Some of the Military Shocked me

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Misfits,

Is it really your opinion that a Military Commander should have the ability to summarily execute a civilian under their command without giving that civilian the benefit of a trial, counsel, or resort to some higher military authority before that commander carries out the execution of the civilian in question? You've said Young's authority doesn't come from being in command of everyone who is carrying firearms on Destiny so where do you get that he has the authority to kill someone under his command without trial, counsel, or resort to higher military authority?

If that is the case what limits, if any, would you place upon the authority of a field commander who was in communication with his command?

[Deevil]

If they trusted him, I would think people would have voiced their support for him being the Leader.

You can trust someone implicitly and know that they aren't suited for a position. Trust and ability and capability are often mutually exclusive.

You'll be surprised. Remember that the Mutineers demands were turn over the guns and submit to civilian authority. If their demands were that Young submit to a trial for the attempted marooning of Rush, you would have a point.

Why would you trust people like Greer to not break him out? Unfortunately members of the military are overly loyal on Destiny and it'd be foolhearty to leave them in a position of power at that time.

Actually, the penalty for Mutiny is Death, has been and always will be.

No, that is one potential penalty. Sentencing determines whether or not that will be the penalty given. Before you get to sentencing though the accused to granted the right to a trial with an active defense. This does happen in the military too ya know.

Everybody works for Stargate Command, therefore it's Mutiny.

Huh?!? Civilians are not subject to military law, no matter if they are employed by a military organisation or not. You're incorrect anyway. Wray is hired by the IOA, Chloe was a Senator's assistant. For all we are aware many of the scientists could be hired by the IOA. We don't have enough information to assume one way or another here.

It would never be anyone in the military. And the civilians don't have the spine to do it. Rush would have been the only one capable of it.

I am not sure one can say with any conviction if Young were to execute people because he can that no one in the military would step up against him, and civilians would just lay down. People only stay oppressed for so long before, even a single person, will rebel against it. In the case of assasinations, a single person would be all that would be required.

How so? They staged a mutiny, it wasn't successful, they were executed.

Yeah, and 80 people vs 30,000 is a big difference... everyone on Destiny is vital in some way to the continued survival of everyone on board. Loosing 2 people who were responsible for deaths on BSG is a different situation.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Deevil,

No, that is one potential penalty. Sentencing determines whether or not that will be the penalty given. Before you get to sentencing though the accused to granted the right to a trial with an active defense. This does happen in the military too ya know.

Well said. The issue here is not that Young wasn't wronged, clearly he was and Rush was in the wrong. The issue is the process that Young failed to give Rush upon discovering Rush's duplicity.

Being in a position of authority demands that authority be used with care and deliberation. Beating the **** out of someone (as punishment) because you are angry and without any sort of process before a neutral party smacks of medevial style "trial by combat". Regardless of Rush's provocation, Young screwed up precisely because he is in a position of authority. Young abused that authority when he beat and marooned Rush.

[garhkal]

the former. The scientists agreed to follow military orders when they signed up with the Air Force

But i see a number of people saying since they are so far away, earths rules shouldn't apply any more (especially when it comes to young stepping down or getting punished).. SO if that is the case, why should the scientists keep up their end of the bargain to work/follow the military?

In 'Time', you'll notice that Rush pulls out a remote from his backpack, when he runs out of ammo.
The same backpack that Rush was seen putting on as Young came to get him in the hallway on the way to view Spencer Kino footage.
The same backpack that he was wearing when was seen drinking water as Rush and Young.
The same backpack that was at Rush's feet after Young head-butted him.
And since Young wasn't carrying anything when he returned to Destiny, the backpack was probably left by Rush.

What was in the backpack? I have no idea, but it must have some things in there otherwise Rush wouldn't bring it with him in the first place

Since time was later on after he got back, it is my assumption he placed that remote device IN his bag as a precaution.

Let see. Minus Rush equals the group forging ahead cohesively, or, with Rush, crew members being sacrificed one at a time with no end in sight.
I, myself, choose the former, because the latter will definitively will mean my demise.

So far, we had the senator in Air Pt2.. The kid in water (who's death is NOT on rushes head). The few soldiers who died as part of the insurrectio by the LA.
Riley whos death is partially rush's fault. Spencer, who was a suicide..
And telford who is just MIA.
So other than the senator (who chose to sacrifice himself) and riley, the other deaths are NOT on his ledger.

Rush certainly has shown disdain for Greer and Greer ha returned it in kind.
Rush treats the military as servants and the military treats Rush as a mad scientist.

I wouldn;t say Rush treats all the mil as servants. More as idiots.. but for the most part the mil has shown distain for rush...

Yeah, but Rush's motivations are Destiny first, Crew second, a distant second.
If a choice came up where he had to decide Destiny on one hand versus a few crew members on the other side, I believe Rush would choose Destiny. Whereas Young would choose crew members. Rush believes that Young is dangerous because of this.
Dangerous because Young would place the lives of a few crew members ahead of his dream. The validation of his sacrifice of 2 and a half years and letting his wife die alone.

Since no destiny, so survival for ANYONE, i would make the same choice as rush..

Originally Posted by Misfits View Post
Yeah, in my opinion. We only have established that I would choose to do things that would have the group working for the same goal and eliminate those who won't confirm.
And, doing it your way would lead to chaos, confusion and paralysis and sacrifice of one crew member at a time.

So your an evil dictator.. Do as i say or die.

Greer has been hostile to Rush since the whole thing started, or are you forgetting the scene where he holds Rush at gunpoint when he's trying to fix the life support? That Rush's solution is dangerous is a non-issue. He had yet to implement it and was still arguing. Drawing his weapon like that was not the proper reaction.

Especially since AS a member of the military, wr are trained to only draw down on what we are willing to destroy, and ONLY do so when absolutely necessary.. when all lesser means have failed. GREER seems to go straight to the gun.

The safest course of action would have been if Sgt. Riley finished dialing Earth, all the evacuees stepped through, shut down the gate, and then dial the 9th chevron address.

Which as i explained earlier they did not have time to do.

How about in the gate room in 'Air', when Rush announced that he was put in charge. I remember nothing but dissent, civilian and military. I didn't hear a single voice defending Rush. Granted, they didn't gave a Kumbaya moment or a sing-a-long, but dissatisfaction with Rush was pretty universal.

Most from what i remember were arguing about who should be in charge. From the mil, to various civilians to the senator.

[jelgate]

But i see a number of people saying since they are so far away, earths rules shouldn't apply any more (especially when it comes to young stepping down or getting punished).. SO if that is the case, why should the scientists keep up their end of the bargain to work/follow the military?

.

Of course Earth rules still apply. They are still in contact. Young is still reporting to Jack. Wray is still reporting to the IOA

[Misfits]

Misfits,

Is it really your opinion that a Military Commander should have the ability to summarily execute a civilian under their command without giving that civilian the benefit of a trial, counsel, or resort to some higher military authority before that commander carries out the execution of the civilian in question? You've said Young's authority doesn't come from being in command of everyone who is carrying firearms on Destiny so where do you get that he has the authority to kill someone under his command without trial, counsel, or resort to higher military authority?

In a perfect world or even in Icarus Base, I believe Young would have handled it differently. Let the procedural process play through.

HOWEVER, Billions of light years away from Earth, stranded on an Ancient ship with very limited resources and supplies. he has additional concerns to deal with.

As Young declared at the end of 'Earth',

We are going to survive. We are going to make it home. Make no mistake. My first priority is to make sure that we all return to those we love.

I believe his primary duty is to safe guard the welfare of the crew.

ANYTHING and ANYONE threatening that must be eliminated. It is his duty to do so.
If he makes the determination that someone is a Clear and Present Danger, he must resolve the matter. Failure to do so would mean dereliction of duty.

After confronting Rush, underneath the alien ship, accusing him of the deed, Rush confessing and admitting to the deed, Young dispensed with punishment by beating the crap out of him. To show him that Rush can't lie his way out of it.

Which leads me to believe that Rush has misbehaved before and lied his way out.

By beating the crap out of him, Young was demonstrating to Rush that there will be personal physical consequences to his misbehaviors.

While confessing, Rush stated that Young is not fit to command, which is direct challenge to Young's authority.

That is the most troubling thing that Rush said. Young was demonstrating to Rush that Rush should be very careful. That Rush can not lie his way out of troubles, to be very careful with his actions.

This is when Young asked Rush, 'Are we done?', as in will you recognize my authority to lead and command? Will you abide by my decisions? Or Else.
Rush replied 'We'll never be done.', as in I won't recognize you authority and I will not abide by your decisions.

At this point, Young has a dilemma. This time there was a convenient Sgt. Spencer suicide that Rush used to frame Young. Next time, how far will Rush go in order to get what he wants? Will he kill somebody to frame Young? Or something else that will place more lives in mortal danger?

Young determined that Rush is a Clear and Present Danger to the welfare of the crew, and as such must be dealt with.

At this point Young has limited options to deal with Rush. Rush must be subtracted from the crew, how best to do it.

In 'Light' Rush said,

This ship ... coming here ... was my destiny. My life's work was to be here, not trying to survive on some rock with a bunch of strangers.

So, leaving him on the planet, ironically, was appropriate.

People forget, sometimes following proper procedure would do more harm than good. In case of a rape, if the accused professes innocence and a trial is conducted, the fact that the victim must testify would subject her to additional pain of re-living the incident. Same would be the case with child-molestation. Many times, plea deals for far less penalty are worked out specifically to spare the victim from having to testify.

In this case, I believe Young wanted to spare the crew from the pain. These type of proceedings would divide the crew and cause more harrn.

If that is the case what limits, if any, would you place upon the authority of a field commander who was in communication with his command?

Depend on the case and circumstances.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Misfits,

I see what you are arguing and here's my problem, if he's setting aside normal procedure and operating on his "own recognisense" so to speak he can't do it on his own. His authority derives from his commission from the U.S. Air Force and his position within the SGC when he takes actions under this authority it must be within the normal limits placed upon it by Civilian law and Military regulation.

If he's going to act as the "leader" of Destiny and work beyond the scope of the authority granted to him it must be in concert with other individuals the people on Destiny designate as his partners.

Marooning Rush, regardless of the provocation. Is beyond his authority under his commission. As such the decision of how Rush should be punished should have been made in concert with other parties.

[eta]

Let me put it another way. When Young "de-brainwashed" Telford he was acting under orders from SGC and within his authority as a Col. in the U.S. Air Force. Wray's protests were not relevant because he was acting within that authority. Marooning Rush, again regardless of provocation, was not within his authority. He was acting outside of that authority and as a result, he lied about what he did.

Does that make sense?

[morbosfist]

By quoting dialogue, you give your argument some factual basis. Otherwise, you can enchant your opinion out of thin air.
The old, 'I am right because I know I am right.' doesn't work too well.

Quoting dialogue only goes so far. There are physical cues, tone, etc. that the transcripts do not carry.

Again, I am speaking from a perspective that I knew Rush will get people killed. I'm sure that if Sgt, Spencer killed a few people before committing suicide, you wouldn't hesitate to use it.

If Spencer had killed even one person, then the entire crew probably would have demanded Young either lock him up or just plain shoot him. They were already getting tired of his crap.

The deaths (you claim) Rush is responsible for are different. Rush isn't killing these people. Their poor judgment and bad circumstances are.

Without Rush dialing the 9th chevron address, they wouldn't be there. No opportunity to get killed. pure and simple.

And if they stopped to consider their situation rather than acting rashly, they wouldn't be dead.

Yours are based on Fantasy, and just because you say so. Not thw to argue a point.

No more than yours are. You keep quoting dialogue, but that isn't supporting your assertions. Dialogue doesn't say why the aliens retreated in this instance. What the scene shows in that their shields were holding, Destiny was about to explode, and they decided to retreat.

So, you think one soldier will spend 24/7 guarding Rush. That sounds like death sentence for the guard.

That's why there's a wonderful thing called "shifts". Only need one soldier guarding Rush at any one time. They can take turns.

Question is one thing. This is completely different. You'll notice at the end of 'Justice', Wray tells Young that based on the new evidence Young should resume his position as Commander. Wray recognizes Young's authority. Why is it that Rush won't?
That is the crux of the problem. Rush's refusal to accept anyone else's authority to Command. A person like that is useless. The faster you get rid of him, the better off you are.

Wray knew that she couldn't hold command with Young proven innocent. She would have kept it if she thought she could. She recognizes his authority, but she doesn't have to like it. Rush, on the other hand, doesn't like it and wants something done about it. Framing for murder wasn't the best idea, but Rush at least thought it out. The fact remains that Young could, if he tried, actually work with Rush. He doesn't. They're antagonistic because they don't trust each other, and neither is helping.

Young should have shot Rush. Mutiny happened because Wray fermented discord, for which She should been shot.

She fermented discord because of Young's behavior, and until that point did not act to undermine him. Young encouraged her with his mistakes.

I see. So, not wanting to sacrifice someone on the chair is irrational.
The negative aspect of Rush is that he knows what's best and he should be the one making decisions.
You see, Rush's refusal to accept Young's authority is THE problem.
Because Young wouldn't allow him to sacrifice a person on the chair leads to framing for murder? What will Rush do next time?
If Rush accepted Young's Authority, THEN, any and all efforts can be made. Until then, it's a situation of EITHER you OR me.

Not wanting to sacrifice someone in the death chair is perfectly rational. Utterly denying any inquiry, at all, is irrational. Young doesn't compromise, which is bad in this situation.

Not quite, they would adapt. It is Human Nature to adapt and survive. When Rush couldn't solve the problem Dr. Perry was brought on to help. If anything, the crew has shown a will and determination to adapt and survive. To think any one person is indispensable would be foolish.

And yet, before and after this, what do people like to say when problems come up? "We need Rush." When it comes down to it, Rush knows what he's doing and everyone knows it. Get rid of him, you have a big problem.

Actually, I would be right and Rush would be dead, and everybody elsde would be alive.

Alive and lacking the one scientist on the ship who, without a doubt, knows what he's doing. Your crew would be dead not long after.

That's interesting. Poor decisions that were accepted as poor decisions, with good outcomes have become accepted decisions to do in said circumstances. This is apparent in Human history.

People have accepted the decisions, doesn't mean they were acceptable decisions. More a case of "the good you did outweighed the bad."

Your naivete totally amazes me.

Likewise with your lack of faith.

Spoiler:

Look at Greer and Wray at the end of "Awakening", and tell me they can't come to an understanding.

Why does it make her business? I didn't know she had a millitary position.

They're trapped on a ship together. When one person is a potential danger, it's everyone's business, just like with Spencer.

It does matter. Not being her decision to make, she doesn't get to decide. Young didn't ignore it. He was dealing with it. Just not as fast or as extreme as Wray wanted.

And look how well that turned out. He shot himself, and could have shot someone else if things had been just a little different.

Let's just look at that for a moment.
It's not like the language is in English, nobody has any idea what it says. One guy is saying it says this, the other guy says it says something else. Pressing the button could reset the system or blow up the ship. And you can't read the language so you have no idea who is correct. On top of all that you have a supposedly genius that couldn't solve the problems of the project, that just stranded you along with 80+ people billions of light years from Earth versus the kid that solved the problems. With this choice, you would just stand by and do nothing? THAT would be inane.

Doing nothing and holding someone at gunpoint are two extremes. Rush wasn't going to do it at the moment, and Scott rightfully talks Greer down.

Actually, you're the one who's reading it wrong.Rush said,'The chair COULD be the salvation.' Young said, 'In fact, the only thing we know for sure is an Ancient device like this is pretty much a death sentence.'
Young has shown that he, himself, is willing to sacrifice if necessary. However, without knowing that it will save anyone, sacrifice someone because it could, that's a stretch. Young was telling Rush to study the chair without sitting in it. Find out if it will actually do something beneficial, then, if worthwhile, he'll consider it.

He sealed the room and wouldn't let anyone in. That prevents study. This is precisely why Rush framed Young, because he needed access to the chair to study it.

Spoiler:

In 'Sabotage', someone needed to sit in the chair in order to command the ship to engage it's FTL. Young was willing to sit in the chair to accomplish this, knowing that it's probably a death sentence. You would think that Rush having better knowledge of ship systems, having sat in the chair previously in 'Human', would be the more logical choice.
These sequence of scenes tell you everything you need to know about Young and Rush.

Spoilers for a later episode.

Spoiler:

The situation in "Sabotage" is not the same as the situation in "Human". Rush used the chair when it was modified to be much less dangerous. Using the chair normally is dangerous. Young volunteers because he's just that kind of guy (which is frankly a stupid decision, he's just as important as Rush at the moment), Rush doesn't because he's the guy who fixes the ship.

Not forgetting who put you in this situation is dwelling. Hmmmm. So, I guess if he does something that makes the matter worse, I didn't dwell enough. I guess all the people Rush gets killed didn't dwell enough.

No, killing Rush is eliminating a clear and Present Danger so you can move forward.

Dwelling is focusing on blaming rather than focusing on survival. Eliminating Rush is blaming, because Rush hasn't personally gotten anyone killed.

No, we will never agree because I won't forget who created this dilemma, and won't give him the chance to make it worse.

And in doing so, you eliminate the one resource who can stop the situation from getting worse. You focus on the negative and ignore what he brings to the table.

My bad. I meant to say was crucial in 'Time'.

Spoiler:

Placing spy kinos through out the ship was one of Young's projects for Eli. Which proved invaluable for 'Incursion Part 3'.

Eli's hobby was crucial in "Time" to be sure. To the spoiler,

Spoiler:

Scott sent the Kino there himself. Eli doesn't have them just waiting in every vent, especially in the gate room.

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V

[morbosfist]

^
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Actually, nobody knows Whether Carter or McKay would have solved the problem.
Trying to extrapolate an answer to this question would be just foolish.

In my opinion, if I had to make a call, Carter wouldn't have but McKay would.
Carter wouldn't be so sure of the math part, so she probably would have continued to look at that part.
Whereas, McKay would have been more confident of the math part, so he probably would have looked at the other part. Additionally. McKay had already shown his willingness to dispense accepted methodology and look the problem from a different point of view.

Though I don't believe McKay would drop his preconceptions of gate mechanics so easily, this ties into my point regardless. You chastise Rush for not accepting that the formula would be right, but odds are Carter would behave the same (she just would be nicer about it). Rush's only character flaw here is his attitude, not his deductive reasoning. Preconceptions are hard to abandon.

So, if nobody stops you, you have a right to do? Or you're right in doing it? AND you want to defend this?
Doing something right wrongly can be very bad.
Have you noticed that Rush thanks Eli just once?
Rush treats everyone as servants, except Dr. Perry. His tone and choice of words make e this very apparent.

Not the best way to solicit cooperation from somebody who doesn't work for you.

If nobody stops you, then either they aren't willing or agree with the sentiment. It's a matter of circumstance, really. In this case, it's clearly the latter. Everyone else accepts lying to Young (Greer wold surely overrule Rush if he did not), so they say nothing when he straightens Eli out.

Rush's tone and choice of words is more to treat everyone else as a distraction.

Excuse me? Just what do you think 'Are we done?' meant?
Young gave Rush the chance to submit or else. Rush chose else, and he got else.

Actually,your success or failure encourages acceptance or argument.

If you're successful in accomplishing your goals, you'll be surprised how much tyranny is acceptable, whereas, if you keep failing, you couldn't be accommodating enough.

"Are we done?" was preceded by a beating rather than just dragging Rush back to the ship and dealing with him properly. Not a good way to convince Rush to cooperate.

Success and failure in goals only flies so long as your goals match those of the group. If they don't, doesn't matter if you succeed.

knowing Rush's motivation makes him a Clear and Present Danger.

Knowing Rush's motivation makes him the best person to keep the ship going as long as you keep him on a short leash.

So stranding 80+people billions of light years from home and getting crew members killed one by one, is heart warming? Maybe only to the Devil.

Let it go. As long as you focus on being stranded, you'll never be able to deal with the situation properly. Rush made a mistake, it's done. Now everyone has to deal with the consequences. Dwelling on the mistake helps no one.

Actually it works perfectly. having the Satagate is not a chance to go home. It is a chance that home could connect to you.

Just like having money and a ticket vendor is not a chance until you purchase a ticket, having a Stargate until you fins enough power to establish a connection to Earth.

They hope to find a chance in the future. but so far, they have had no chance.

It works both ways. The Stargate could send them home or bring people/things from home. There's a chance both ways.

When Wray acted wrong at the evidentiary hearing, Rush was still on Destiny. In fact, Rush was one of the people who took the stand.

That was earlier, and Wray was still right to act as she did because it appeared as if Young were the murderer.

Transcripts are perfect for showing the chronology of events, actual words spoken, etc... You don't use them because they won't support your point of view.

I don't need to quote large swaths of dialogue to support my views, and doing so isn't supporting your claims.

I don't see it that way. Young said "I have no choice.' because I, as the commander, have no other way to protect the ship. To read more than that would be ludicrous.

Not in light of what happens later.

Obviously the Alien who handled the stone serve an integral function on the shipo, and as such would be in a critical area of the ship. Hence the quick finding of Rush by Stoned Young. But don;t let that keep you from arguing your pointless opinion.

The alien who handled the stone didn't even know what it was. He could have been the janitor for all they knew.

And jusat where did Eli indicate this, or has ever indicated that he used 'Risk' to mean 'Likely'?

Watch the scene. Eli's tone of voice isn't meant as a mild warning. He's telling Young that there's a very real chance of it. This is why quoting dialogue doesn't work. You don't get the little details.

Young meant 'I' as in the commander making decisions. To read more than that is delusional.

Or he meant I as in "need to cover my mistakes." Given his later conversation, it's a wholly logical extrapolation.

Not necessary, also, Young is apt to hold only himself to blame if something goes wrong, hence the use of 'I' instead of 'WE'.

Necessary and helpful are two very different things. Explaining himself, even with a single line, would be enough to placate Scott. His later statement is still an indication of self-interest, per his conversation with Rush.

See, Science Fiction is the realm that the show is based, not a license to make up things just to fit your theory.

Your theory is so convoluted that it smacks delusional.
First of all, they have tried to dial the 9th chevron address before. As Scott said in 'Air'. we never got this far. And this was after the 8th chevron locked. And the power levels only spiked when they encoded the 9th chevron.
Earth is a 7 chevron address. Compared to the power requirements for dialing a 9th chevron address, dialing Earth should have been fairly safe.
Additionally, dialing the 9th chevron address, and the power required for a connection, is probably what sped up the planet's core to go critical.
As it turns out, we know that the Stargate was active for over 6 minutes while connected to the 9th chevron address.
It should have taken less than 2 minutes to evacuated everybody to Earth.
The reason why Rush dialed the 9th Chevron address is because Rush wanted to go there and he knew he would need a support staff.
Interestingly enough, Rush's conversation with Telford is quite telling in 'Earth'.
It seems Telford wanted Rush off the expedition team. And there's no guarantee that Rush was on the team to would have went.
Rush may have seen as his only chance to go, and he took it. By the way, to hell with everybody else's safety.

Telford wanted Rush off the team but didn't get his way. Rush makes that a point. Rush was a member of the team and would have gotten to go, regardless of the circumstances. Telford's point in that scene was that Rush might not get to go back if they established a connection to Earth.

To the dialling, they set up the gate to draw power from the planet. No matter what address is dialled, power is going to come from that source. They disabled inbound dialling precisely because the energy drawn from the core could react badly. No matter what address is dialled, it would react with the core, which was already unstable. The only difference is how much of that energy is going to feeding the wormhole.

More like delusional interpretation.

Won't disagree.

Yeah, he's going to get them killed one by one.

And he's also the only one keeping them alive. It's a vicious cycle.

No, matter of logic. Of course he would, but beggars can't be choosers. This is what he got, and he's not going to let go.

And just how did you arrive at your conclusion? By seance? As I laid out, logic dictates that without a crew gating from Earth to Destiny, Rush would very likely sabotage Destiny crew going home.

He's only sabotaged one attempt, and the crew is better for it. It's highly doubtful Rush would sabotage a safe attempt.

[Misfits]

You can trust someone implicitly and know that they aren't suited for a position. Trust and ability and capability are often mutually exclusive.

I guess, if you want to, you probably can find exceptions for anything and everything.
However, Lack of Trust on the person leading you, that's a far stretch.
You can dislike or even hate someone and still trust the person, but not trust the person and still follow the person? I don't think so.

Why would you trust people like Greer to not break him out? Unfortunately members of the military are overly loyal on Destiny and it'd be foolhearty to leave them in a position of power at that time.

Because it's their loyalty that bonds them to Young. If Young orders them this or that, it is this and that.

Greer, especially TOTALLY trusts Young. Especially in 'Light' choosing what he thought was certain death than side with Sgt. Spencer.
And in Incursion, stoically guarding the room, while Rush/Telford was dying.
Yet, when Young gives an order to Greere, Greer follows.

No, that is one potential penalty. Sentencing determines whether or not that will be the penalty given. Before you get to sentencing though the accused to granted the right to a trial with an active defense. This does happen in the military too ya know.

Sentence for Mutiny is Death, have been and always will be.

Huh?!? Civilians are not subject to military law, no matter if they are employed by a military organisation or not. You're incorrect anyway. Wray is hired by the IOA, Chloe was a Senator's assistant. For all we are aware many of the scientists could be hired by the IOA. We don't have enough information to assume one way or another here.

If they partake in Mutiny/Coup, guess what, they're subject to the consequence.

I am not sure one can say with any conviction if Young were to execute people because he can that no one in the military would step up against him, and civilians would just lay down. People only stay oppressed for so long before, even a single person, will rebel against it. In the case of assasinations, a single person would be all that would be required.

Yes, I can say that with conviction. In Incursion, this exchange happened.

SCOTT: If I had known that killing him and bringing him back was the only way to beat that brainwashing technology, I'd have been behind you one hundred percent.
YOUNG: So you'll follow orders as long as I explain everything to you beforehand?
SCOTT: No, sir, that is not what I meant.
YOUNG: Well, that's good, because if it was, we'd have a problem, Lieutenant. Do we have a problem?
(He stares into Scott's eyes. Scott meets his gaze for a few seconds, then wilts.)
SCOTT: No, sir.

Military personnel are men of honor. They trust each other to cover their 6. Their bond to each other make them such an effective unit.

So far, Young has done nothing but protect them, even from the mad scientist. He has made the right call each and every time. He has not shown a preference of one group over other. and he has shown that he values each and every one under his charge, civilian and military.

The type of loyalty Young has garnered from Greer is not bestowed on a person. It is EARNED. It is not something that is thrown away so easily.

Yeah, and 80 people vs 30,000 is a big difference... everyone on Destiny is vital in some way to the continued survival of everyone on board. Loosing 2 people who were responsible for deaths on BSG is a different situation.

Yeah, vital for Rush to use as sacrifice to further his agenda. Currently he has 80 sacrificial subjects, but that number is going down steadily, like an unstoppable stampede.

Without Rush, they have a chance to stay intact and possibly find a chance to get home.
With Rush, they will bleed slowly, and no chance to get home.
I, myself, would choose the former.

[Misfits]

Well said. The issue here is not that Young wasn't wronged, clearly he was and Rush was in the wrong. The issue is the process that Young failed to give Rush upon discovering Rush's duplicity.

Being in a position of authority demands that authority be used with care and deliberation. Beating the **** out of someone (as punishment) because you are angry and without any sort of process before a neutral party smacks of medevial style "trial by combat". Regardless of Rush's provocation, Young screwed up precisely because he is in a position of authority. Young abused that authority when he beat and marooned Rush.

That is so easily said from the comfort of your easy chair, with no danger to your existence.
Billions of light years from home, with scarce resources, not such an easy call.

[Misfits]

But i see a number of people saying since they are so far away, earths rules shouldn't apply any more (especially when it comes to young stepping down or getting punished).. SO if that is the case, why should the scientists keep up their end of the bargain to work/follow the military?

The command structure that was in place in Icarus Base, followed with the evacuees.
They have been, temporarily they hope, stranded on Destiny. So the the same Command structure should continue.

Since time was later on after he got back, it is my assumption he placed that remote device IN his bag as a precaution.

There were more than one remote.

Later, Eli has returned to the cave and Greer has been out with Rush. The two of them are just now returning through a new bout of pouring rain. T.J. is checking Franklin, who is still lying unconscious on the cave floor.
JOHANSEN: His pulse is very weak.
(Eli turns to Rush as he comes closer.)
WALLACE: Did using the other remote help?
RUSH: We were able to get a connection, but the wormhole's still unstable. Nothing from Destiny on the radio.

So far, we had the senator in Air Pt2.. The kid in water (who's death is NOT on rushes head). The few soldiers who died as part of the insurrectio by the LA.
Riley whos death is partially rush's fault. Spencer, who was a suicide..
And telford who is just MIA.
So other than the senator (who chose to sacrifice himself) and riley, the other deaths are NOT on his ledger.

Every death is on Rush's ledger. They wouldn't be there if Rush didn't dial the 9th chevron address.

I wouldn;t say Rush treats all the mil as servants. More as idiots.. but for the most part the mil has shown distain for rush...

Rush has stranded you on a ship billions of light years from home with no way to get back. You wouldn't show any disdain toward him? You would be a saint.

Since no destiny, so survival for ANYONE, i would make the same choice as rush..

Maybe I should have phrased that better.

So your an evil dictator.. Do as i say or die.

Not quite.
What I said was, I am the recognized Leader of the group. Accept my authority and abide by my decisions. And in that regards, work to achieve our primary goal, returning home. DO NOT work against that, OR ELSE.

Especially since AS a member of the military, wr are trained to only draw down on what we are willing to destroy, and ONLY do so when absolutely necessary.. when all lesser means have failed. GREER seems to go straight to the gun.

Gee, that is what Young is doing and he professes to do. He will not sacrifice anyone unless absolutely necessary and he will put himself at the front of the line.
Rush wants to sacrifice people on the chance that it could prove useful, not a certainty, only a possibility, and it has to be someone other than him.

Which as i explained earlier they did not have time to do.

Which I explained earlier that they did.

Most from what i remember were arguing about who should be in charge. From the mil, to various civilians to the senator.

Yeah, it started by Rush LYING about being put in charge by General O'Neill.
It's interesting that Rush will use the Stargate Command's authority to to define the Commander in this instance, yet, Col. Young, who Stargate Command considers to be in charge, Rush decides he shouldn't be.

Someone should ask Rush, Does the Stargate Command, and for intent and purpose, General O'Neill, have the right and authority to select the Commander of Destiny?
If yes, then who gave him the right to over ride that decision in regards to Young?
If no, then why would he declare that he was put in charge by Gen. O'Neill?

[Deevil]

I guess, if you want to, you probably can find exceptions for anything and everything.

And that's the point. You see the fact that no one wants to follow Rush as a lack of trust. I see it as that these people know he isn't capable of the position. Neither are wrong, they are just different.

Because it's their loyalty that bonds them to Young. If Young orders them this or that, it is this and that.

I am aware, but blind loyalty is dangerous. Not only dangerous, but when he finally falls from grace those who blindly follow (which is really only Greer these days) are gonna be mad. Greer does a good mad too.

Sentence for Mutiny is Death, have been and always will be.

And you can keep on spouting it like it's a fact till the end of the world, the truth is it's only 1 potential sentence. The person proceeding over the trial has the right to sentence the guilty party (if in fact they are found guilty) to whatever they wish within their scope.

The truth of the matter is, civilians are under a different law and thus will be put under trial in a civil court - which changes things. Furthermore, I am not convinced given the situation that lead to the mutiny that Wray and Rush would actually be found guilty of their crimes by a jury of their peers.

Yes, I can say that with conviction. In Incursion, this exchange happened.

That's nice. It doesn't prove anything. Why? The hypothetical situation of Wray and Rush being executed (and whoever else) hasn't happened therefore predicting how the military and civs will act is nigh on impossible.

Military personnel are men of honor. They trust each other to cover their 6. Their bond to each other make them such an effective unit.

Of course, randomly executing people can eliminate that trust. Trust is earnt, and often removed. It's not just given because they are in the military.

Without Rush, they have a chance to stay intact and possibly find a chance to get home.
With Rush, they will bleed slowly, and no chance to get home.
I, myself, would choose the former.

Without Rush they will be more likely to die. You take your chances without him, I'd rather take my chances with him.

[Misfits]

Misfits,

I see what you are arguing and here's my problem, if he's setting aside normal procedure and operating on his "own recognisense" so to speak he can't do it on his own. His authority derives from his commission from the U.S. Air Force and his position within the SGC when he takes actions under this authority it must be within the normal limits placed upon it by Civilian law and Military regulation.

If he's going to act as the "leader" of Destiny and work beyond the scope of the authority granted to him it must be in concert with other individuals the people on Destiny designate as his partners.

Marooning Rush, regardless of the provocation. Is beyond his authority under his commission. As such the decision of how Rush should be punished should have been made in concert with other parties.

[eta]

Let me put it another way. When Young "de-brainwashed" Telford he was acting under orders from SGC and within his authority as a Col. in the U.S. Air Force. Wray's protests were not relevant because he was acting within that authority. Marooning Rush, again regardless of provocation, was not within his authority. He was acting outside of that authority and as a result, he lied about what he did.

Does that make sense?

See, I like having a conversation with you. You can logically frame your argument instead of just enchanting it out of thin air.

My point is that when Rush chose to answer 'We'll never be done.', Rush declared that he will never stop his behavior. which made him a Clear and Present Danger to the crew, Young's primary responsibility.
Therefore, Young was required to subtract him from the crew.
Given this situation, Young left him on the planet alive. I would have killed him.
As for not being truthful to the crew. I believe it was his desire to not divide the crew that made him choose this tact. That's all.

Centrally, being stranded on a ship billions of light years from home gives him additional responsibilities, including the necessity to keep the group together.
Rush has shown that he is willing to divide the group in order to achieve his goal, which is not necessarily the groups goal.
Rush has clearly shown that he is a Clear and Present Danger, and as such must be dealt with.

I just want to know one thing.
How do you deal with a mad scientist cretin that has shown that he will divide the crew, will stop at nothing to get what he wants, sacrifice anyone in an instance on the possibility that it could be useful, and places his agenda above everybody else's and lies to wiggle out of self-created dilemmas, and won't recognize any authority?

Please answer me that one. And don't say place him under guard. That would require at least 2 guards at 12 hour shifts, more likely 3 guards in 8 hour shifts, and would pretty much be a death sentence to those guards, because they couldn't do anything else. Never mind the consumption of resources of all these people that have become non-entities, FOREVER, or at least until they get back home.
Anything less, and Rush will find a way to lie and slither his way out of it, and then, you have on your hands someone who will push the envelope further next time.
And that would likely result in people dying.

[Misfits]

Quoting dialogue only goes so far. There are physical cues, tone, etc. that the transcripts do not carry.

I never said it was perfect. However, it does give you a precise reference to what I'm saying. Please, re-watch the sequence in the episodes and make your own mind. In fact, I insist.

If Spencer had killed even one person, then the entire crew probably would have demanded Young either lock him up or just plain shoot him. They were already getting tired of his crap.

That may well be, however, that's not even hindsight. That's hypothetical fantasy. Let's not start down that slope because there wouldn't be enough time or space to contain that type of discussion.

The deaths (you claim) Rush is responsible for are different. Rush isn't killing these people. Their poor judgment and bad circumstances are.

Rush is responsible for everything that happened after he CHOSE to dial the 9th chevron address.

And if they stopped to consider their situation rather than acting rashly, they wouldn't be dead.

And if they weren't there in the first place, they wouldn't need to consider, choose to act, or be dead.
Rush's fault. Pure and simple.

No more than yours are. You keep quoting dialogue, but that isn't supporting your assertions. Dialogue doesn't say why the aliens retreated in this instance. What the scene shows in that their shields were holding, Destiny was about to explode, and they decided to retreat.

I keep on quoting dialogue because that is what was said, in the sequence it was said. I don't pretend that you can read the aliens motivation or reasoning.

The transcript clearly states that the Alien's attack started while Young was still trying to re-connect.
You have said otherwise. The transcript supports my position. What supports yours?

That's why there's a wonderful thing called "shifts". Only need one soldier guarding Rush at any one time. They can take turns.

You said 1 soldier, not me. 2 soldiers in 12 hour shifts, 3 soldiers in 8 hour shifts, 4 soldiers in 6 hour shifts, etc...

And these soldiers get to sleep, eat, shower, etc... The usable hours is less than 24, yet, that is the number of hours a guard must be present.

How many soldiers are you willing to use and make useless for anything else to guard a single man?

Wray knew that she couldn't hold command with Young proven innocent. She would have kept it if she thought she could. She recognizes his authority, but she doesn't have to like it. Rush, on the other hand, doesn't like it and wants something done about it. Framing for murder wasn't the best idea, but Rush at least thought it out. The fact remains that Young could, if he tried, actually work with Rush. He doesn't. They're antagonistic because they don't trust each other, and neither is helping.

The only thing you got right is that Wray recognizes Young's authority.
As I have reasoned in other parts of these discussion,
Do you believe Rush recognizes and accepts Stargate Command, specifically Gen O'Neill's authority, to select the Commander of Destiny?

If no, then, why did Rush use this as the reason he was in command in the gateroom in 'Air'?
If yes, then, since Gen. O'Neill clearly has selected Young to be Commander,who gave him the right to countermand that by framing Young of murder?

As for working together, that is not possible until Rush accepts Young's authority and abides by his decision. Which Rush professed he will never do at the base of the alien ship in 'Justice', 'We'll never be done.'

She fermented discord because of Young's behavior, and until that point did not act to undermine him. Young encouraged her with his mistakes.

Wrong, she started to undermine him at the evidentiary hearing knowing that Rush framed Young.

Not wanting to sacrifice someone in the death chair is perfectly rational. Utterly denying any inquiry, at all, is irrational. Young doesn't compromise, which is bad in this situation.

Are you watching the same sequence?
In 'Life'

RUSH: So what are we to do, Colonel? Just ignore what this Chair can do?
YOUNG: I'm not telling you to ignore it. I'm telling you to study it without sitting in it.... Rush, you want this Chair to be some kind of wonderful discovery, that's fine. Prove it. You prove we can use it safely to do something we actually need it to do.

What Young wants is proof that sitting in the chair is a necessity in order to do something, until then study it without sacrificing a person.
And you believe this is irrational?

And yet, before and after this, what do people like to say when problems come up? "We need Rush." When it comes down to it, Rush knows what he's doing and everyone knows it. Get rid of him, you have a big problem.

Why don't you ask all the people Rush kills, or will get killed how much they want Rush?

Alive and lacking the one scientist on the ship who, without a doubt, knows what he's doing. Your crew would be dead not long after.

No, they would have to adapt in order to survive. It would be up to them.
With Rush, it wouldn't be up to them, they will perish one by one. It already started, and there is no end in sight.

In another words, without Rush they have self-determination.
With Rush, however knowledgeable and helpful he can be, they don't have any self-determination.

People have accepted the decisions, doesn't mean they were acceptable decisions. More a case of "the good you did outweighed the bad."

Interesting argument. You're starting to sound like Young when he questioned Rush, 'The end justifies the means?'

Likewise with your lack of faith.

Spoiler:

Look at Greer and Wray at the end of "Awakening", and tell me they can't come to an understanding.

I have total faith that Wray is a moron.

They're trapped on a ship together. When one person is a potential danger, it's everyone's business, just like with Spencer.

And Rush causing deaths is not? Spencer only eneded up killing himself. Rush is killing one crew member at a time. You tell me who's more dangerous?

And look how well that turned out. He shot himself, and could have shot someone else if things had been just a little different.

And if Sgt. Spencer had not committed suicide, do you think killing someone in oeder to frame Young is beyond Rush's capability?

Doing nothing and holding someone at gunpoint are two extremes. Rush wasn't going to do it at the moment, and Scott rightfully talks Greer down.

Holding a gun at Rush is very reasonable. Pressing the button could explode the ship.
By the way, you're on the ship, which means, pressing the button will kill you. Someone threatens you with your life and you have a gun and you're going to have a Kumbaya moment?

He sealed the room and wouldn't let anyone in. That prevents study. This is precisely why Rush framed Young, because he needed access to the chair to study it.

Just when did this 'sealing' happen? I heard Young say that he wanted a guard posted, nothing about sealing any room.
Young told Rush to study it without sitting in it. That would mean access to chair without the ability to actually sit in it.

The situation in "Sabotage" is not the same as the situation in "Human". Rush used the chair when it was modified to be much less dangerous. Using the chair normally is dangerous. Young volunteers because he's just that kind of guy (which is frankly a stupid decision, he's just as important as Rush at the moment), Rush doesn't because he's the guy who fixes the ship.

I didn't say it was. But the fact remains that Rush is the more logical choice given he has an idea of what needs to be done.
Which goes to show you how much of a coward Rush is and his willingness to sacrifice anybody and everybody ahead of himself.
Whereas Young would sacrifice himself because he's unwilling to sacrifice anybody else.

Dwelling is focusing on blaming rather than focusing on survival. Eliminating Rush is blaming, because Rush hasn't personally gotten anyone killed.

Really, Rush hasn't personally gotten anyone killed. You actually want to stand on those stilts.
Rush dialed the 9th chevron address and stranded 80+people in an Ancient where the atmosphere was slowly dissipating.
Like Rush said, someone has got to go in there and close the door.
It was Senator Armstrong that went in and closed the door, but, if he didn't, then it would have been someone else.

Spoiler:

Since you referenced 'Awakening', I presume you already watched 'Aftermath'.

Do you still want to stand on those stilts?

And in doing so, you eliminate the one resource who can stop the situation from getting worse. You focus on the negative and ignore what he brings to the table.

What Rush bring to the table is death, one at a time.

Eli's hobby was crucial in "Time" to be sure. To the spoiler,

Spoiler:

Scott sent the Kino there himself. Eli doesn't have them just waiting in every vent, especially in the gate room.

Not quite. What Scott got was the remote to view it. The Kino was already there. There's no way Scott would have been able to place a Kino in that room without anybody noticing it.