What if Wray had use non violent passive resistance against Col Young?

[Daro]

Non-violent protest would be refusal to take action.

They didn't do that. They took action.

They took control of the ship and threatened the other side with death by dehydration / starvation. They took a position of power, made demands and threatened death for non-compliance.

You keep saying this thing about Rush and Wray threatening death by dehydration/starvation. They absolutely did not do that. When Young says "Eli says we have control of the life support," Rush responds that "We have a greater volume of air, and the hydroponics lab producing oxygen." Young replies: "Not enough to matter."

That constitutes a threat, at which point Rush says the thing about food and water. Food and water was not denied to the military side, and there was no plan to do so mentioned by Rush or Wray. If air and heat had been cut off, isn't that more horrible than dying of starvation or dehydration? Even if all things were equal, Rush only pointed out that both sides had essentials that the other needed. Nothing more.

Non-violent does not mean inactive. It means that they did not resort to violence in any way.

I'm fine with the argument that the civilians were wrong, though I'll respectfully disagree. But to say they threatened to let the military die is a complete misrepresentation of what we saw in the show.

[Tuvok]

Non-violent protest would be refusal to take action.

They didn't do that. They took action.

They took control of the ship and threatened the other side with death by dehydration / starvation. They took a position of power, made demands and threatened death for non-compliance.

Basically they sealed off the military. Demanded their guns and threatened them with starvation\ dehydration. Then they got their butts handed to them by a full blown battlehorse Young and acted surprised when the Military did what they where trained to do. Fight and win. And rearrange dental work if James if any indication. Helpful hint when the Military pacifies a room, get down. The plan is to go in fast, and clear it. No hesitation , no negotiation to limit threats from hostiles. If you still standing after they tell you to get down, prepare to loose teeth.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

Basically they sealed off the military. Demanded their guns and threatened them with starvation\ dehydration. Then they got their butts handed to them by a full blown battlehorse Young and acted surprised when the Military did what they where trained to do. Fight and win. And rearrange dental work if James if any indication. Helpful hint when the Military pacifies a room, get down. The plan is to go in fast, and clear it. No hesitation , no negotiation to limit threats from hostiles. If you still standing after they tell you to get down, prepare to loose teeth.

I completely agree there. As TJ said, they declared war with that action and war is not something the civilians are adept at. I believe that if Rush/Wray had gone about it some other way, that Young et al would have backed that, as long as there was SOME sort of order that wouldn't result in them all getting killed. If Rush/Wray continue to try to essentially declare war on the military element, they shouldn't be surprised if they come up short.

[The Shrike]

The question wasn't "how imperfect is Young", it was the civilians, under Rush/Wray using passive resistance. Gandhi was mentioned I don't believe that Rush/Wray are wired to use passive resistance, so no

I'll admit, sometimes it backfires too, Gandhi, Jesus, and Martin Luther King didn't exactly die of natural causes.

[Shpinxinator]

I started out writing a very in depth response...then I asked my self "what's the point" and went off to watch Walking with Dinosaurs....all in all...a good day

[Lahela]

You keep saying this thing about Rush and Wray threatening death by dehydration/starvation. They absolutely did not do that. When Young says "Eli says we have control of the life support," Rush responds that "We have a greater volume of air, and the hydroponics lab producing oxygen." Young replies: "Not enough to matter."

That constitutes a threat, at which point Rush says the thing about food and water. Food and water was not denied to the military side, and there was no plan to do so mentioned by Rush or Wray. If air and heat had been cut off, isn't that more horrible than dying of starvation or dehydration? Even if all things were equal, Rush only pointed out that both sides had essentials that the other needed. Nothing more.

Non-violent does not mean inactive. It means that they did not resort to violence in any way.

I'm fine with the argument that the civilians were wrong, though I'll respectfully disagree. But to say they threatened to let the military die is a complete misrepresentation of what we saw in the show.

Apparently it's okay for the military to threaten to cut off life support, but not for the civilians to threaten to withhold food and water and then not withhold it.

[Cory Holmes]

Discussions like this are why episodes like Divided are so awesome. Both sides were right, both sides were wrong. Teams Wray and Rush (or should that be Wrush?) did things wrong, Team Young did things wrong, all are guilty of scheming, politicking, and conniving. All have the skills to contribute to the survival of the ship and crew, all are lacking areas the others excel at.

At no point did the PTBs take their usual preachy stance on The Goodie Two-Shoes Good Guys always being right, something they did way too often on Atlantis. This bodes well for the future and interesting forum discussions.

PS: Team Young FTW!

[pipi]

If Wray was hotter and not lez maybe she could seduce him. It's the oldest trick in the book. All (straight) men fall to beauty. Damn you hot gurls!

[Wayston]

it was not passive resistance, the plan was to lock out the military (AND innocent civilians not part of the coup mind you) and starve them into submission. the fact that the military side was able to keep control over life support was entirely accidental... the civilian side only provided what is described as a "limited amount of food and water" in return for eli. They didn't care about the rest of the civilians apparantly.

They did not use guns because their plan didn't really require them and they didn't have access to any guns anyway (except the one that was put down)

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

Discussions like this are why episodes like Divided are so awesome.
...
At no point did the PTBs take their usual preachy stance on The Goodie Two-Shoes Good Guys always being right
...

yep, there's nobody that's a moral authority, nobody;s intentions are that pure. It's one of the things I've been enjoying about this show; that 'the other', the enemy, is themselves, rather than projecting all negative qualities onto an alien race while retaining all "good" with the team.

it was not passive resistance, the plan was to lock out the military (AND innocent civilians not part of the coup mind you) and starve them into submission. the fact that the military side was able to keep control over life support was entirely accidental... the civilian side only provided what is described as a "limited amount of food and water" in return for eli. They didn't care about the rest of the civilians apparantly.

They did not use guns because their plan didn't really require them and they didn't have access to any guns anyway (except the one that was put down)

Rush/Wray had no idea that Young could find a way to get to their side. I think Rush/Wray severely underestimated Young and his abilities. So yes, I think it's possible that they intended to starve out the military, it just never got a chance to develop

[Daro]

You honestly think that Chloe would have let Rush starve Eli (well, ok, he'd be fine for a while) and Scott? No way. Even if Rush and Wray would do that, did you see how much influence Chloe has on Rush, holding him to his promise not to let anyone get hurt? Not even hurt by accident. No way she would ever consent to being on Rush and Wray's side if they denied food and water to the military. And neither would a lot of other people.

[beafly]

Then what was the point? If they weren't willing to kill them over it, they should have called a meeting, not a mutiny.

[Lahela]

Then what was the point? If they weren't willing to kill them over it, they should have called a meeting, not a mutiny.

I had the impression that Wray had tried to talk with Young on numerous occasions. He always brushed her off.

[jelgate]

I had the impression that Wray had tried to talk with Young on numerous occasions. He always brushed her off.

You know what happens to those who assume?

Because I see no canon evidence to find a common ground. Just two people bickering

[Replicator Todd]

I think a better question would be what if Wray had used violence?