dissolution of their already tenuous social cohesion potentially risked more than Young or Rush (since stranding everyone on Destiny, that is). Fanning the flames of paranoia and mistrust, I would find it a bit "out there" if any of the civilians would trust the military again. If she truly believed it was a battle worth fighting for, then more power to her, but she didn't have an escape or contingency plan. I'm willing to bet that both Young and Rush would have an alternate scheme in motion, or (for Rush, if he wasn't against the clock), would have predicted all the possible outcomes.

If she were a character on either of the other shows in the franchise, she would be a shining beacon for moral standards, but this is Universe. Her moral absolutism is a double edged sword, and in "clean" scenarios like the ones in the Milky Way, or even the "good natured bumbling" in Pegasus, it wouldn't matter. She would probably have been seen as a female version of Woolsey - deep down, a good person with strong moral values acting under questionable orders. But for me, in Universe, she's the equivalent of a crazy woman on a soapbox, preaching about how much better things will be when the alien overlords come and reclaim their pets.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

...
Now that I think about it, one of the greatest injustices done to Young is comparing him to Jack, John or anyone else back in the Milky Way or Pegasus. People may as well compare Young's failings with all the successes of Picard or Janeway. When the situation is that much bleaker, of course the characters will seem to be that much more lacking.

I agree, I think that's a huge injustice. Not only in that the situation is bleaker and that they didn't choose to be on this mission, but also for the fact that there is a different style of writing in SGU than in the previous shows. These people are supposed to have flaws; they were never intended to be perfect by any means. I keep trying to avoid making comparisons with the other two in the series but it keeps coming up anyway. There was a time when writing a "Jason Bourne" spy character was unthinkable, when writing a darker Bond character was unthinkable, and that's because at one point there was this notion of the hero in a certain light. Flaws were perhaps hinted at, but they were never truly explored, and they definitely didn't flavor the characters the way we are seeing in the modern writing of a 'hero' type character. Maybe we don't want 'heroes', at least not as heroes, anymore. I think that if the O'Neill or Sheppard roles were ever revised (oh boy, I can just hear the pitchfork wielding mob at the door!), we'd see more flaws, more humanity. Perhaps then it would be fair to make comparisons.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Duneknight,

this is all wrong. Young is the good guy here. he has flaws, but his intentions are good. Dr. Rush however, his intentions arent even clear, and civilians cant think for themselves clearly. Military has disciplined these soldiers well to be able to handle such circumstances and in very special circumstances such as this to restore order and protect civilians from themselves. i think DIVDED episode actually made Young and the military look good as they were the most reasonable.

So, Young had "good intentions" when he ambushed and asaulted Col. Telford? When he attacked and marooned Dr. Rush to die? I don't think Young is a bad man. I think he is deeply flawed and has serious anger issues particularly when under pressure. All those things make him more interesting as a character. However, he isn't the guy I'd pick to have in charge when the Poop hits the fan.

[jelgate]

Duneknight,



So, Young had "good intentions" when he ambushed and asaulted Col. Telford? When he attacked and marooned Dr. Rush to die? I don't think Young is a bad man. I think he is deeply flawed and has serious anger issues particularly when under pressure. All those things make him more interesting as a character. However, he isn't the guy I'd pick to have in charge when the Poop hits the fan.

Yes. Rush has shown he will go as far as possible to get what he wants

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

jelgate,

Yes. Rush has shown he will go as far as possible to get what he wants

So, why lie about what he did if his actions were justified?

[jelgate]

jelgate,



So, why lie about what he did if his actions were justified?

Because what is right is not always popular

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

Because what is right is not always popular

green!

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

jelgate,

Because what is right is not always popular

True enough, but, why lie to Gen. O'Neill about what happened?

[jelgate]

jelgate,



True enough, but, why lie to Gen. O'Neill about what happened?

Um he didn't

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Young didn't report to O'neill for a week or more? What would O'Neill have done if Young told him what he did and that he was lieing to everyone on Destiny about what he did?

[jelgate]

Young didn't report to O'neill for a week or more? What would O'Neill have done if Young told him what he did and that he was lieing to everyone on Destiny about what he did?

Who knows? Thier is no point in random speculation.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

jelgate,

Who knows? Thier is no point in random speculation.

Why not? Is it customary for American Military officers to summarily execute civilians who are under their charge? How does the military heirarchy commonly react to actions like those of Col. Young?

[spinny magee]

Ok firstly, assuming for some reason this were real life, he has my seal of approval for lasting this long, hes under a crap load of pressure, hes got Wray trying to crawl up his rectumn, to his left Scott and Chloe smooching whilst Eli watches on with an evil look, another corner TJ being pregnant and in front of him Greer torching civvies who found his stash of "plants".

Assaulting Rush: Frankly if someone had been peeving me off for that long, lieing, and trying to frame me i'd almost do the same
Telford: Well played is all I can say.