'Divided' (112) General Discussion

[Lahela]

Too bad they don't have a person like Dr. Weir or Richard Woolsey. At least with Atlantis, you had a civillian in control and then a commander for the military to make those military calls. The military is controlled and takes orders from a civillian government and has checks and balances. I think they need to set up a sorta of Atlantis kinda leadership.

So the obvious question is, if not Young then who? It can't be anyone else in the military unless Young were to chose to step down (which he wouldn't do). Wray has no qualifications to lead a mission of this type. Rush has his own agenda and has shown himself to be untrustworthy several times and quite willing to manipulate people to do things not in their own best interest.

regards,
G.

What Brian said.

[Gollumpus]

What Brian said.

Yeah. What I was wondering was, just who fits that bill from the folks currently on Destiny? Wray doesn't work. Rush is to dangerous and unpopular. No one in the military could do it while Young is around and in command. Who do we have left? Eli or Chloe. Not much there. Either would be seen as too young, or too inexperienced or something...

I'm not looking to start a lengthy debate or anything, it's just that I don't see anyone filling the role.

regards,
G.

[dacooker]

best quote from Young "maybe I should just shoot you right now."

[Cold Fuzz]

Well just watched the episode very tired now, it is 2:15am here. It was a very good episode. Will likely make my top 5 for the first season. I am starting to really root for these characters. It seems Rush is developing quite nicely and poor Eli is thrown in the middle of everything. Rush was afraid Young would airlock him because of the tracking device. Instead he got a surgical team together to save his life. These characters still have trust issues, and well from what I heard is happening in the end of the season, they need to act as one and become a happy familt. Too bad they don't have a person like Dr. Weir or Richard Woolsey. At least with Atlantis, you had a civillian in control and then a commander for the military to make those military calls. The military is controlled and takes orders from a civillian government and has checks and balances. I think they need to set up a sorta of Atlantis kinda leadership. Remember Atlantis was cut off from Earth completely. So they had to survive with no communication whatsoever. I can see someone from earth coming in to check up on the Destiny.

Should be interesting how all this happens. I think from now, no one is going to try and hurt or kill anyone. I think events will happen that will put more trust in eachother.

Chloe scored some points for me. Scott just gets more on my nerves everyweek. He just does not think.

It would be ideal if they had a Richard Woolsey or Elizabeth Weir in their midst--someone who understood the military mindset and procedure but answered to the IOA. Unfortunately, nobody onboard fits that bill. Wray just doesn't cut it in my opinion as she's a resource specialist and her siding with Rush I think was a big mistake on her part. Her idea of instigating a mutiny...well there's going to be consequences down the road for her on that.

Now her trying to form a third faction that presented an ideological midpoint between the scientists and the military would have been good but that's not at all what happened. Mutineers in desperate situations can often get shot. She and Rush are damned lucky that Young isn't so harsh that he would put them under house arrest in their quarters.

Young is the only one to lead given their situation.

Absolutely correct. With Wray just not cut out to lead and Rush having been repeatedly manipulative and having his own hidden agenda, Young is the logical choice. Though the issue of the crew's disunity has been brought to the surface, it's anything but resolved. I'm sure there's going to be fallout from this down the line with the crew mistrusting each other.

[Lahela]

Yeah. What I was wondering was, just who fits that bill from the folks currently on Destiny? Wray doesn't work. Rush is to dangerous and unpopular. No one in the military could do it while Young is around and in command. Who do we have left? Eli or Chloe. Not much there. Either would be seen as too young, or too inexperienced or something...

I'm not looking to start a lengthy debate or anything, it's just that I don't see anyone filling the role.

regards,
G.

I don't think that there is any one person who is suitable, which is why I think a cooperative arrangement needs to be made. Young, Wray and Rush all have vital contributions to be made, so my ideal (if highly improbable) scenario would be to have them work together. A bit like Weir/Sheppard/McKay managed most of the time.

[Gollumpus]

I suspect what we will see is a "shogunate" structure. Likely, Wray will be the nominal leader and she will bring most (all?) of the civilian pop with her. Young will support her leadership while it pleases him to do so. There will be periods where he will choose not to support her decisions but most often he will. I still don't see what makes her good leadership material. I'd like to see someone else (eg. Chloe? /shudder) come forward as the civilian leader leaving Wray to manipulate behind the scenes.

Rush will be Rush.

regards,
G.

[Tuvok]

I suspect what we will see is a "shogunate" structure. Likely, Wray will be the nominal leader and she will bring most (all?) of the civilian pop with her. Young will support her leadership while it pleases him to do so. There will be periods where he will choose not to support her decisions but most often he will. I still don't see what makes her good leadership material. I'd like to see someone else (eg. Chloe? /shudder) come forward as the civilian leader leaving Wray to manipulate behind the scenes.

Rush will be Rush.

regards,
G.

Good plan, except Wray is not much of a manipulator. She tends to whine, and insinuate and lets be honest she is a real good instigator . But she is no manipulator. That magnificent ******* Rush on the other hand ...

[Khentkawes]

Loved this episode. Loved the development for Chloe, the ethical issues, the freaky aliens still chasing them, and was completed shocked by Rush's revelation that he had a transmitter implanted in his chest. I actually found a lot of things very disturbing, but in a thought-provoking way. Although, I think I was most concerned by the return to the status quo at the end. The military is back in charge, the tensions are even higher than before, and the whole mutiny changed nothing. Except of course that it revealed a lot about how people are thinking based on what side they choose and how they reacted, so I'm sure we'll see more of the fall-out from this in the episodes to come.

i loved the holy **** expression on rush's face when young pulled the gun out...... i seriously think rush is scared that col. young is going to kill him.

Rush isn't scared... he's terrified! He never really trusted Young, and after what happened in Justice the colonel proved that Rush was completely right to distrust him. I re-watched Space tonight and noticed Rush's body language in that scene with him and Young (the "for the sake of the crew" scene). Carlyle does an amazing job of subtly showing how scared Rush is. He tenses when Young moves closer to him and it looks like he's trying very hard not to flinch or step away. And now that we know Rush was implanted with a transmitter, he knows Young will see him as a liability and get rid of him. So yes, Rush is terrified. And with good reason I think.

Even if you agreed with the military, everything they did to respond to the mutiny only legitimized the civilians' actions.

Exactly. I don't think the civilians went about things the right way, but I do understand their point and their motivations. I can also sort of understand the military's perspective. But (and it's a huge "but") by using force and waving guns in people's faces, the military just proved that the civilians were right and that they can't trust their military "colleagues." The problem is basically that the civilians feared they weren't physically safe on board the Destiny. They were afraid, especially after Rush's return, that the instant they stepped out of line or irritated the military in any way, they would be staring down the barrel of a gun. Or stranded on a lifeless planet somewhere. They had doubts, and now the military's actions have just shown that their worst fears were all too accurate.

Loved Chloe,
felt both sorry for and angry at Eli and TJ,
hated James and Greer,
was frustrated at Wray's bureaucratic way of running a mutiny,
appreciated seeing Rush's honest fear of Young,
and felt entirely justified in my opinion that Young is not the person to lead.

Agree with all except the thing about James. I am angry at her, but I still feel bad for her. I like her, and I will need to see more of her character before I decide how I feel about her actions in this episode. Right now I think she made poor decisions, but she's certainly not alone in that. And as for the last point: completely agree that Young should not be the leader. He still scares me and I think he needs to be removed from command. Preferably by Scott, TJ, and James.

So the obvious question is, if not Young then who?

I honestly think that Wray was on to something with the idea of civilian leadership, but even more importantly, I don't think that one single person should be leader of the Destiny. There isn't a single person on board who is qualified or trustworthy enough. I agree that Rush's motivations are suspect, as is Wray's judgment. And Young just plain doesn't know how to keep his temper in check or how to listen to anyone.

At this point, the only option I see is cooperation, and I think that would require two (possibly three) individuals to assume positions as "co-leaders." I know people are going to say that there's no such thing as "co-command" in the military. But let's face it... military leadership on the Destiny is already a failed experiment. There needs to be some sort of joint leadership that allows for both a military and civilian (or scientist) point-of-view and some amount of discussion before decisions are made. The military argument is that there isn't always time for discussion. Fine. Fair enough. But aside from alien attacks, in most situations there will be two minutes for a few people to confer and discuss what the best option would be. So elect three people who will govern by consensus in the majority of situations (they could have one of those leaders represent the military, one represent the scientists, and maybe one to represent a moderate point of view?). On the rare occasions when there is absolutely no time to discuss an issue, then defer to whoever is most qualified to make that decision. Yes, it would be complicated, and I admit it's a terribly idealistic plan. But at this point, I think it's probably the only way to foster any type of cooperation. As long as one person is in charge, it will run the risk of becoming a dictatorship with no source of accountability. And I think we've already established that there are no qualified, intelligent, and benevolent dictators on board to fill the position. The military and civilian groups will both need to compromise, otherwise they are just going to remain in this stand-off indefinitely.

[Gollumpus]

Good plan, except Wray is not much of a manipulator. She tends to whine, and insinuate and lets be honest she is a real good instigator . But she is no manipulator. That magnificent ******* Rush on the other hand ...

Yeah, but she's learning at the feet of a master...

regards,
G.

[Vapor]

EXCELLENT episode.

It's a small detail, but I love the fact that Chloe's mother shows up in her dream sequence. She doesn't have any lines, she doesn't play a part in the story at all- she's just there for a few seconds, and she's gone, and no one brings her up again. It feels like a true artistic choice, rather what we often get, which is the inclusion of a character based purely on the fact that the actor is in town, or they're free to film something. Chloe's feeling uneasy about her experience aboard the alien ship and a stray thought of her mother pops into her head, and THAT'S IT. It's just not the type of thing SG normally would seem to do, and I loved it for that.

What I enjoyed about the civilian/military conflict is that I don't think either side is entirely right or wrong. People on both sides have a good point, and as we've seen in this very thread, there are many people who could easily find themselves agreeing more with one or the other.

Myself, I tend to side more with the civilians, just because Rush is crazy, and even if he's useful, he's still the most self-interested person onboard with the capability to cause trouble. There's also the fact that every single military person is not their enemy, and choosing to withold food and water isn't going to make the military guys more inclined to love them. I assume the truth about Rush framing Young for murder will come out soon. And if it doesn't, then why the hell not? Seriously, it needs to happen.

Yay, Chloe! This is definitely one of her best episodes. I was hoping she would be forced into a new mindset after her abduction, but I wasn't prepared for just how far they were going to take it. I find myself loving that she went to these lengths to make her point, and that it was a difficult decision for her, which ultimately might have burned some bridges with Scott and Eli. Of all the ways to complicate their little triangle, this was not one that I expected. But it's great nonetheless.

Young just waltzing into the room when Rush and Wray thought they were in control was priceless. Say what you want about Young's conduct as leader, it's moments like this that make me love him. And in this scenario, he was entirely justified in taking back the ship and holding the instigator of the entire conflict at gunpoint. Lucky for Rush, Young didn't do what Rush might have feared and throw him out an airlock- instead he had the tracking device surgically removed.

I will say that I was very happy with Young admitting the mistake he made by leaving Rush on the planet. As much as I like Young as a character, that was a terrible decision made more out of a split-second flash of emotion than it was for anything else (even if Rush was clearly a danger to him and the others), so it was nice to see him fess up to it. He admits he was wrong and has to work it out as he goes along, because there's no one else to relieve him. At least no one that wouldn't implode after the first few hours. >_>

TJ vs. Chloe- Awesome.
Eli vs. Rush vs. Young - Awesome.
Scott vs. His Original Hairstyle - Awesome.
This episode in general- Awesome.

[harakiri]

Wow! This is now one of my favourite episodes.
Loved Chloe,
felt both sorry for and angry at Eli and TJ,
hated James and Greer,
was frustrated at Wray's bureaucratic way of running a mutiny,
appreciated seeing Rush's honest fear of Young,
and felt entirely justified in my opinion that Young is not the person to lead.

Then who should lead?
I have tried this question here so many times without getting a decent answer.


Lets sum it up a bit:
Rush stranded those people there.
Young wanted to dial earth from Icarus.
Rush framed Young for an murder,and wanted a leader to make the "life and death
decision" ,and then Young did. It was a wrong choice,but Young did however save Rush the next time. And while Rush have spread his story about being left to die on the planet,Young has so far not said anything about being framed by Rush.
When Young learned that Rush had a tracking device operated inside him he came up with the idea to get someone from earth to help them take it out. No air-lock!!

I see here that people want a government-kinda thing on the Destiny. Yes its correct that we have elected people in countries ruling the military,but this is not a country. Was not the Icarus-base an military base? The word "base" in its own sounds military.
When we look at the situation from the start a bit: The closes thing to a government-person that has been on the ship was Chloe`s dad,and if I am not mistaken he did not seem to approve Rush`s choice to dial the 9`th chevron. (I might be wrong). To speculate a bit: If Mr. Armstrong still have been there,he might have been a leader for both the civilians and the military,but he would anyway most likely take the military advises long before Rush`s advises.

This episode just made it even more clearly that the right leader is Young. Wray should be imprisoned for conspiring against the very same military that could and would save her life if she ever would need it. Rush also deserves to be locked up,but they could need him. What both the civilians and the military don`t need is another incident like this. So if either Rush,Wray or the others try to take over the ship again I feel it is time to put a stop to it.

This episode almost had everything. After watching it twice tonight is it only one thing I want;peace! I want the enemies outside Destiny,not on board. I sure hope the writers not plan to have more personal drama than sci-fi. We`re out in space for crying out loud. I would think it would be more likely to stick together in that kinda situation,but hey,I have`nt tried.

What rules does the military have for a mutiny made by civilians I don`t know. I guess there cant be any court-martial towards civilians,but this is a very special situation so who knows what can be done.

Another thing: Is it only me or is those alien ships a little "boring" ?
Should not Destiny soon hit for a sun?
If this series should last for more than another season they`d need a "new Destiny" at some point if this keeps up. I sure hope they find a way to fix the ship so it can have a chance fighting when they have to. At this time I am very disappointed with the shield and weapons Destiny have. I still have my hopes left.

[Lahela]

Then who should lead?
I have tried this question here so many times without getting a decent answer.

Because some people's answers differ from your own point of view? Then I suppose you'll never get a "decent" answer.

[harakiri]

Lahela :
No its not that I don`t know people have different opinions here,and I love that,but I just wanted a name for a person that could be a good or better leader. Not asking to be rude or anything,I just cant see anybody want Wray or Rush as a leader.
But I would love a third choice.. thats what am looking for. The reason is easy,I want to know if there is something I missing,someone that I have`nt thought about.

Sorry if you think I did not respect your opinion,that was not my intention at all.

[Gollumpus]

What rules does the military have for a mutiny made by civilians I don`t know. I guess there cant be any court-martial towards civilians,but this is a very special situation so who knows what can be done.

Maybe the word we could all be using in place of mutiny is "insurrection". Both deal with rebellion against an established authority, however, while mutiny is fairly specific in dealing with the revolt of a crew against their captain, insurrection deals with a general population rising against the authority which it is under. A gentle difference, but one which would permit Young (should he so chose) to deal very harshly with the civilians on board.

regards,
G.

[Lahela]

Lahela :
No its not that I don`t know people have different opinions here,and I love that,but I just wanted a name for a person that could be a good or better leader. Not asking to be rude or anything,I just cant see anybody want Wray or Rush as a leader.
But I would love a third choice.. thats what am looking for. The reason is easy,I want to know if there is something I missing,someone that I have`nt thought about.

Sorry if you think I did not respect your opinion,that was not my intention at all.

I totally agree that none of them would be ideal on their own - I wouldn't trust any of them with my life. That's partly why I think a cooperative arrangement would be best - they would each keep the others in check. Of course, that would require some serious compromising on all of their parts, hence my doubt that it'll ever actually happen.

I like that the conflict of leadership isn't easily solvable, no hero to swoop in and save them all from themselves.