how long would it take the people of Novus to recreate money/currency?

[slimjim]

I find your answers frustrating because I think you are playing Devil's Advocate. No matter what I say, you will take the opposite position.

So why do you ask questions and not discuss, just criticize? My point of view is valid, so tell me why you think yours' is. My statements are accepted facts. I don't require references and quotes from you, just a little insight to the fact that I'm considering the big picture.

All the differences you're worried about are trivial, that's the problem with humans. We get so caught up with sweating the small stuff we get in wars about it. How can you say that all these religions differ so greatly, when they all seek a God? If you were raised in a Catholic - Protestant family like I was, you would know how stupid the claims of who's got the right religion is. Governments all claim to keep the peace, serve and protect the people. All these institutions seek to fulfill human needs, and they take on many colors, but are all part of the same thing as colors are all part of the spectrum.

My statements are accepted facts

this stuff is far to vague and subjective be facts "This is the perfect example of why this world is so full of war and will continue that why. People seems to think they have something that is so unique and superior to others. If you study comparative religion, philosophies and culture you would realize that we are all the same. If you look at specifics, you can find the matching counterparts in any other human society as well"

I don't require references and quotes from you

what references and quotes have I given you?.....what the hell are you talking about here?

All the differences you're worried about are trivial, that's the problem with humans. We get so caught up with sweating the small stuff we get in wars about it. How can you say that all these religions differ so greatly, when they all seek a God? If you were raised in a Catholic - Protestant family like I was, you would know how stupid the claims of who's got the right religion is. Governments all claim to keep the peace, serve and protect the people. All these institutions seek to fulfill human needs, and they take on many colors, but are all part of the same thing as colors are all part of the spectrum.

"All these institutions seek to fulfill human needs" so what difference do intentions make? if a government is trying fulfil it's peoples needs the wrong way it's going to cause suffering

[thekillman]

what luxuries?

anything above the status quo. from a music instrument, to fancy clothings etc.

[slimjim]

from a music instrument, to fancy clothings etc.

my point exactly

[thekillman]

lux·u·ry? ?[luhk-shuh-ree, luhg-zhuh-] noun, plural -ries, adjective
noun
1.
a material object, service, etc., conducive to sumptuous living, usually a delicacy, elegance, or refinement of living rather than a necessity: Gold cufflinks were a luxury not allowed for in his budget.
2.
free or habitual indulgence in or enjoyment of comforts and pleasures in addition to those necessary for a reasonable standard of well-being: a life of luxury on the French Riviera.

my point exactly.


luxury is anything above the basic needs for life. practically everything we possess in real life, is luxury. from the phone you call with, to the TV you own, to the computer you currently view this page on, to snacks, fancy drinks, and what not

[slimjim]

my point exactly.


luxury is anything above the basic needs for life. practically everything we possess in real life, is luxury. from the phone you call with, to the TV you own, to the computer you currently view this page on, to snacks, fancy drinks, and what not

a bit of topic but you seem to be taking any thing that you can technically survive without as a luxury, when in fact a luxury is any think owned for pure pleasure rather then to help assure your you have and continue to have a good quality of life, I would argue that although many of their functions are pure luxuries phone, TVs and computer them selves are not due to their ability keep us in contact with and make preparations for possible consequences of things going on else where in the world

[thekillman]

a bit of topic but you seem to be taking any thing that you can technically survive without as a luxury, when in fact a luxury is any think owned for pure pleasure rather then to help assure your you have and continue to have a good quality of life, I would argue that although many of their functions are pure luxuries phone, TVs and computer them selves are not due to their ability keep us in contact with and make preparations for possible consequences of things going on else where in the world

let me nuance my statement:

Luxury is anything above the pure standard of life. while communication is arguably integral to our lives, there's having a phone, and having a smart phone.

Ultimately, luxury is relative to the status quo. for Novans, a simple instrument would be luxury. especially in the beginning.

i think Terra Nova is a good comparison here: the people there have to do community work, but money is used to buy luxury. instruments, additional batteries, etc. basically, you're provided with what you need for a decent life, and anything more simply costs money.

the people charged with hunting, don't you think they'd begin to charge people for a bit extra, like a rare (extra-tasty) animal? don't you think farmers would charge people for more than the usual ration of food? it won't happen initially, but i think that within the year or so, the first hints of money would exist.

it won't be a full-fledged monetary system. but money has a use. and it's not evil.

[jeri]

let me nuance my statement:

Luxury is anything above the pure standard of life. while communication is arguably integral to our lives, there's having a phone, and having a smart phone.

Ultimately, luxury is relative to the status quo. for Novans, a simple instrument would be luxury. especially in the beginning.

i think Terra Nova is a good comparison here: the people there have to do community work, but money is used to buy luxury. instruments, additional batteries, etc. basically, you're provided with what you need for a decent life, and anything more simply costs money.

the people charged with hunting, don't you think they'd begin to charge people for a bit extra, like a rare (extra-tasty) animal? don't you think farmers would charge people for more than the usual ration of food? it won't happen initially, but i think that within the year or so, the first hints of money would exist.

it won't be a full-fledged monetary system. but money has a use. and it's not evil.

Yes, I think the definition of luxury would be relative to circumstances. Not too long ago a mobile phone was considered a luxury to everyone, now it's almost mandatory to have one. In my grandparents' youth, having a phone in general was a luxury.
The definition of luxury changes as the civilization evolves.

[jeri]

slimjim All I’ve been talking about is the bigger picture, but you insist that my position is wrong because you want to talk about only the details, so you pronounce my statements as false because they aren’t what your looking for?

“this stuff is far to vague and subjective be facts” not if you're considering the big picture

“what the hell are you talking about” if you read the rest of the sentence and comprehend that I’m not saying you did and I don’t need you to, but that we are talking about to different concepts. We seem to be comparing apples and oranges.

[slimjim]

Ultimately, luxury is relative to the status quo. for Novans, a simple instrument would be luxury. especially in the beginning

I couldn't disagree more, if I have a phone and my next door neighbour doesn't that doesn't make my phone a luxury just because he's surviving without it, it means he's surviving without a necessity. pretty much every human who's ever lived survived without all the necessities of life

[slimjim]

Yes, I think the definition of luxury would be relative to circumstances. Not too long ago a mobile phone was considered a luxury to everyone, now it's almost mandatory to have one. In my grandparents' youth, having a phone in general was a luxury.
The definition of luxury changes as the civilization evolves.

no it hasn't it's always been something pleasurable but unnecessary for achieving a good quality of life, the reason what people consider a luxury changes is because people confuse a "good quality of life" with a "tolerable quality of life", and thus people wrongly assume that because their own quality is "good" (when it is in fact merely "tolerable") that anything that improves it must be a luxury. To put it another way mobile phones where a necessity in your grandparents' youth as they are now, they where just a necessity they serviced without, as I'm sure yet to be invented future technology is a necessity in our life

[slimjim]

slimjim All I’ve been talking about is the bigger picture, but you insist that my position is wrong because you want to talk about only the details, so you pronounce my statements as false because they aren’t what your looking for?

the details are what make something work or not work to the fullest

“this stuff is far to vague and subjective be facts” not if you're considering the big picture

a fact is something that been proven beyond reasonable and thus cannot be disagreed with by a rational person, are you say that you know why all the wars on earth are being fought so well that no one can disagree with you? are you saying that your interpretation of religion, philosophy and culture as being all the same is irrefutably correct?

“what the hell are you talking about” if you read the rest of the sentence and comprehend that I’m not saying you did and I don’t need you to, but that we are talking about to different concepts. We seem to be comparing apples and oranges.

so what eferences and quotes did you not want me to give you then?

[thekillman]

I couldn't disagree more, if I have a phone and my next door neighbour doesn't that doesn't make my phone a luxury just because he's surviving without it, it means he's surviving without a necessity. pretty much every human who's ever lived survived without all the necessities of life

if you consider a luxury a necessity, fine. i can only say you're wrong, as my arguments clearly do not come through to you.

To put it another way mobile phones where a necessity in your grandparents' youth as they are now, they where just a necessity they serviced without, as I'm sure yet to be invented future technology is a necessity in our life

look at my above reply. yes, you DEFINITELY mix up necessity and luxury.


makes me wonder though: what DO you consider a luxury?

the details are what make something work or not work to the fullest

All I’ve been talking about is the bigger picture,

then i can say you're both wrong.

the only way to make a system work, is to consider both. details do not work if you don't see the bigger picture, and your system is not defined until the details are known. and i can know this, since i just finished an exam about thinking like this.

are you say that you know why all the wars on earth are being fought so well that no one can disagree with you?

wars are fought, because people disagree and see no other possibility than to fight over it.

that's a universal truth you can not deny.

are you saying that your interpretation of religion, philosophy and culture as being all the same is irrefutably correct?

you do realize, that for many, Religion is narrowly tied to Culture, and perhaps even more closely tied to Philosophy?

hell, you could consider them three sides of the same coin. (and yes that's possible).

our culture is drenched in religion. and maybe not as obvious as it once was, but it still is. and our philosophy both stems from it and fuels it.

[slimjim]

if you consider a luxury a necessity, fine. i can only say you're wrong, as my arguments clearly do not come through to you.




look at my above reply. yes, you DEFINITELY mix up necessity and luxury.


makes me wonder though: what DO you consider a luxury?

I can only quote my self "no it hasn't it's always been something pleasurable but unnecessary for achieving a good quality of life, the reason what people consider a luxury changes is because people confuse a "good quality of life" with a "tolerable quality of life", and thus people wrongly assume that because their own quality is "good" (when it is in fact merely "tolerable") that anything that improves it must be a luxury. To put it another way mobile phones where a necessity in your grandparents' youth as they are now, they where just a necessity they serviced without, as I'm sure yet to be invented future technology is a necessity in our life"

our culture is drenched in religion. and maybe not as obvious as it once was, but it still is. and our philosophy both stems from it and fuels it.

If that's the case how come western philosophy pre-dates the dominant religion (Christianity) in the western world by about 500 years?

[thekillman]

If that's the case how come western philosophy pre-dates the dominant religion (Christianity) in the western world by about 500 years?

because Christianity borrows from it. it's not 3 loose pieces. they're connected. plus, the change in religion wasn't something abrupt.

I can only quote my self

the definition of a luxury i quoted states that it's above a reasonable quality of life.

communication is a necessity, yes, but there's absolutely no reason for it to be a telephone. mankind managed for millennia with mouth-to-mouth communication. however, there's a rough relation with the size of regions and the advancement of communication. IE, countries got bigger (stable countries) with better communication.


still, you haven't given details about what you consider a luxury. merely the general picture. which ironically is directly against your own words.

[slimjim]

because Christianity borrows from it. it's not 3 loose pieces. they're connected. plus, the change in religion wasn't something abrupt.

so your claiming western philosophy helped shape the theology that the early church used to decided what Christianity would be which then affected the ideas of later philosophers who lived in times when it wouldn't be allowed or it wouldn't occur to them to write philosophy that contradicted Christianity?

the definition of a luxury i quoted states that it's above a reasonable quality of life.

communication is a necessity, yes, but there's absolutely no reason for it to be a telephone. mankind managed for millennia with mouth-to-mouth communication. however, there's a rough relation with the size of regions and the advancement of communication. IE, countries got bigger (stable countries) with better communication.

the key word here being "managed", you can manage without arms

still, you haven't given details about what you consider a luxury. merely the general picture. which ironically is directly against your own words.

because it changes relative to a situation (but not in the way you guys meant) for example eating chocolate is luxury in our world because their are far healthier ways to get sugar into your body, however if you lived in a world where chocolate was the only way to get sugar then it would become a necessity