Simeon's murder of Ginn, if Jack Bauer were in similar situation...

[ckwongau]

One of the sadness SGU episode "Malice" , Just when Eli find Ginn , Simeon had murder her.
I hated Simeon.Then it hit me, was Simeon's murder of Ginn jusified .
I post it it .
Most people were against Simeon.

Then last night i had a thought.
If Jack Bauer were in similar situation, would you support it.

For example

Jack Bauer and Chloe O'Brian were send to some foreign ememy country for sabotage mission, they both got capture .Chloe O'Brian got seduce by the ememy agent, and start telling foreign govement secret that would endanger many people, including Jack 'own family and friend.

Jack Bauer then murder Chloe O'Brian and then escape .

Jack Bauer torture so many people, he would kill his closest friend if it would save million live.
So i believe Jack Bauer would kill Chloe O'Brian in a few seciond if the situation i describe had happen.


Would you support Jack Bauer 's action ? , the situation just like Simeon's murder of Ginn.

If support Jack Bauer 's action , then would you aslo support Simeon's action ?

why and why not?

[mr_kennedy]

We'll in that situation, idk i think jack might try a little more to take chloe alive and let the justice system do the rest, failing that yes i think he would have killed chloe

the difference here is chloe and jack were friends....... Simeon and Ginn were just people who had to work together, and also Simeon was more psychopathic then jack

if it were say....Tony? yes i could see that happening

One last thing........ the Lucian Alliance justice system is probably quite different to ours aswell thanks to years of being under goa'uld rule

[escyos]

Theres a difference between terrorists and anti-terrorists.

[KEK]

Simeon wasn't a terrorist, he was a prisoner of war.

[Gatefan1976]

Simeon wasn't a terrorist, he was a prisoner of war.

Exactly, and the "first Duty" of any prisoner of war is to escape. Just because Simion's ideals are "offensive" to us, does not invalidate that concept.

[escyos]

Simeon wasn't a terrorist, he was a prisoner of war.

Exactly, and the "first Duty" of any prisoner of war is to escape. Just because Simion's ideals are "offensive" to us, does not invalidate that concept.

what i meant was there was a differnece to a harden criminal like Simeon then a ,whatever Jack loser is, CIA or something...

[Huaracocha]

I remember your thread about this from last year, I'd be surprised if there's anything new to add.

It's still going to depend on whether you see the Lucian Alliance as a legitimate state actor - and therefore Simeon as a PoW and Ginn as a traitor - or whether you see them as a criminal organisation - in which case Simeon is a murderer and Ginn an informant.

The Jack Bauer analogy doesn't address the crux of this question about how we perceive the Lucian Alliance.

[morrismike]

Ginn was compelled to serve thru extortion (threats against family). That makes simeon a terrorist and ginn the victim.

[KEK]

Ginn was compelled to serve thru extortion (threats against family). That makes simeon a terrorist and ginn the victim.

Not really. You can't just attach the word terrorist to anyone who does something terrible, a terrorist is someone who tries to illegally affect political or ideological change using fear and/or violence, which doesn't really seem to be Simeon's MO. He's a nasty bastard, but as far as we know his actions are as legitimate as any other soldiers'.

[Gatefan1976]

Not really. You can't just attach the word terrorist to anyone who does something terrible, a terrorist is someone who tries to illegally affect political or ideological change using fear and/or violence, which doesn't really seem to be Simeon's MO. He's a nasty bastard, but as far as we know his actions are as legitimate as any other soldiers'.

Agree. This comes down to weather YOU (generic you) believe in the ideology behind the act. What are the LA? are they merely a bunch of drug lords who stepped into the void left by the Goa' uld (in which you could argue that despite the "evilness" of thier regime actually maintained a "status quo") and the SGC are evil for pursuing thier own ends in the MWG, or are the SGC "morally right" because YOU (again generic you) agree with thier motivations.

It's been said that the gods of one religion are the devils of the next, and this question really drives to the heart of that perception.

[Adventurous]

illegally affect political or ideological change

emphasis mine

And 'illegally' based on whose laws? Do the Geneva Conventions apply in outer space to people who've never been within a thousand light years of Earth, nevermind Geneva?

The LA as a whole certainly met some of the qualifications to be considered 'legal combatants' under the Conventions as they wore recognizable uniforms and had a rank structure of sorts.

The rest is something of a mixed bag, GC-wise. The ones we saw in SGU largely confined their aggression to military targets (with the notable exception of threatening the hostage civilian crew a time or two). If Ginn was telling the truth -- which she might or might not have been, she was definitely angling for the best possible deal -- then they conscripted conquered civilians, which is a no-no. Also a no-no is summary execution of unarmed POWs like Young and his troops, but it was pretty clear Dannic had gone rogue by that point and even then Varro could and did countermand the order.

Getting back to Simeon, did he qualify as a POW? I would say yes. Was his killing of Ginn 'legit?' I would say no. She was (again, provided she was telling the truth) not a fellow soldier 'betraying the cause' but effectively an escaped slave giving information on her former masters. I would disapprove of Ginn's murder in that context even if I agreed with Simeon's (or Bauer's) ideology in general.


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[morrismike]

Do we even know that the LA is a nation or are they a simple criminal organization like al queda? If the LA is not a nation then they are terrorists. Dealing drugs and piracy is criminal. Inflicting terror upon a nation is terrorism.

[KEK]

Do we even know that the LA is a nation or are they a simple criminal organization like al queda? If the LA is not a nation then they are terrorists. Dealing drugs and piracy is criminal. Inflicting terror upon a nation is terrorism.

Under what law? And if the lack of nation status is all that is needed to define their actions as terrorism as opposed to legitimate, then it's a completely arbitrary distinction to begin with. Besides, it's not like the LA have done anything worse that the Tau'ri have done. In fact their exploits are pretty tame by comparison.

[morrismike]

Under what law? And if the lack of nation status is all that is needed to define their actions as terrorism as opposed to legitimate, then it's a completely arbitrary distinction to begin with. Besides, it's not like the LA have done anything worse that the Tau'ri have done. In fact their exploits are pretty tame by comparison.

They tried to obliterate the capital city of the only superpower on earth. If they are not a nation, then that is terrorism. If they are a nation then we should approach the other MW powers and have them talk it over and explain to LA that the next action by us is to MK IX their major population areas as a lesson.

[Gatefan1976]

They tried to obliterate the capital city of the only superpower on earth. If they are not a nation, then that is terrorism. If they are a nation then we should approach the other MW powers and have them talk it over and explain to LA that the next action by us is to MK IX their major population areas as a lesson.

Normally I would be on the same page as you Morrismike, but in this case I agree with KEK. If you look at the actions that the SGC have performed against the Goa' uld, sending small groups of heavily armed combat personel to disrupt and destroy key targets, the SGC are the "terrorists". You can hardly cry "foul" when the very same tactics employed by yourself in the past are used against you.

In this case "morality" is very much in the eye of the beholder.