Young is the good guy. Why the majority think different?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

jelgate,

Two lives vs the lives of everyone on Destiny. Not much of a choice.

Desitiny is about to jump away. Young knows that. It's possible he's desperate to keep everyone else from knowing what happened to Rush. I'm not saying that is his motivation. I'm saying it may be part of his motivation.

[jelgate]

jelgate,



Desitiny is about to jump away. Young knows that. It's possible he's desperate to keep everyone else from knowing what happened to Rush. I'm not saying that is his motivation. I'm saying it may be part of his motivation.

Yep. Lets have the aliens escape so they can gather more troops. Thats a wise move

I never bought the theory that Young was shooting to cover up Rush. That makes breaking Rush out of the water tank no sense

[Daro]

Jelgate, I'd agree with you, except as others have pointed out, Young's actions are ambiguous at best. I think Young acted heroically to save Rush's life, then had second thoughts. You see his expression change when Rush says "You want to help me?" Like Young was thinking "Um, do I?"

Besides, he says "I don't have a choice" when he is telling Eli to fire on the ship. That indicates to me that he's trying to eliminate Rush, despite the risk of killing himself and everyone aboard Destiny, despite the fact that the aliens are retreating. It may be that he thought leaving Rush in the hands of the aliens was a huge risk itself. But I think it's at least very possible he was also thinking of the reprecussions he'd face if Rush returned.

[jelgate]

Besides, he says "I don't have a choice" when he is telling Eli to fire on the ship. That indicates to me that he's trying to eliminate Rush, despite the risk of killing himself and everyone aboard Destiny, despite the fact that the aliens are retreating. It may be that he thought leaving Rush in the hands of the aliens was a huge risk itself. But I think it's at least very possible he was also thinking of the reprecussions he'd face if Rush returned.

I see "I don't have a choice" more in terms of the threat the aliens calling reinforcements. If he was worried about Rush returning to the Destiny then he would never have freed him from the water tank

[Daro]

I see "I don't have a choice" more in terms of the threat the aliens calling reinforcements. If he was worried about Rush returning to the Destiny then he would never have freed him from the water tank

Young had no indication at all that reinforcements would arrive, nor did he mention it as a reason. Blowing up the ship would be a risk that normally would outweigh firing on a retreating enemy in almost any circumstance. He wasn't behaving rationally. And I stick by my argument, that he rescued Rush and then let his darker side take over.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

I believe he was behaving perfectly rationally, just thinking militarily. When fired upon, fire back. When a enemy ship, or even possibly a scout ship, looks like it might disappear and bring more reinforcements, stop it by any means necessary. If he had really wanted Rush dead, he could have left him on the ship, or, instead of just breaking the tank, could have kept going and killed Rush right then and there. Somewhere in his head, he's probably thought about how much easier it would be if Rush were out of the picture but Rush being what he is, it's not too hard to understand that. Nobody's noble all the time

[jelgate]

Young had no indication at all that reinforcements would arrive, nor did he mention it as a reason. Blowing up the ship would be a risk that normally would outweigh firing on a retreating enemy in almost any circumstance. He wasn't behaving rationally. And I stick by my argument, that he rescued Rush and then let his darker side take over.

But he had no indication that they wouldn't call reinforcements. Its a very real possibility and from a strategtic POV its better to get rid of the enemy so they can't call in greater numbers to blow the Destiny to ashes. One is risky enough for the Destiny they would have been decimated if more had return in that scenario, Feel free to stick by your original arguement. I just don't buy it. It makes no sense to free Rush only to attempt to kill him later.

[Daro]

I never claimed that what Young did makes logical sense. What I'm saying is that he was imbalanced in "Space" and tried to negate his normal, heroic actions out of personal fear. Fear of losing face in front of his men, fear of what Rush would do if allowed to return to Destiny. Young does the right thing without thinking...and when he has a moment to think, he considers the negative consequences and does the wrong thing.
It's true that the aliens could have called in reinforcements, but Destiny probably would have jumped before any could arrive, and at that point Young had no reason to think that they were being tracked. Once in FTL, the problem would have been solved.

[Sussitout]

The guy in your Avi is the benchmark. Trouble is the Young character lacks Honour: Proven when he soundly thrashed Rush and left him for dead on that planet; Leadership charisma, simply because he is not big enough and he is no Jack O’Neil which leads me on to next thing it useful to have Wit: He is also sadly lacking in this. It would have been better if he was honest about leaving Rush on that planet so perhaps another one is Honesty. So he is lacking in Honour, Leadership skills, Wit and Honesty. He is Humble sometimes but does this equal him being a “good guy”. I think not.

[Daro]

The guy in your Avi is the benchmark. Trouble is the Young character lacks Honour: Proven when he soundly thrashed Rush and left him for dead on that planet; Leadership charisma, simply because he is not big enough and he is no Jack O’Neil which leads me on to next thing it useful to have Wit: He is also sadly lacking in this. It would have been better if he was honest about leaving Rush on that planet so perhaps another one is Honesty. So he is lacking in Honour, Leadership skills, Wit and Honesty. He is Humble sometimes but does this equal him being a “good guy”. I think not.

It seems to me that when Young has an audience, when he's in the eye of the public, he behaves like a hero. When he is not, when he thinks he can do something without being caught or proof left for others to pass judgment on, he does the wrong thing. Stranding Rush, beating up Telford, etc. I once heard that 'character' is behaving honorably even when there's no one there to see you. By that definition, I think Young is lacking in moral character.

[VJC]

Rape (Telford's body in "Earth")

It's not rape, watch this Kinosode: http://stargate.mgm.com/view/content/2104/index.html
(Should be number 23 "We Volunteer To Do This"
It's clear that everyone who uses the stones (from Earth) signs a permission form that allows people from the Destiny to do "Personal stuff". As the airman in Chloes body says, "that's kind of the point"

Phenom,
So we suppose. We don't know for certian. He could be paranoid in the clinical sense, which would be a problem regardless of his qualifications. That said I agree wholeheartedly with the gentleman who said these aren't "good guys" or "bad guys" they are protagonists and we will see where their relationship will go.

If he was clinically paranoid I doubt he'd have even been let into the military, let alone into the Stargate program.

[JustAnotherVoice]

It seems to me that when Young has an audience, when he's in the eye of the public, he behaves like a hero. When he is not, when he thinks he can do something without being caught or proof left for others to pass judgment on, he does the wrong thing. Stranding Rush, beating up Telford, etc. I once heard that 'character' is behaving honorably even when there's no one there to see you. By that definition, I think Young is lacking in moral character.

Young is in good company there, in the morally dubious; but you condemn him without looking at both sides. Yes: he stranded Rush; after Rush stranded 80+ on Destiny out of scientific curiosity (took unilateral action, against Young's orders) and tried to frame Young for murder (one man conspiracy) because Young would get in his way. Yes: he beat up Telford; who was undermining his marriage (insinuated that TJ and Young were knocking boots to Young's wife) and authority on Destiny because he was left behind. And didn't someone try to jump ship (when nobody was looking) when Rush's theatrics made things look bad?

So, if you're going to point fingers for being morally lacking, do it fairly.

Trouble is the Young character lacks Honour: Proven when he soundly thrashed Rush and left him for dead on that planet; Leadership charisma, simply because he is not big enough and he is no Jack O’Neil which leads me on to next thing it useful to have Wit: He is also sadly lacking in this. It would have been better if he was honest about leaving Rush on that planet so perhaps another one is Honesty. So he is lacking in Honour, Leadership skills, Wit and Honesty. He is Humble sometimes but does this equal him being a “good guy”. I think not.

1) Lacking in honour is a fair point, but to make it sound like Rush is totally innocent is naive. The man framed Young for murder, and the two have been locked in a power struggle since gating through, because Rush (more or less) took unilateral action to strand them on the Destiny. A LOT of pent up frustration there, given the content of Young's pre-Icarus scenes on Earth. One lapse in judgement does not take away from being willing to sacrifice himself (Air pt 2), giving up his seat on the shuttle (Darkness), doing everything he can to save Scott (Water), or personally leading a highly dangerous mission (Time).

2) So a guy lacks leadership skills because he isn't happy-go-lucky? I doubt Jack would be all too happy if he was stranded on the other side of the universe, suffering from the after effects of a concussion, malnourished, just about everyone with an ego gunning for the job he doesn't want, in addition to dealing with a failing marriage.

Jack could be Jack because he knew he'd have a warm and familiar bed to go home to, friends to whine to/chill out with, and most importantly, off hours; provided he survived the next mission. Young doesn't even have the luxury of knowing when his mission would end. I'm sure that frays some nerves. Besides, Jack's "personal issues" didn't really come up beyond the movie and a few mentions of his boy in season 1, and certainly it wasn't compounded by other things (suicidal O'Neil from the movie notwithstanding).

3) A guy needs wit to be a good leader? That would mean that Greer is the closest thing to a good guy on Destiny. Maybe Rush, but I can never tell if he's trying to be witty or if he's just really bitter and sarcastic because he can't have a decent conversation.

4) He has as much honesty as anyone else on or visiting Destiny. Everyone over 40 seems to have ulterior motives (i.e. take command for whatever reason). Company of thieves and all, right?

[JustAnotherVoice]

If he was clinically paranoid I doubt he'd have even been let into the military, let alone into the Stargate program.

Flying out of a stargate with the force of an exploding planet and wanging his head probably caused untold brain injury, especially given their limited medical tools. For all we know, his paranoia (and to some, lapses in judgement) could be a direct result from it.

If they really wanted Young to step down, this would have been the most compelling line to use.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

Flying out of a stargate with the force of an exploding planet and wanging his head probably caused untold brain injury, especially given their limited medical tools. For all we know, his paranoia (and to some, lapses in judgement) could be a direct result from it.

If they really wanted Young to step down, this would have been the most compelling line to use.

agreed on both posts
Rush had a meltdown due to lack of coffee and cigarettes (and maybe a few other issues). Young, for all we know, is facing the same type of withdrawal issues, along with an injury, weird stone behaviour, marital problems, backstabbing and being framed for murder. Maybe stranding Rush on the planet was his version of a meltdown and, to Young's credit, he isn't proud of that moment. Going on words alone (because there's so much more there) the two characters have stated that they'd move on for the sake of the crew.

[Daro]

Young is in good company there, in the morally dubious; but you condemn him without looking at both sides. Yes: he stranded Rush; after Rush stranded 80+ on Destiny out of scientific curiosity (took unilateral action, against Young's orders) and tried to frame Young for murder (one man conspiracy) because Young would get in his way. Yes: he beat up Telford; who was undermining his marriage (insinuated that TJ and Young were knocking boots to Young's wife) and authority on Destiny because he was left behind. And didn't someone try to jump ship (when nobody was looking) when Rush's theatrics made things look bad?

So, if you're going to point fingers for being morally lacking, do it fairly.



1) Lacking in honour is a fair point, but to make it sound like Rush is totally innocent is naive. The man framed Young for murder, and the two have been locked in a power struggle since gating through, because Rush (more or less) took unilateral action to strand them on the Destiny. A LOT of pent up frustration there, given the content of Young's pre-Icarus scenes on Earth. One lapse in judgement does not take away from being willing to sacrifice himself (Air pt 2), giving up his seat on the shuttle (Darkness), doing everything he can to save Scott (Water), or personally leading a highly dangerous mission (Time).

2) So a guy lacks leadership skills because he isn't happy-go-lucky? I doubt Jack would be all too happy if he was stranded on the other side of the universe, suffering from the after effects of a concussion, malnourished, just about everyone with an ego gunning for the job he doesn't want, in addition to dealing with a failing marriage.

Jack could be Jack because he knew he'd have a warm and familiar bed to go home to, friends to whine to/chill out with, and most importantly, off hours; provided he survived the next mission. Young doesn't even have the luxury of knowing when his mission would end. I'm sure that frays some nerves. Besides, Jack's "personal issues" didn't really come up beyond the movie and a few mentions of his boy in season 1, and certainly it wasn't compounded by other things (suicidal O'Neil from the movie notwithstanding).

3) A guy needs wit to be a good leader? That would mean that Greer is the closest thing to a good guy on Destiny. Maybe Rush, but I can never tell if he's trying to be witty or if he's just really bitter and sarcastic because he can't have a decent conversation.

4) He has as much honesty as anyone else on or visiting Destiny. Everyone over 40 seems to have ulterior motives (i.e. take command for whatever reason). Company of thieves and all, right?

I have, in previous posts, acknowledged Young's reasoning for the dubious actions Young undertakes. The question I was answering was why some don't see Young as a good guy. He may have good reasons for doing what he does, but at the end of the day, resorting to vigilante justice and underhanded schemes to exact revenge (however Telford or Rush might deserve it) is not the way an honorable leader should behave. He must lead by example if he is to be trusted by his crew. There were perfectly open and honest ways to go about addressing Rush's crimes and Telford's dishonourable behavior. As I mentioned, Young could have used the open court system he helped establish in "Justice" to deal with Rush. And he could have made the information about Telford going after his wife available in a formal complaint. Telford may then be reprimanded for behavior unbecomming of an officer.

At the end of the day, the argument in my mind is not about what's justified as much as it is about Young's leadership. If he's going to get everyone to work together, he must not undermine his position. He must take the high road, even (especially) if his adversaries do not. Rush is not trusted by anyone but Chloe; few have forgotten that he is the reason everyone is stranded on Destiny. However, no matter what punishment he may deserve for that, he is essential to the ship's survival. It would be emotionally gratifying to see him get what's coming to him, sure. A competent commander must conduct any attempt to answer the injustices Rush has perpetrated in a way that doesn't cast doubt on his own moral clarity.

Fair or not.