Once you pick up a weapon...

[Gollumpus]

I feel sorry for everyone in this episode except for Young, Rush and Wray. Each and every other person has in some way or another been manipulated by these three "leaders". The crew was mostly getting along with each other and now they have become even more divided than they were at the start of the show.

That being said, I'm becoming a bit ticked at the on-going "stupidity" of these supposedly critical thinking scientists. Rush is manipulating them far too easily.

regards,
G.

[Col.Foley]

Nor is there anything civilized about leaving people without air. And they weren't keeping hostages, they just locked up the two military personnel for the duration of the standoff to prevent them from trying to sabotage their efforts. Besides, having the one medic on your side, willingly or not, is always a plus.

Again, they did what they had to do.

And yet they did not do that, they discussed doing it, but they did not actually cut off life support to the area. The Civilians illeligitimatly seized control, they took arms, they took hostages, and they were willing to cut off food and other supplies to the rest of the ship. This is hardly non violent, and it is quite scary that this is 'what they had to do'. There were several other options on the table especially since the military has not treated the population at large unfairly. Only Young messing up Rush, and Spencer roughing up Franklin. Where Young intervened in that circumstance. The fact of the matter is this was an illegal operation and they were lucky they weren't all shot. Though its not what I would have done, and I do not think it should have happened.

In regards to the OP, if they were not civilians anymore then what were they? They could not have been soldiers. That leaves Insurgents or terrorists.

[Col.Foley]

Thier is not an easy answer but you just switching the power to the other side and the military is going to be resistant in such scenario. Somehow (and this might sound idealist) thier needs some cooperation. Both were wrong

I do agree that there needs to be cooperation, though I do not agree that the Military was in the wrong.

[Astria]

Well, some of the civilians thought in 'Water' that that's exactly what the military was doing. I'm not saying the military are all bad people. But saying it's wrong for the civilians to hold food and water...I mean, what were they supposed to do? And again, the military had power over the heat and air, so there was a balance of resources there.
I think they were as civilized as one can be when instigating a coup. They did not at any point resort to violence. They gave food and water over to the 'enemy' within a short period of time after the ship was taken. No one was denied anything. Except, of course, Rush and Wray were denied free reign of the ship. And I'm pretty sure that is, at the end of the day, a good thing. So is any attempt to change the status quo. If some non-violent action wasn't taken soon, I'm sure the tension would have eventually erupted in deadly violence.

But that was the plan all along, to keep the water and food from the military, and only give it to them when they thought they earned it. The military was using the fact that they had control of the life support systems as strategic method. They didn't turn it off, and only mentioned it to show Rush that he wasn't in complete control. What were the civilians supposed to do? Well not stage a coup for one. They obviously didn't use logic in their thinking. Military = fighters. Coup = fight. Therefore, start a fight, the fighters will fight. There was no real reason for it other than Rush and Wray convincing them all that the military is bad and needed to be stopped and controlled.

[Daro]

Illegal action? They are on the other side of the universe. Billions of light years from anything resembling authority, with only the communication stones to connect them. While it may not have been the most productive of options, the whole goal of a coup is disrupting the 'law' and authority in the event that the population views the actions of those in power as unjust.
Britain called the uprising of colonial Americans illegal too, and it was. Not that this compares to that, except in the broadest of generalizations to make a point; a rebellion is good or bad depending on your perspective, and on who wins and gets to write the history books afterwards.
Also, Greer has been kicking folks around and making threats since day one. This isn't just a few individuals that got roughed up. It's the constant presence of people, with guns, giving orders. Someone has to, of course, but the military bungled their role so far by letting people like Greer and Spencer menace civilians publicly, constantly, and without any real reprecussions.
The military has to be answereable to someone, and I think that maybe we should count those that are aboard the same ship as such, since every other human being is several galaxies away.

[Col.Foley]

Illegal action? They are on the other side of the universe. Billions of light years from anything resembling authority, with only the communication stones to connect them. While it may not have been the most productive of options, the whole goal of a coup is disrupting the 'law' and authority in the event that the population views the actions of those in power as unjust.
Britain called the uprising of colonial Americans illegal too, and it was. Not that this compares to that, except in the broadest of generalizations to make a point; a rebellion is good or bad depending on your perspective, and on who wins and gets to write the history books afterwards.
Also, Greer has been kicking folks around and making threats since day one. This isn't just a few individuals that got roughed up. It's the constant presence of people, with guns, giving orders. Someone has to, of course, but the military bungled their role so far by letting people like Greer and Spencer menace civilians publicly, constantly, and without any real reprecussions.
The military has to be answereable to someone, and I think that maybe we should count those that are aboard the same ship as such, since every other human being is several galaxies away.

So its not illegal...but is illegal? That is how this is coming off as. But yes, you are right, it is an illegal action because General O'Neill and the legitimate authority of Earth...to the best of my knoweldge...put Young in charge. Rush's and Camille's justification for their little spat was there was no civillian ggovernment authority. Oh really? there is a legitimate governmental body, the United States government, and the Nations of the IOA, they are the legitimate governing authority...for the moment...behind this, and Young has his own superiors.

And Yes, you are right. The Military has fraked up, btut that does not justify a equally grandiose frak up by the 'Civilians'. The one thing that can be learned from this is there needs to be a clearer chain of command set up amongest the interests. Individuals have acted on their own to do...bad things. You will get no argument from me on that. But the official military action has never been too harsh. Young acted on his own, and covered it up, and was not acting in any official capacity. As was Greer and Spencer...especially Spencer. Though I do not really recall Greer getting too...uppity

[Daro]

But that was the plan all along, to keep the water and food from the military, and only give it to them when they thought they earned it. The military was using the fact that they had control of the life support systems as strategic method. They didn't turn it off, and only mentioned it to show Rush that he wasn't in complete control. What were the civilians supposed to do? Well not stage a coup for one. They obviously didn't use logic in their thinking. Military = fighters. Coup = fight. Therefore, start a fight, the fighters will fight. There was no real reason for it other than Rush and Wray convincing them all that the military is bad and needed to be stopped and controlled.

Eli pointed it out, yes, that military had the air. They didn't threaten Rush about it, and they didn't have to. Their private conversations showed that they didn't rule the option of doing so out, when Greer suggested freezing them out. Eli was horrified at the idea, didn't believe they'd do it, said so, and was answered with silence. An implied "If that's what the Colnel decides..."
I agree that the civilians didn't think their clever plan all the way through, but then again they weren't trying to win complete control of the ship forever. They said they wanted a compromise. Whether they were right in their concerns or wrong depends on your perspective, but as far as how the events panned out, they behaved in as civilized a fashion as one could expect a rebellion to. Rush and Wray may have taken charge of the rebellion, but that doesn't mean that they alone convinced everyone else on the ship to join them. The feelings of resentment were already there. Franklin complained early on (whined, is more like it, and without good cause.) After that, the military started to become what the civvies had started to expect. I'd be pretty upset too if I thought the commander of the ship abandoned the super-genius scientist who, regardless of how good or bad he is, is still a human being and also a valuable tool in the fight for survival. I would have a problem with anyone who thought he could just throw away a man's life without a trial. Would you want to be at the mercy of someone like that?

[Lahela]

But that was the plan all along, to keep the water and food from the military, and only give it to them when they thought they earned it. The military was using the fact that they had control of the life support systems as strategic method. They didn't turn it off, and only mentioned it to show Rush that he wasn't in complete control. What were the civilians supposed to do? Well not stage a coup for one. They obviously didn't use logic in their thinking. Military = fighters. Coup = fight. Therefore, start a fight, the fighters will fight. There was no real reason for it other than Rush and Wray convincing them all that the military is bad and needed to be stopped and controlled.

Why not? Would you not rebel if you were being ruled over by a dictatorship? If you had no say about any aspect of your existence? If the dictatorship controlled the air, food, water, your liberty, your contact with Earth...? I know I would. Young and his minions have no more right to rule that anyone else, and certainly not with an iron fist and the butt of a rifle - this was Wray's point. She tried numerous times to approach Young about these issues but was met with threats. Drawing a line in the sand was the only alternative left to her.

[Tabula Rasa]

Wray and Rush unleashed the dogs of War. TJ said as much to Chloe. Im disapointed that the Military didnt kill at least one civilian to emphasise their point - Destiny is a military dictatorship, not a democracy.

[Daro]

So its not illegal...but is illegal? That is how this is coming off as. But yes, you are right, it is an illegal action because General O'Neill and the legitimate authority of Earth...to the best of my knoweldge...put Young in charge. Rush's and Camille's justification for their little spat was there was no civillian ggovernment authority. Oh really? there is a legitimate governmental body, the United States government, and the Nations of the IOA, they are the legitimate governing authority...for the moment...behind this, and Young has his own superiors.

And Yes, you are right. The Military has fraked up, btut that does not justify a equally grandiose frak up by the 'Civilians'. The one thing that can be learned from this is there needs to be a clearer chain of command set up amongest the interests. Individuals have acted on their own to do...bad things. You will get no argument from me on that. But the official military action has never been too harsh. Young acted on his own, and covered it up, and was not acting in any official capacity. As was Greer and Spencer...especially Spencer. Though I do not really recall Greer getting too...uppity

The only connection they have with Earth is now iffy. And if you want to say that General O'Neil and the government are still in charge of Destiny and its mission, then riddle me this: Young already made it clear, after the IOA and the Air Force tried to replace him with Telford when Young refused to obey an order, that he was only taking the orders of his superior officers on Earth as little more than a polite suggestion. He's already broken off from the chain of command, and there's nothing that can be done about it yet. So...is he still the rightful commander, given that he thinks it's okay to disregard orders from his legitimate governement? If so, then don't those under the rule of this military dictator have a right, almost an obligation, to try and overthrow him?

As for 'not acting in an official capacity,' I think that's a bit of a misguided thought. When you are in the public eye, you're in the public eye. These guys weren't off-duty when they roughed people up, and they did it in such a way that everyone in this tiny population knows about it. They did it using the guns and training the military provided them with.
As for Greer's tendancy to misbehave, I'd point to the pilot episode. Disregarding the fact that he was already in detention for punching a superior officer, he pointed his gun at Rush several times. Once was when he thought Rush was about to blow up the ship, but even then, he didn't initially obey a command given to him by Lt. Scott to lower his weapon. After that, it was just the good ol' fashioned 'I have a gun and you don't' routine on the planet.

[Gollumpus]

Realistically, the only sensible way for the civilian pop (other than Rush or Wray) to "rebel" would be to do it passively. Down tools, do not co-operate with the military in any way. Gather food and supplies and withdraw interaction with anyone military (with the obvious exclusion of TJ for medical reasons). After a while the message would get across. Alternatively, keep Young buried in minor problems, all the while commenting that some sort of civilian leadership would be of great help in sorting stuff out.

[Astria]

Eli pointed it out, yes, that military had the air. They didn't threaten Rush about it, and they didn't have to. Their private conversations showed that they didn't rule the option of doing so out, when Greer suggested freezing them out. Eli was horrified at the idea, didn't believe they'd do it, said so, and was answered with silence. An implied "If that's what the Colnel decides..."
I agree that the civilians didn't think their clever plan all the way through, but then again they weren't trying to win complete control of the ship forever. They said they wanted a compromise. Whether they were right in their concerns or wrong depends on your perspective, but as far as how the events panned out, they behaved in as civilized a fashion as one could expect a rebellion to. Rush and Wray may have taken charge of the rebellion, but that doesn't mean that they alone convinced everyone else on the ship to join them. The feelings of resentment were already there. Franklin complained early on (whined, is more like it, and without good cause.) After that, the military started to become what the civvies had started to expect. I'd be pretty upset too if I thought the commander of the ship abandoned the super-genius scientist who, regardless of how good or bad he is, is still a human being and also a valuable tool in the fight for survival. I would have a problem with anyone who thought he could just throw away a man's life without a trial. Would you want to be at the mercy of someone like that?

But they didn't do it. And as bad as Young has acted towards Rush, he wouldn't kill a group of people without merit. Yes, if they didn't give them food or water, he would probably cut off the air. The civilians wanted their compromise. They wanted the military to give something up, but they themselves were gaining. That isn't compromise. They did not know about Young leaving Rush on the planet alive until either Rush or Wray told them. Young would only do that to them if they framed him for murder or did something equally as bad. The word civilized has no place in describing what the civilians on the ship are or what they did, as civilized is an either or description. But in the end no one is right in what has happened on the ship so far.

Fraklin is SGU's Kavanagh, great, just what they need.

[Daro]

Heh, you know, ever since he sat in that chair and lost consciousness, I don't think I've missed Franklin at all. Maybe he'll wake up changed by the whole brain-go-explodey thing.

I agree that Young wouldn't slaughter the civilians, and I agree that he wouldn't take a life on a whim. But he did attempt to kill Rush for all the wrong reasons, not because he was framed, and he at least has taken ownership of that mistake. But just because he's admitted fault doesn't mean that he still won't face reprecussions for his actions.
Wray and Rush confirmed what the civilians suspected was the truth already. Why they'd believe anything Rush says is a bit of a conundrum. The man only gets caught lying every episode. The only logical answer is that they believed what they wanted to, what served their goals.
Of course they wanted their compromise. That's how any dispute, military or political, works. They got it, but it was given to buy Young time to make his move. Nations bargain all the time, often leveraging the threat of sanctions or even military action against another nation that is not doing what they think it should be. Is it uncivilized if the US puts sanctions on a country that is ruled by a military dictator who abuses and oppresses his people?
I guess I would ask this: in light of the fact that Young has ignored the opinions of people like Wray and Rush, what would their rightful course of action be, in your eyes? The rest of the civilians had loudly voiced their own complaints. Young spied on them through Eli, but didn't address those concerns. A good leader provides good communication. What else were they going to do?

[Astria]

Why not? Would you not rebel if you were being ruled over by a dictatorship? If you had no say about any aspect of your existence? If the dictatorship controlled the air, food, water, your liberty, your contact with Earth...? I know I would. Young and his minions have no more right to rule that anyone else, and certainly not with an iron fist and the butt of a rifle - this was Wray's point. She tried numerous times to approach Young about these issues but was met with threats. Drawing a line in the sand was the only alternative left to her.

What does Wray know about leadership? Or Rush? Or any of the civilians? And all the coup would have done if it had succeeded was trade one dictatorship for another. One made up of people who have no idea how to lead. It was not trading for a democracy. The military had to take some control over the supplies. The civilians would not ration, which needs to be done, because they are not equipped to deal with a situation like this. The civilians never had the promise of food or water held over their heads. They weren't withheld food or water. Liberty? Of course they have no liberty and neither do the military personnel, they are stuck on a dangerous unknown ship hurling through space. The scientists in the Stargate world have been shown to leap without thinking, touching things that shouldn't be touch. But sure, give them free rein of the ship right away. They seem pretty free to move around as they please now. We never saw anyone on the ship preventing anyone from using the stones to contact earth. And Space doesn't count. The only person who threatened to withhold communication was the IOA member on earth a civilian.

[Cold Fuzz]

Wray and Rush unleashed the dogs of War. TJ said as much to Chloe. Im disapointed that the Military didnt kill at least one civilian to emphasise their point - Destiny is a military dictatorship, not a democracy.

I'm actually surprised about that myself. Mutineers, especially the ringleaders, aren't usually in the habit of coming out alive during a failed insurrection. In the past, the military would have lined Wray and Rush up to be shot. If that were the case, even Chloe could have faced serious consequences. General O'Neill was right from the beginning: Being on the Destiny is NOT a democracy.