Young is the good guy. Why the majority think different?

[jelgate]

Sami,

Young's job demands he keep a level head. Rush's, not so much.

Double standards is never a wise judgment call. If we are going to say if Rush or Young is right then the same criteria should be used

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Young's position requires a much higher level of professionalism in his interpersonal relationships. He's in command of the ship and those on board. Rush's job is to investigate and understand the ship itself. As such the two different positions lend themselves to differing standards of accountability. Young's position demands higher scrutiny because he has much greater authority over those on board.

[Sami_]

Young does not have to demonstrate a "higher level of professionalism in his interpersonal relationships", he is a Colonel in the USAF, when he gives an order it has to be followed - even by civilians on a base under his command.

I imagine the common practice in the military nowadays is a court martial for disobeying an order from your superior, far less a Colonel in the Special Forces (which basically is what anyone attached to Stargate command is). However in the past anyone disobeying a direct order in a combat situation could easily have been shot like was a common occurence in WWI and WWII by pretty much all sides, its a different time and situation in SGU granted but the reasons for it make sense in my opinion and I imagine even today the closer they are to a life-threatening situation the more likely someone would get shot instead of escorted to a court martial.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Sami,

Yes, he does. What happens to commanders who regularly crap on their subordinates? This irrespective of the fact that most of the people on Destiny are not in the Military and do not, theoretically, have to obey Young as their superior officer.

[Deevil]

However in the past anyone disobeying a direct order in a combat situation could easily have been shot like was a common occurence in WWI and WWII by pretty much all sides

Well if you are going to bring up the past, it was also a semi-common occurrence for superior officers to be killed by their own subordinates too. So maybe they should just shoot Young given that it is also a life threatening situation (not that I am advocating killing Young).

[Sami_]

This irrespective of the fact that most of the people on Destiny are not in the Military and do not, theoretically, have to obey Young as their superior officer.

They do have to obey him, they were working on a military base on Icarus and that command structure is transferred to Destiny.

Just like a civilian on a base in Iraq would have to follow instructions given by the ranking officer of that base.

Well if you are going to bring up the past, it was also a semi-common occurrence for superior officers to be killed by their own subordinates too. So maybe they should just shoot Young given that it is also a life threatening situation (not that I am advocating killing Young).

Big difference, my example was within the law, your's isn't.

[Deevil]

Big difference, my example was within the law, your's isn't.

Sure it was (your example) to a point. While battlefield executions happened, they were not necessarily [always] legal; not necessarily the right course of action either. If Young were to engage in similar actions, while I think it'll be great for the show (and I really do), it wouldn't put him in the position of being a 'good man'.

Though he did do something similar, to a civilian no less. Yeah, not only not a good man - not a good CO either.

ETA That being said, I don't think Young is a bad person either. He's just a guy who does what he thinks is right, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Unfortunately he is well on his way down that road.

[Sami_]

Sure it was (your example that is), at the time. Doesn't necessarily make it the right course of action. If Young were to engage in similar actions, while I think it'll be great for the show (and I really do), it wouldn't put him in the position of being a 'good man'.

Though he did do something similar, to a civilian no less. Yeah, not only not a good man - not a good CO either.

Well I'm not saying it makes him good only that killing someone in a situation where dissension and defiance can lead to death for those around you can be morally justifiable.

Rushs' actions of framing Young would have effectively removed the only experienced military officer from command in a dangerous environment where that leadership could be the difference between life and death. In my opinion Rush presented a risk compareable to a soldier on the battlefield that cannot follow orders.

Its like in horror or zombie films where there is always some loose cannon in the group that is likely to get everyone killed by opening a locked door in a futile effort to save themselves or getting bitten by a zombie and not telling anyone until he's trying to eat their brains, those people just need to be killed before they become a problem.

(can't believe there isn't a trope for that, at least not one I can find )

[Deevil]

Well I'm not saying it makes him a good only that killing someone in a situation where dissension and defiance can lead to death for those around you can be morally justifiable.

Except the situation is that Young isn't IMO suited for command, his actions with Rush just highlighted that. Young's actions, his paranoia and inability to communicate with the civilians is also dangerous as is his inability to make some tough choices.

He acted out of anger with Rush, it had nothing to do with the safety of a crew so to suggest that as a reason for his actions doesn't work for me TBH.

While I now understand better where you are coming from (thanks), I just can't fall into that line.

Just to add - I am not suggesting that Rush acted well because he didn't, but this thread isn't about whether or not Rush is a good man. It's about Young.

[Sami_]

He has proven he is suited for command, he is a Colonel in the USAF so I think we should just put aside the idea that he can't command.

What Young doesn't do is pacify this pathetic self-determination crusade that the civilians seem to be on despite the fact that they have more important things to worry about. The bottom line is that those social issues are secondary to their survival and without the most qualified, experienced and high-ranking military officer in command the chances of survival are reduced dramatically - having someone else in command only raises the level of bueracracy in an environment where they can ill-afford to debate decisions.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Sami,

They do have to obey him, they were working on a military base on Icarus and that command structure is transferred to Destiny.

Just like a civilian on a base in Iraq would have to follow instructions given by the ranking officer of that base.

So Civilians are subject to the UCMJ and Court's Martial? They are part of the chain of command? I don't believe that is correct. Young is cut off from any real help from Earth. He can consult with his superiors but other than that no real help regarding personel and material are available. He may be able to rule by the barrel of a gun but doing so isn't smart and even he admits that.

[jelgate]

Sami,



So Civilians are subject to the UCMJ and Court's Martial? They are part of the chain of command? I don't believe that is correct. Young is cut off from any real help from Earth. He can consult with his superiors but other than that no real help regarding personel and material are available. He may be able to rule by the barrel of a gun but doing so isn't smart and even he admits that.

They are under the military chain of command. It won't lead to a court martial but failure to follow the military officer's does result in legal action for the civillians..

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

jelgate,

They are under the military chain of command. It won't lead to a court martial but failure to follow the military officer's does result in legal action for the civillians..

Given their circumstances what good does the "threat of legal action" do? They're "several billion light years from home" with no good prospects for getting home. Earth has absolutely no way of affecting anything on that ship directly. Why does the chain of command back home matter in the slightest?

[Deevil]

He has proven he is suited for command, he is a Colonel in the USAF so I think we should just put aside the idea that he can't command.

Makepeace was a Colonel too (in SG1) and he proved that not only was he not suited for command but that he was a traitor to his own country/world. Not to mention there are different types of command. You would not put someone in the Transport corps in charge of a Infantry corps. Young is clearly better suited (although not completely) for a desk job, not for the active position he has found himself in. So no, I can't put the idea asside that he is not suited for command.

The bottom line is that those social issues are secondary to their survival and without the most qualified, experienced and high-ranking military officer in command the chances of survival are reduced dramatically - having someone else in command only raises the level of bueracracy in an environment where they can ill-afford to debate decisions.

Actually those social issues are very important to a productive and safe environment. You ignore those issues, you are not a good leader. A leader has to do far more then bark and order and demand they are followed, something that Young doesn't seem to understand.

Having someone else in command means that a) Young doesn't have to deal with something he is ill equiped to do and, b) No one else has to put up with his dangerous, violent and inconsistent command. As for debating decisions being ill-afforded, having a emotionally unstable man making said decisions is more dangerous then a debate.

[Sami_]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, anyone reaching the rank of Colonel has proven they have a good grasp of command in my opinion, its hardly a common rank in any military and is only achieved by exceptional officers.

Could anyone have dealt with the situation in Faith better than Young?

Rush wanted to round them up at gunpoint and force them back to the ship, Wray wanted to let them stay and split the crew - weakening both groups, all the characters on the planet showed no concern for the people they left on the ship and what losing their skills would mean to them. Young was the only person thinking rationally and resolved the situation without dividing the crew or resorting to force.